quote:This was one of the most revolting punishments ever devised by the human imagination and even in those days was hardly ever used. The penal code of Charles V did not make provision for it. In the manual Punishments of Life and Limb..., we find the following: 'In barbaric regions, particularly in Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Salee, where inveterate pirates dwell, if a man is thought guilty of treason, he is impaled. This is done by inserting a sharply pointed stake into his posterior, which then is forced through his body, emerging through the head, sometimes through the throat. This stake is then inverted and planted in the ground, so that the wretched victims live on in agony for some days before expiring. . . .
It is said that nowadays not so much trouble is taken with impalement as once the case, but such criminals simply have a short spit thrust into their anus and are left to crawl thus upon the earth until they die.' We may well imagine that such a barbaric punishment was calculated to arouse sympathy for the tormented victim among the spectators of an execution. This was no doubt the reason it was not generally employed"
Kunze, Michael. Highroad to the Stake: A Tale of Witchcraft. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1987.
posted
First off, crucifixion didn't normally involve nails. People were tied w/ ropes. And Isho' didn't take a few days to suffocate. He died in three hours.
So, Yahweh can't be in the presence of sin, eh? Wouldn't that mean that, every time Isho' was around a sinner, all the god-ness had to go out of him? Meaning that he would only be human? And incapable of forgiving the person's sins? So, the Pharisees were right: he was blaspheming.
"...what is [Rob's] girl's one chance of being free of her pain? And who can do it for her?"
posted
And I thought that "Jebus" was annoying, but you've beaten yourself here Tim.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
What, by saying "Isho'"? If you don't want me using his real name, I'll have to stop calling you "Liam", too. How about "Bernadette"? Or "Widget"?
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
So, Yahweh can't be in the presence of sin, eh? Wouldn't that mean that, every time Isho' was around a sinner, all the god-ness had to go out of him?
That's taking the trinity aspect a bit too far. Jesus was part of the Godhead, but not GOD God. There are three seperate consiousnesses involved. God the Father is the source of life. Christ, who was the perfect sacrafice, is the bridge that allows us to access that source, regardless of sin.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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"Should we then keep sinning, so that grace may increase? You be whack, man!"
- Paul, Ebonic Translation
Yes, we CAN be forgiven for almost anything, if we accept the forgiveness, but that doesn't necessarily remove worldly consequences. I kill someone, then find God, sure I go to heaven, bt I still get executed here.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
quote:I kill someone, then find God, sure I go to heaven
Ahhh... how convenient. There are a few right-wing Christian fundies I have always wanted to get rid of...
quote:Even the omnipotent have limits, both of their nature and of their goals.
Then the omnipotent aren't omnipotent. Thus, no point in worshipping.
quote:Forcing us into worship would defeat the entire purpose of creating us
An omnipotent being wouldn't have to force us; watch the scene in TNG's True-Q where Amanda Rogers makes Riker fall in love with her.
Also, when you're omnipotent 'n all, you don't really give a fuck about a bunch of mere mortals drooling over your presence (unless you were bored, but since you're omnipotent, you can alter your own mood at will) or not. But then, you'd already know that before you had even created a single molecule.
Omnipotence, BTW, is a concept. Similar to mathematical infinity. Something that can be approached, but never reached. Therefore, referring to any being as 'god' is futile. I.E.: no reason to worship.
quote:Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Think about it Ommie.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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shouldn't everyone's overiding desire in life be to die ... ?
To die is gain, as Paul said. But I'm here to serve God, not my own ends, and I can only do that so long as I'm alive.
Then the omnipotent aren't omnipotent. Thus, no point in worshipping.
How do you define whether someone is worthy of worship?
watch the scene in TNG's True-Q where Amanda Rogers makes Riker fall in love with her.
Yes; she forced him, and decided it was pointless unless he chose it.
Also, when you're omnipotent 'n all, you don't really give a fuck about a bunch of mere mortals drooling over your presence
God doesn't want the worship. He want's you, ALIVE, and the only way he can get that is if you love Him, and accept His gift. That leads to worship. It's like the bit about how we're not saved by works, but that if we ARE saved, there WILL be works. Cause and effect.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
posted
'What, by saying "Isho'"? If you don't want me using his real name, I'll have to stop calling you "Liam", too. How about "Bernadette"? Or "Widget"?'
Well, I could point out that almost everyone calls me "Liam" (Or "Sexy monkey beast-boy"), and almost everyone in the Western World calls the Son of God "Jesus", but, eh.
If Isho's his realy name, why were you calling him Jebus a few months back anyway?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Nor does your belief that 'God and Sin cannot coexist' make any sense.
"Sin" if defined as 'disobedience to God' existed in the universe before the Fall of Man (as proved by the examples of the Big Red L, and the Serpent), and thusly man could not have been responsible for it.
If God could not act in the Sin-filled Universe without Christ as an intermediary (as you stated above,) how do you explain the ENTIRE Post-first-few-chapters-of-Genesis Old Testament, which is chock-full of Acts of God? For that matter, how could Christ have been born, without a force acting upon that little part of the sinful universe?
And what is this 'lived imperfectly' bullshit? CHILDREN, for fuck's sake! INFANTS! They haven't had a CHANCE to live yet! How can their lives be judged 'imperfect' before they are born? That's crap. Fucking predestination crap.
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"Sin" if defined as 'disobedience to God' existed in the universe before the Fall of Man
Yes, but not in any creation that was part of the universe. Satan already existed.
If God could not act in the Sin-filled Universe without Christ as an intermediary (as you stated above,) how do you explain the ENTIRE Post-first-few-chapters-of-Genesis Old Testament, which is chock-full of Acts of God? For that matter, how could Christ have been born, without a force acting upon that little part of the sinful universe?
God can't be in the presence of sin. The universe ITSELF did not sin, because it's not consious. So God CAN act in the universe, but not in the direct spiritual presence of a human. Further, don't confuse physical presence with spiritual presence.
And what is this 'lived imperfectly' bullshit? CHILDREN, for fuck's sake! INFANTS! They haven't had a CHANCE to live yet! How can their lives be judged 'imperfect' before they are born?
They're conceived into a hostile universe. They don't HAVE to have done anything. Remeber, Christ lived perfectly a LOT longer, and still died.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
quote:They're conceived into a hostile universe. They don't HAVE to have done anything.
Exactly. And that's stupid and unjust.
Y'know, it occurs to me that any omnipotent being that can create ONE universe can create another.
At the time this universe initially got screwed up, there were only two people in it.
Obviously, God is not a programmer...
Create Universe 1.0 Save backup file. Run Universe 1.0 Universe 1.0 Crashes. Delete File. Edit Universe 1.0 (delete Serpent, Tree of Knowledge) Create Universe 2.0 Run Universe 2.0 Continue process until all bugs fixed.
Would have been a far more logical (and merciful) thing to do than continue to run a buggy universe that dooms the majority of the beings who enter into it.
On another tack... why are people born, anyway? More meat for the grinder? Experience points?
"Man, these 2 humans REALLY screwed this universe up... I'd better snip their procreative systems, so that they won't doom any offspring to the same fate."
See, that's the problem. Your God doesn't do OBVIOUS things that would preclude suffering, things that any mildly intelligent human being would think of.
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