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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » Oh, For Argument's Sake ... another AIM chat with Ommie -- mucho fun (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Oh, For Argument's Sake ... another AIM chat with Ommie -- mucho fun
Malnurtured Snay
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quote:
Don't cut me off and I won't cut you off

Better yet, don't cut me off and I won't gun ahead, cut in front of you, and drop fifty sharp spikes from behind my car to blow your tires off.

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www.malnurturedsnay.net


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OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
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Whatever Jeff, I made my point and it was only an example, and it needed not sarcasm.

The point has been made. Moving on...

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If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.


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Malnurtured Snay
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Sue me for watching "Tommorow Never Dies" ... yeeeesh.

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The_Tom
recently silent
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OK.

Tom decided to hop aboard the "family unit caravan of fun" for a ten-day sojourn from the land of ice and snow to the land of guns and Wal-Marts. I thought it would be, shall we say, droll, for me not to give a big long explanation to all my online compatriots and just quietly slip off and slip back and leave nobody the wiser.

Firstly, some lessons learned from the vacation:

  • Wyoming is the must fucking boring excuse of a state ever concieved of. Toss Yellowstone and Jackson Hole into Montana and you could write the whole place off.

  • The Canadian Rockies out my window right now are far better-looking chunks of rock than those visible from the $10m homes in Aspen.

  • Vail is big.

  • Dogs are allowed inside the Colorado State Capitol. Mine took great pleasure in resting his groin against the cool marble on the stairs.

  • Chandra Levy is alive and well in Gallatin National Forest. I swear.

  • Hailstorms come out of nowhere at 12000 ft. Never wear a T-shirt.

  • Bozeman does not have a large flashing sign on the Interstate that says "Come see the Brannon Braga Museum." Crobato, take note, I did not pull over in search of anal pleasures.

  • Bush makes dumb decisions even when I take my cranial powers across the border. There was a rather lovely little interview with him in USA Today where he talks about bringing in an "arbolist" to find out the names of the trees growing on his Crawford Ranch.

    Anyway, enough about that. About this.

    While this thread does make something of positive swing towards a decent discussion about the issues in the later pages, I must point out that at or soon after its inception this thread was little more than another chapter in our favorite ongoing soap opera.

    The Flameboard is not a venue for making a serialized pissing match public. This isn't to say that what Jeff posted was utterly reprehensible garbage, because I find it quite an engrossing snapshot of Omega and Jeff's views on a legitimate issue. Had the thread, *gasp* been posted with the clear intention of being about the shrinking surplus first and the width of Omega's mother's ass second, then I'd have no qualms with it, but I think we can all agree that somewhere along the line it veered well off a legitimate exercise in public discourse and into the equivalent of locking James Carville and Jesse Helms in a steel ball with Anne Robinson and rolling it down a hill.

    Anyway, thankfully while Tom was driving through Glenwood Springs, Colorado the thread managed to reassert itself as a near-decent piece of public discource, and it should continue on as such.

    End pontification. Resume screaming match.

    --------------------
    "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)


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  • Jay the Obscure
    Liker Of Jazz
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    Back in the day...10 December 1948 to be exact, the United Nations General Assembly adopted Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Part of which reads:

    quote:
    Preamble
    Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world....

    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.


    The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights adopted by the General Assembly on 16 December 1966 clarified that somewhat. The Preamble of which reads:

    quote:
    PREAMBLE

    The States Parties to the present Covenant, Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

    Recognizing that these rights derive from the inherent dignity of the human person,

    Recognizing that, in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social and cultural rights,

    Considering the obligation of States under the Charter of the United Nations to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and freedoms,

    Realizing that the individual, having duties to other individuals and to the community to which he belongs, is under a responsibility to strive for the promotion and observance of the rights recognized in the present Covenant....


    Human rights are inherent (existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic) and inalienable (incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred to another) part of humanity.

    Now I'm not so sure that that would mean so much to a Neanderthal or someone sitting in the Dark Ages without a candle to read with. But humanity is equipped reason and conscience and what those have so gloriously helped us to achieved is culture and civilization and to a discernment understanding of inherent rights.

    [ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]



    --------------------
    Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
    ~ohn Adams

    Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
    ~Brad DeLong

    You're just babbling incoherently.
    ~C. Montgomery Burns

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    Da_bang80
    A few sectors short of an Empire
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    umm... cause i don't pay attention to US politics, i just wanna know if the CIA has been infiltrated by extra-terrestrial espionage networks yet?

    --------------------
    Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
    The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
    And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

    Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

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    Malnurtured Snay
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    Yes.

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    Nim
    The Aardvark asked for a dagger
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    It's renamed the M.I.B now, yes.

    --------------------
    "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!"
    Mel Gibson, X-Men

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    Malnurtured Snay
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    One good thing about MIB being banned: we don't have to listen to him bragging about having Krenim's Red Button locked in his basement.

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    Nim
    The Aardvark asked for a dagger
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    -Diplomatic immuniteee!

    *boingboingboing*

    -It's just been revoked!

    --------------------
    "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!"
    Mel Gibson, X-Men


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    First of Two
    Better than you
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    quote:
    bringing in an "arbolist" to find out the names of the trees

    Hm. Whose error IS that? an "arborist" is a person who specializes in the care of trees. So did Bush stutter, the article writer mishear (or miswrite), or the printer make a typo?

    Poopie.

    --------------------
    "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword


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    Omega
    Some other beginning's end
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    Or maybe W actually said "arbalest", and was simply getting two obscure words mixed up.

    Honestly, people, if you can't come up with a real objection to this president, why even try?

    --------------------
    "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
    - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"


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    Malnurtured Snay
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    quote:
    Or maybe W actually said "arbalest", and was simply getting two obscure words mixed up.

    Well, gee, yet someone else who needs to check their facts before saying something. Remind you of the person who posted the previous ... well, post?

    quote:
    Honestly, people, if you can't come up with a real objection to this president, why even try?

    Having an idiot for a president is a real objection. There are other arguments as well, but since your basic arguement against a politician is always "they're lying scum" (and refusing to apologize about said comment when you're proved to be the "lying, un-fact checking scum") I don't see why I should have to elaborate further.

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]



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    Malnurtured Snay
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    Just to jump us back to the original topic for a moment:

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- This year's federal budget surplus has plunged to $153 billion because of the nation's economic doldrums and the Bush administration's tax cut, meaning the federal government will have to cover $9 billion of spending by dipping into Social Security, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected Tuesday.

    The new estimate for the federal surplus is sharply lower -- off by 44 percent --- from the $275 billion figure the CBO was predicting just three months ago. The reduction means that President Bush and congressional lawmakers will be hard pressed to keep their pledge not to use Social Security funds for any other government spending, save for a planned, steady retirement of the government's outstanding debt.

    The CBO projected Tuesday that, if current spending habits aren't changed, the Social Security surplus would be dipped into again in 2003, for $18 billion, and in 2004, for $3 billion. The congressional accounting office projects a return to overall budget surpluses large enough to spare the Social Security fund in later years.

    What's in a 'surplus'?
    The U.S. figures its annual bottom line by including all tax revenues - including taxes that can only be used to pay Social Security benefits. If revenues fall short, the government has customarily borrowed from Social Security.

    Here's the math behind the Congressional Budget Office prediction:

    $153 billion = Total budget surplus
    $162 billion = Off-budget surpluses*
    $9 billion = Shortfall

    *Includes Social Security trust funds as well as the net cash flow of the Postal Service

    What's the impact?
    If Congressional Budget Office estimates are correct and the government needs to borrow from the Social Security trust fund, here are the effects of the move:

    Social Security benefits are not affected.

    Money taken out of the trust fund would be credited to the Social Security account.

    It could slow down the pace of paying off long-term debt.

    For the 10-year period from 2002 to 2011, the CBO calculates the nation will have a total surplus of $3.4 trillion -- three-quarters of which would be made up of excess monies in the Social Security trust fund. That number, however, is $2.2 trillion less than was projected just last May, and the reason for most of that drop is the $1.35 trillion tax cut championed by President Bush.

    The new numbers offer a dimmer view of the federal budget than that provided by the White House Office of Management and Budget last week. The Bush administration has pointed out that the overall surplus is the second largest in the nation's history, and argues it is just big enough this fiscal year -- which ends September 30 -- to barely avoid use of Social Security funds.

    That is politically significant because both Bush and congressional lawmakers from both parties have pledged to avoid dipping into the retirement fund reserve. So, although the surplus remains large by historical standards, the pledge makes most of it off-limits, because it is made up of Social Security receipts.

    In past years, before the recent spate of robust surpluses, the federal government routinely dipped into the Social Security surplus for additional spending money. But in recent years, in light of questions about the viability of the retirement program in the coming decades, both Democrats and Republicans vowed to leave the fund alone, and only use that money to pay off the national debt.

    Social Security's future
    Should the new CBO estimates be borne out, the $9 billion taken from the Social Security Trust Fund will not have an immediate effect on disbursement of benefit checks. Money will continue to flow to beneficiaries every month, and the program will continue to take in more than it pays out annually.

    But, Social Security won't stay flush with the looming retirement of the nation's 76 million "baby boomers." In the course of the next decade, more people will be drawing benefit checks, and fewer will be paying into the system. Social Security is at risk of running a deficit.

    Many lawmakers of both parties -- and interest groups representing sectors of the population that expect Social Security to be available to them later in this century -- are concerned that continued use of the Social Security surplus for other government spending will jeopardize their retirement security.

    President Bush has suggested his campaign proposal to allow individuals to invest some of their Social Security payroll taxes in the stock market could allay some of these fears. He has convened his Commission to Strengthen Social Security to deliberate over suggestions for modernization.

    Shrinking federal surplus estimates, meanwhile, have prompted fears that the United States will not be able to pay down its long-term debt in the same time period.

    The new CBO numbers project it will now be 2010 before the debt can be retired. In May, that was expected to happen in 2006.

    Dems blame tax cut
    Democrats have been quick to use the new budget numbers as backing for a claim they have been making for months -- that the Bush tax cut is too costly, especially in tandem with the administration's proposals to increase spending for defense, education and other programs.

    Sen. Kent Conrad, D-North Dakota, who is chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, cautioned that the CBO projections do not include Bush's proposed spending over the next decade on items such as defense and education.

    "When you put those together, what you find is that the invasion of the trust funds is far more serious than has been reported so far, far more serious," Conrad said on Tuesday.


    "This is their spending plan. This is their tax plan. They have created this problem," he said of Bush and Republicans in Congress. "They have an obligation to tell us -- for example, when the president asks for $18 billion more for defense next year -- how is he going to pay for it?"

    But administration officials and congressional Republicans have defended their priorities and last week's OMB numbers, and say the president's plan will continue to protect the Social Security surplus. GOP lawmakers have said over the past few weeks, as news of the dwindling surplus surfaced, that the tax cut will help to stimulate the economy, and the biggest threat to the surplus is too much spending by Congress.

    "The budget is tight, and that is exactly where we want it to be and where we need it to be," said Rep. Jim Nussle, the Iowa Republican who is the House Budget Committee chairman. Nussle noted that much of the surplus was used for tax relief, to put money back in the hands of the taxpayers. He said Congress should be able to garner savings by going after excessive government spending.

    Nussle stressed the new numbers are only projections, which he noted are often wrong, as they were in May. "The books aren't closed," he said. "This is a weather report. You've got to wait for the weather to happen."

    Rough road ahead
    The debate over the dwindling surplus and the budget will likely be the main order of business when both the White House and Congress return from their far-flung vacation destinations next week.

    At the top of Congress's 'to do' list in the coming weeks will be completion of the 13 yearly appropriations bills, which will determine how the nation's $2 trillion, fiscal 2002 budget will be spent. The new budget numbers are bound to be a critical factor in the budget battles over that new spending. Already, Democrats have questioned whether the nation can afford some of Bush's spending priorities, in particular the proposed boost for defense spending.

    Part of the difference in the estimates between the CBO and the OMB is accounted for by differences in economic forecasts. Last week, OMB predicted the national economy would rebound at the end of this year -- or the beginning of the next -- and grow at a healthy clip of 3.6 percent next year.

    The CBO is predicting that the nation will avoid falling into a recession, but its prediction for economic growth next year is considerably lower, just 2.6 percent.

    -- CNN's Manuel Perez-Rivas and Ian Christopher McCaleb contributed to this report.

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]



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    Omega
    Some other beginning's end
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    The new estimate for the federal surplus is sharply lower -- off by 44 percent --- from the $275 billion figure the CBO was predicting just three months ago.

    CBO projections are worthless. According to earlier projections, we should be running a massive deficit right now. But of course, they were going on the assumption that Clinton's policies would be continued when they said that, so...

    This year's federal budget surplus has plunged to $153 billion because of the nation's economic doldrums and the Bush administration's tax cut, meaning the federal government will have to cover $9 billion of spending by dipping into Social Security, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected Tuesday.

    I fail to see how anyone can not see the inherent stupidity in this paragraph. Why, if we're running a massive surplus, would we possibly need to take money from one program to use it somewhere else?

    The U.S. figures its annual bottom line by including all tax revenues - including taxes that can only be used to pay Social Security benefits. If revenues fall short, the government has customarily borrowed from Social Security.

    There's a confusing, poorly written paragraph.

    Democrats have been quick to use the new budget numbers as backing for a claim they have been making for months -- that the Bush tax cut is too costly, especially in tandem with the administration's proposals to increase spending for defense, education and other programs.

    Yet more evidence that they're lying scum. The Bush budget won't go into effect until October. We're operating off of Clinton's last budget. Blame him. And I would point out that the tax cut has a total effect of $40 billion this year, which is only a minor portion of the decrease in the surplus. Under any circumstances, Dachele wanted $60 billion. Gephardt wanted $80 billion. So why are they complaining? Their tax cuts would have had a "worse" effect on this year's surplus.

    "They have an obligation to tell us -- for example, when the president asks for $18 billion more for defense next year -- how is he going to pay for it?"

    With the massive surplus, perhaps?

    Already, Democrats have questioned whether the nation can afford some of Bush's spending priorities, in particular the proposed boost for defense spending.

    I will say this one more time.

    We. Have. A. Frikin'. Surplus.

    A. MASSIVE. Frikin' Surplus.

    Yes, it's shrinking, but that's the idea! A surplus is, by definition, unbugeted money. "Oh, but we can't fund XXX existing program without the surplus!" Yes, you CAN! The budget pays for it. The surplus is EXTRA.

    --------------------
    "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
    - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"


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