posted
Yep. That's what happened. In the Stargazer book series, he was the second officer of the ship. The captain was killed, the XO incapacitated, so he had to command the ship. He got the crew through a crisis, survived a mutiny, and was promoted to captain upon return to starbase and after an investigation.
-------------------- I haul cardboard and cardboard accessories
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
Well, the question I have is, "was Picard REALLY a captain in rank or a captain in position?" I have a feeling it's the latter. Think about it: once again, the day is saved by LT Picard. After due investigation of the situation, it's decided to award Picard command of Stargazer due to his valorius service. With said command, he's promoted to minimum command rank for a line vessel, that being lieutenant commander. So now LCDR Picard has his ship & then has 22 years about the same ship to be successively promoted up the ranks.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Shik: With said command, he's promoted to minimum command rank for a line vessel, that being lieutenant commander.
Although what about the Lieutenant Junior Grade Captain of the Nebula-class Prometheus?
(Actually, thinking about it, what the "fuck" was going on with that ship anyway?)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Maybe Seyetik's wife's alter egos were killing off the crewmembers, and she'd killed everyone in the chain of command down to that guy. But, since the projected alter egos weren't really there, no-one ever found the killer.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
. . . which proves the axiom "there's always one." 8)
I likewise also believe that in theory Starfleet SHOULD have Captains-by-Position who aren't actually Captains-by-Rank. Unfortunately every small ship we've ever seen - various Saratogas, the Reliant, even Voyager, to name a few - have completely ignored this idea. Unless CbPs are allowed to wear the insignia of a CbR when confirmed in command (after all, Data didn't start wearing Captain's bars or even a Command uniform in "Gambit.")
posted
No, but he did put on a red uniform in "Chain of Command", for some reason.
I also don't think that the Reliant counts as a "small" ship. It looked to be at least as equally well armed as the Enterprise. It just lacked a secondary hull.
The Grissom works better as a small ship, but that still has a captain by rank in charge. Even if he was useless.
In fact, the Nebula-Promethius is the only instance I can think of where a Captain of a ship hasn't held that rank. And that was a big ship.
(I know Tim was joking, but the worrying thing it that in TOS's time, that theory would have been perfectly plausable. Likely, even.)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Don't forget Lt. Cmdr. Dax, who was captain of the Defiant for some time, or Lt. Cmdr. Data, commanding the Sutherland. And last but not least Cadet/Captain Watters of the Valiant.
quote:No, but he did put on a red uniform in "Chain of Command", for some reason.
Probably because Jellico was so formal. At least he ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform. Her normal uniforms were quite embarrassing. Anyone remember the scene in "The Ensigns of Command"?
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Actually, after I posted I did think that the earlier Saratoga and the Reliant could probably be discounted as small ships given Starfleet was a lot smaller back then. The Grissom is a far better example.
And Data wearing Command red in "CoC" isn't a valid example in my opinion - he was only doing so as First Officer, and had been confirmed as such by the Captain. Just like Riker only got a third pip in "BoBW II" after being promoted by Hansen. . . now THAT'S always been a major problem with me: forget all Riker's previous refusals of command, in this ep he is actually made a Captain; yet by the next one he's back as a Commander. Obviously he couldn't remain as captain of the Enterprise, but what happened to his rank? Did he give it up? Was it disallowed because Hansen didn't get the paperwork done before getting killed? Or was the promotion to Captain-by-Position only, allowing him to wear the fourth pip?
posted
Me too. Even the dialogue at the end of BOBW pt 2 seems to indicate that he was going to keep it. And it was a field promotion, so I guess that Hansen wouldn't have to do paperwork to put it through. The idea would be to field promote in a war, so lots of paperwork would mess things up. The visual log should have been good enough.
Spock stayed a captain with Kirk as well. The differences being from an audience POV that Spock was also a science officer. Riker was essentially the other half of the command unit, and the subordinate. Putting him on the same rank as Picard would have mucked that up.
What's most strange it that the promotion occured in BOBW p2. If it had been in p1, you could argue that maybe they didn't know if Stewart would remain on the show, or whatever. But by p2, they knew that season 4 would be the same as season 3, so why promote him, and then secretly take it away again, with no explanation? It made no sense.
quote: Don't forget Lt. Cmdr. Dax, who was captain of the Defiant for some time, or Lt. Cmdr. Data, commanding the Sutherland. And last but not least Cadet/Captain Watters of the Valiant.
Those are all unique situations though. Data was put in command due to a lack of command officers, and it was a temporary sitation as well. Cadet Watters was also a fluke. And Dax wasn't really the captain of the Defiant, any more than Worf or Kira were when they took it out. The Defiant was never a "mobile" starship. It always operatred from a base. And even if you don't believe that, it was wartime, so again, you'd have lower ranks commanding ships to make up for deaths.
And in all those cases (apart form Watters), the captain was a Lt Commander, which is a long, long, LONG way away from a lietenant Junior Grade commanding a Nebula Class starship in peace time.
quote: Probably because Jellico was so formal. At least he ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform. Her normal uniforms were quite embarrassing. Anyone remember the scene in "The Ensigns of Command"?
True. For all the criticisms of Seven's skin tight outfit, Troi's really weren't much better. Or did she find them effective when she was fulfilling her psychiatric duties? Perhaps they relaxed the patient...
She also seemed to gain about 20 IQ points once they stuck her in a normal uniform.
What was the scene from The Ensigns Of Command though? And was it as bad as "What's a containment breach" in "Disaster?"
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
I'd love to hear more about Troi-related "incidents", but I'm gonna comment on other stuff first.
We didn't really hear the Lt(jg) called "Captain" at any point, did we? He *could* have been the guy to whom the real captain yelled "Mr Pink, you have the bridge!" before dashing to de-fritz the tractor beam, or to valiantly chase down Seyetlik on another shuttle, or something.
Or the real captain could have been knocked down by Seyetlik in a scene remniscent of Spock's and McCoy's "You are NOT going in there!" stare-match...
The argument that we never saw any high-ranking officers aboard the ship is not sufficient to prove their nonexistence. After all, we didn't see that Lt(jg), either - not until we visited the bridge. There was no "dining at the captain's table" scene, because Sisko dined with Seyetlik. There was no "welcomed aboard by the captain" scene, either. In fact, the whole crew maintained their distance from Seyetlik and the DS9 heroes all the time - even when the ship was at port, *nobody* came to visit Quark's.
Perhaps the crew simply was under very strict orders of secrecy relating to this protomatter test?
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
I think the Prometheus was not running on full complement for that mission. perhaps the ship was stripped down to store Seyetik's MassiveDevice��™, and was worthless except asa Device��™ carrying science ship with a skeleton crew. If there were few enough of them and the mission short enough, a Lt. would be the right choice to command.
BTW, according to Q, Picard was a lieutenant commander when he took the bridge of the Stargazer, not a lieutenant like somebody said. i also think its likely that, after the captain's death, Picard was promoted to full commander and given the captain position, and was promoted to captain somewherealnog that vessels mission (he commanded it for a VERY long time you know).
BTW, the original script for 'In Thy Image' before it was made into TMP featured a scene where Kirk and Nogura are communicating with the captain of a light cruiser about to be destroyed by V'Ger, the Aswan, who only held the rank of commander. The notes with the script indicates this is because it was a smaller vessel, & is a good sign that somebody knew how the navy worked (i'm thinking the writing might have been roddenberry's, not sure). The scene was rewritten to be the Epsilon-9 destruction, and the character remained a commander.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
