posted
Guess what? Public policy can most definitely be defined by church/religion.
Why do you think its illegal to murder(Thou shalt not murder), lie under oath(Thou shalt not bear false witness), stealing(thou shalt not steal) etc etc?
It is, of course, why our nation(the US) was built upon the 10 Commandments. Morality is absolute, not relative.
posted
Omega: Here I reply to your last post with what is essentially a rant that tries to explain, and justify, what I think with an analogy.
Imagine, for a minute, that the world is the exact same as it is now, except for a specific difference. Christianity has been replaced by a belief in Santa Claus, with "Catholics" believing rigidly in Santa Claus, and his wife Mrs. Claus. However, the "Protestants" believe in Father Christmas, and contest the fact that there is a Mrs. Claus. The "Muslims" have their own word for Santa Claus, and believe strongly in Rudolph the Red-nosed reindeer, gathering at midday to kneel in the direction of the north pole and write their letters to Santa Claus. The "Hindus" believe in no Santa Claus, but instead believe in various elves who do the same job as Santa Claus. There is no proof of Santa Claus, but people put out presents for their children every Christmas in a re-enactment of an ancient ritual, when it is said that Santa Claus himself used to bring presents.
Now, you are among the section of the population that doesn't believe in Santa Claus at all, it seems painfully obvious to you that there is no such thing. The very concept is ludicrous, in your eyes. The fact that so much of the world's population believes in what is patently a children's story astonishes you.
This however, doesn't stop all these factions fighting each other, even killing each other, in an attempt to make all see that their vision of Santa Claus is the true one. You are apalled when you think of the resources wasted by this ridiculous belief, by people travelling to their weekly ceremonies, where toys are offered at the foot of the chapel chimney, and believed to symbolize toys made by Santa Claus himself.
It doesn't stop there. Not only do these Santa Claus believers come to your door and preach that you should also believe, but they want to change government policy, they disapprove of contraception, saying that Santa Claus needs to have lots of children to deliver toys to when He returns. You disagree with this. You think it's a bad thing that these people, who oppose your view, are allowed to say what they think. Some guy notices this and says, "Why don't you just let these people say what they think, they're not harming anyone?". You reply, "Since when does ignorance not harm anyone?".
-------------------- "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Well, I think that that sums it up pretty well...
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:It is, of course, why our nation(the US) was built upon the 10 Commandments.
Well, JeffR, if this is true, then it just goes to showing what hipocrites the Founding Fathers were ... not only did they own slaves while at the same time proclaiming all men equal; but they also apparently only meant 'Christian' religions when they spoke about the freedom of religion. Now, maybe you don't really know what you were talking about when you wrote that, so essentially: either you're a moron, or you just proved another point about the falibility of the F.F.
JeffR: important lesson for you to learn. Freedom of religion means ANY religion.
Many countries in the world have the same sort of laws, and very few of them believe in the Ten Commandments. The Bible is not the sole source of "morality" (not to even start with all the internal conflicts), and to pretend otherwise is simply ignorant.
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." --George Washington
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." --Thomas Paine
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --Thomas Jefferson
"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." --Abraham Lincoln
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
"Why do you think its illegal to murder(Thou shalt not murder), lie under oath(Thou shalt not bear false witness), stealing(thou shalt not steal) etc etc?"
Could it just be that those are very good ideas which are highly beneficial to society in general, and therefore they tend to be common among most sets of laws, be they governmental or rligious laws...?
quote: And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
George Washington.
Just goes to show that the U.S. was founded by (gasp!) human beings just like you and me, who were sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
posted
I suppose you misunderstand my point. Morality- in this, Christian morality- served as a basis by the founding fathers.
"Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." - John Adams
"Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indespensable supports." - George Washington
"We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future... upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
My point still stands- Religion can influence and define public policy.
I did not say to deport all Christians- though I'm sure Sol was just trying to be humorous.. I did not say anything about the Founding Fathers credibility, so why are you bringing that in?
quote: "Could it just be that those are very good ideas which are highly beneficial to society in general, and therefore they tend to be common among most sets of laws, be they governmental or religious laws...?"
Which is why I believe that Morality is absolute.
quote: "Morality is absolute, not relative." No. Wrong. INCORRECT. This is FALSE, on the grounds that it cannot be proven. Go ahead and try. If anyone tells you what your morals should be, ignore them, because they are lying.
Just because it cannot be proven at this time does not make it false! Want an example? Theory of Relativity, Theory of Evolution. Niether one can be proven definitely, but they fit so well it is possible they are true. But they're still unproven to definition. Furthermore, if morality is relative, then I suppose I can kill you and your family, because according to my morality its OK to do so. If anyone else says otherwise, I should ignore them then.
Sol- interesting quote.
[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Raven ]
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Printer-friendly view of this topic
