posted
Something like morse code perhaps? A long stripe with shorter ones?
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posted
bingo.
while we realistically know that the costuming just didnt have a contingency for showing the difference in the ranks, and this wasn't their intention, this supposition would satisfy the larger requirement that the movie remain concurrent with the later (and earlier) trek/military universe. it explains the mistake, in a way that doesnt invalidate any of the supporting facts (unless we look really closely, but why should we..)
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quote:like how were they supposed to tell non-coms apart in TOS with no stripe ensigns?
Not at all. According to Gene Roddenberry all people in TOS were officers. However, now that we have NCOs in the later shows, this is kinda silly.
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and the problem now is that, retroactively, non-com ranks have been placed in the TOS era. as early as TMP, when publicity materials established Rand's rank of 'Chief Petty Officer' and as being a 'promotion' for her, when she returned to the fold of the Enterprise crew.
Roddenberry's offhand remark cannot be reconciled with onscreen evidence that Rand was indeed not an officer until after TMP, necessitating that she be non-commissioned during the original series. and i can hardly imagine some sort of radical services reorganization between 2270 at the end of the FYM and the movies that created dozen of new ranks and positions that never existed before.
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If we assume that NCOs existed during TOS, we'll have a problem with the stripe-less people. If we assume that NCOs didn't exist during TOS, we'll have a problem with Rand and the other shows.
Same goes for TMP.
If we assume Lt. JG existed during TMP, we'll have a problem with the rank insignia. If we assume Lt. JG didn't exist during TMP, it'll be very hard to explain it.
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posted
Spikey, I'm sure even you must agree that Roddenberry's little bit about there being no non-coms in Starfleet in the TOS era is complete and utter bull's excrement.
And, as to the ensign with the broken stripe in TMP, is this really any worse than Spock wearing a full commander's stripes and actually being a Lt. Cmdr. in the first season of TOS?
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quote:Spike, I'm sure even you must agree that Roddenberry's little bit about there being no non-coms in Starfleet in the TOS era is complete and utter bull's excrement.
That depends on the time you ask me.
In the 1960s it didn't cause any problems. In the here and now and considering the other shows, his statement is outdated.
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quote:Originally posted by Spike: But what rank insignia do they have, when a broken stripe is for Ensigns and a full stripe is for Lieutenants?
Personally, I don't have a problem with this, since in TOS the broken stripe equalled Lt JG. Thus I'm quite happy to ignore any snafus in the costuming and assume it still stands for Lt JG, and no stripe is Ensign.
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posted
Or then the color of the uniform in combination with the broken stripe was the decisive factor.
Ensign in current militaries is a rank you skim over, with a near-instant promotion to Lt(jg) unless you are utterly hopeless and unfit for duty. This wasn't true in Hornblower's navy, nor is it true in the TNG era. But if it was true in TOS, it would make sense for Ensign to be "Lt(jg)-in-waiting", and the two ranks could then well have near-identical markings. An Ensign would just have to wear his markings on an ugly "training uniform" which immediately revealed his lowly status, while a Lt(jg) would wear any of the normal uniforms.
Not that I'd believe any of that bull. IMHO, the "Ensign" in TMP had just recently been promoted, and Uhura just hadn't familiarized herself with the fact. Or then "N'synge" was the name of the Lieutenant. (Our local military has a charismatic public-relations Lt. Colonel whose surname translates as "Major", which means the average TV-watching Finn is either thoroughly educated in military ranks, or then thoroughly confused!).
posted
His name means "major", and they promoted him to lieutenant colonel? Obviously, the Finnish military do not take their cue from Jospeh Heller...
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quote:Originally posted by Captain... Mike: and the problem now is that, retroactively, non-com ranks have been placed in the TOS era. as early as TMP, when publicity materials established Rand's rank of 'Chief Petty Officer' and as being a 'promotion' for her, when she returned to the fold of the Enterprise crew.
Roddenberry's offhand remark cannot be reconciled with onscreen evidence that Rand was indeed not an officer until after TMP, necessitating that she be non-commissioned during the original series. and i can hardly imagine some sort of radical services reorganization between 2270 at the end of the FYM and the movies that created dozen of new ranks and positions that never existed before.
Not to mention that Roddenberry put Chief Petty Officer Garrison aboard Pike's Enterprise, set some sixteen years earlier.
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