posted
If America thinks it won the Second World War, it's largely because Britain encouraged that viewpoint. As I read and learn more about WW II, and as more formerly secret information is declassified, I discover that America (and much of the world) owes Britain a debt of gratitude. They may not have won the war single-handedly, but without Britain, the war would have continued for many more years, possibly resulting in a Nazi victory.
Before America entered the war, and after France fell, Britain was the only credible opponent facing Nazi Germany in the west. Britain was an unlikely hero in this story. Due to the sound drubbing they had gotten in France, one could reasonably suppose they were all but beaten.
Fortunately, Britain turned out to be more capable than first appearances would suggest. During Nazi bombing attacks on the southern coast of England in preparation for "Operation Sea Lion" (the Nazi invasion of Britain), the British fighter pilots had an uncanny ability to appear in just the right position at just the right time to shoot down considerable numbers of Nazi planes, with relatively small losses of their own. Part of this ability was due to the air defense system developed by the British.
While both the Germans and the British possessed radar, Britain had developed an extremely effective system whereby their planes were dispatched and directed to a position and altitude which would allow them to intercept the incoming bombers on favorable terms. The German system was not so effective.
Another advantage the British possessed was that they had developed a system which allowed them to crack the Nazi codes. The information derived from coded messages was so effective that they often knew of an impending raid before the bombers had even taken off.
The British were highly skilled at deception, disinformation and counterintelligence. They orchestrated at least two major deceptions which kept the Nazis from putting large amounts of force precisely where it would do them the most good.
One deception was a "Ghost army" which was planning to invade Norway (in Nazi hands at that time) to cut off access to the ore Nazi Germany required to continue fighting. Only a handful of people were ever assigned to that unit, but they generated radio traffic that convinced the Nazis that the invasion was imminent. The Nazis kept 300,000 troops in Norway to defend against this army, and were convinced that the Norway invasion would happen at any moment, right until the end of the war.
The other deception fooled the Nazis into thinking that the Allied invasion of Europe would come at the Pas de Calais. That idea made sense to the Germans because that was where Operation Sea Lion (cancelled shortly after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union) would have departed from to attack England. A deception similar to the one above was used to convince the Nazis that their guess was right. The deception was so effective that the Nazis failed to reinforce their troops in Normandy until it was much too late. They were convinced that the Normandy invasion was a feint designed to draw off strength from the real invasion in Calais.
Britain is largely responsible for the Allied victory over Nazi Germany. If it had not so preoccupied the Nazis with it's many deceptions and if it had not fought so bravely during the years between the fall of France and the entry of the U.S., Germany would have been free to turn it's full might on the Soviet Union, and might have actually won their battle in the East.
If the Eastern front war had gone to the Nazis, they would have had the resources to turn their full might upon Britain, Africa, and the United States. I used to have a hardbound collection of the English language version of the Nazi propaganda magazine Signal. The plans the Nazis had for a post-war world were, on the surface, benign. However, their depiction of what the world would have been like after they won was devoid of any people of color, did not include Jazz music, and would have had all women playing as Stepford wives. What happened to all the other people was unstated, but I imagine they would have set up camps in the conquered territories to dispose of "problem people". Not a pleasant thought.
Permit me to say, "Thank you, Britain!"
--Baloo
------------------ "Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly, for the same reason." --(Unknown) Come Hither and Yawn...
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited January 13, 2000).]
posted
"Why the Brits Won the Battle of Britain," short-short version.
Because a few German pilots accidentally bombed a civilian target, London, rather than the military targets they were supposed to get. They simply dropped their bombs without aiming them, because they couldn't locate their target and were running low on fuel.
The outraged Brits responded by bombing Berlin.
A ticked-off Hitler then determined to pay the Brits back by switching his strategy. He ceased going after only military targets, and went after civilian ones. Thusly, a number of the advanced British radar systems (mentioned above) that might have been destroyed, were not, and were able to supply vastly superior logistics to the outnumbered British planes. Thus was the battle won. By accident.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
posted
Well, a lot of WWII happened "by accident."
By accident, the U.S. wasn't nearly as crippled as Japan's gamble, as the fleet at Pearl Harbour wasn't all there at the time of the attack.
By accident, one of Hitler's generals (Gah! I forget his name!) was off visiting his wife for their anniversary when Operation Overlord was launched.
By accident, it just happened that Hitler was willing to agree to declare war on the U.S., too, even though the Japanese couldn't be certain they would.
By accident, many Polish nationalists weren't able to seize cotnrol of Warsaw and were killed, when Stalin order Zhukov not to go in and help the insurrection before the Germans moved in, took prisoners and leveled the Polish capital to the ground.
By accident, the German occupation of Eastern Europe pretty much meant Stalin could come in and justly expand the U.S.S.R.'s borders, squish Poland to little of what it was before, install a communist government in Warsaw and aide everything from East Berlin to parts of Yougolsavia to Bulgaria to former Ukraine, etc. in "improving" their governmental candidates and their "rise to power."
By accident, Hitler caused the Battle of Stalingrad to result in the loss of some of his best veterans when he ordered no surrender against the Soviets who wouldn't, apparently, stand a chance on their own ground.
posted
"By accident, the U.S. wasn't nearly as crippled as Japan's gamble, as the fleet at Pearl Harbour wasn't all there at the time of the attack."
I have heard stories which suggest that this might not hav bben an accident. That Roosevelt knew what was coming, but purposefully let it happen so that the popular vote would turn towards entering the war, rathing that support staying out of it. Which is why several ships were away at the time.
Of course, it's likely to just be sensationilist tabloid journalism, but still...
------------------ "Sorry Wendy, I just can't trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die."
posted
I would have expected the mix of ships in Pearl Harbor to have been quite different if Roosevelt had intended to lose ships but still effectively fight a war. The vessels which became the capital ships of the pacific -- the carriers -- were intended to be used as scouting vessels for the main fleet. Carrier aircraft were expected to locate and harrass an enemy fleet until the battleships could move into position and deliver a killing blow.
When the battleships were hit at Pearl Harbor, the U.S. Navy had to improvise with the carriers. In the process, they discovered that aircraft could deliver the killing blow. Battleships were an important part of fleet operations after that, but the weapon of choice was the carrier and it's aircraft.
--Baloo
------------------ "Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly, for the same reason." --(Unknown) Come Hither and Yawn...
------------------ I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.
posted
I'll tackle the Pearl Harbor question to start.
There is no doubt in my mind that Franklin Delano Roosevelt knew the attack was coming.
Firstly, let me contradict Baloo as to naval tactics. What you are saying my have been correct amongst black shoed commanders, it was not amongst the brown shoes. There was a large contingent at the time which believed, correctly, that the carriers were going to win the war, not the battleship. The sinking of the Prince of Wales a few months before simply strengthened their resolve. It is my belief that FDR knew this. That's why he let the battleships, which at the time were considered more important by the population at large, to be destroyed. This led them to believe we were horribly hit. However, FDR knew that we still had what mattered, the carriers. Keep in mind, FDR was a "formal naval person" himself. Moreover, Kimmel's belief was to keep two task forces at sea at all times, but this was impossible due to a fuel shortage.
Incidentally, we knew Pearl Harbor was likely to be hit. In 1941 (May 12, day before my b-day) we held war games there based on this scenario, likewise in 1933 and 1939. Incidentally, the 1939 attack succeeded! Why? It was a surprise attack on a Sunday morning.
In the summer of 1940, the US broke the Japanese J codes. By monitoring these, they knew that Tokyo was interested in the position and movement of the US fleet in Hawaii. The J codes were changed in early December of 1941.
On January 24, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox sent a letter to Sec of War Stimson saying that "if war eventuates with JApan, it is believed easily possible that hostilities would be initiated by a surprise attack upon the fleet or the naval base at Pearl Harbor."
On February 1, Admiral Kimmel recieved a report from the Office of Naval Intelligence paraphrasing the reports made in January by the US Ambassador to Japan Joseph C. Grew. The comments read "My Peruvian colleague told a member of my staff that he heard that Japanese military forces planned to attempt a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor."
On February 11, Admiral Kimmel, CinC US Fleet in Hawaii issued a letter to his command which said, in part, "a declaration of war might be preceded by a surprise attack on ships in Pearl Harbor, a surprise submarine attack on ships in operating area, or a combination of these two."
On February 18, Admiral Kimmel commented in latter to Admiral Stark "I feel that a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor is a possibility."
On February 25, General Marshall (US Army Chief of Staff for those who don't know) told his staff that he was worried with the security of the fleet in Hawaii, particularly from a surprise attack.
On June 13, Admiral Kimmel, CINCUS, said in a meeting in Washington, attended by Secretary Knox, that Pearl Harbor invited an attack, and the only answer was for the ships not to be there when it came.
On September 10, Lt General Short pleaded with the War Department for bombproof aircraft prepair facilities at Oahu, which he claimed would be needed for the attack.
On September 20, General Martin, commander of the Hawaiian Air Force, suggested drills to train against a potention Jap carrier-based air attack. This was denied.
On November 27, the US forces in the Pacific recieved a war warning from Washington, which said in part, "an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days."
In early December, General Hap Arnold, commander of the airforce, told crews flying to the Phillipines to deliver B-17s that "War is imminent. You may run into a war during your flight." They had a scheduled stop at Hickam Field... Oahu, December 7.
In early December, Brig General Thorpe, US military observer in Java, sent Washington four messages based on information he recieved from General Hein Ter Poorten, commander of the Netherlands East Indies Army. The latter's intelligence staff had intercepted a Japanese code which stated that Japan would attack Hawaii, the Philippines, Malaya, and Thailand shortly. Most telling is what he told the General the signal for hostilities against the US would be: east wind, rain. (for those unfamiliar with this part of the war, that WAS the signal given) Washington's response? "Please do not send further information on this subject"
On December 2,the 12th Naval District Intelligence Office detected radio signals in the Pacific which they thought could be from the missing Japanese fleet. On December 6, they established their position to be about 400 miles north of Oahu.
On December 5, the destroyers USS Selfridge (DD-357) and USS Ralph Talbot (DD-390) made underwater contact with what the Talbot commander reported as a submarine about five miles off Pearl Harbor. He requested but was DENIED permission to depth charge with the explanation that it was not a sub but a blackfish. "If this is a blackfish, it has a motorboat up its stern!" he reportedly responded. That same night Admiral William F. Halsey's task force was advised that a submarine had been reported on December 4 just south of Hawaii.
On December 6, Ensign Fred Hall, assistant communications officer about the USS Vestal, commented to other officers that "They will attack right here." At 7:55 the next morning, Hall would be the officer of the deck and pull the general quarters signal. On December 6, Franklin D. Roosevelt read the 13 part message Tokyo had sent to its Ambassadors in Washington and commented "this means war." The message, then decoded, would officially be delivered on the 7th... with a 14th part (the official declaration). On December 6, Captain Johan Ranneft, the Dutch naval attache in Washington, was told that two Japanese aircraft carriers were proceeding east between Japan and Hawaii. While at the Office of US Naval Intelligence he asked where the carriers were. An officer placed a finger on a wall chart and indicated a position between 300 and 400 miles NW of Honolulu.
On December 7, at 6:45 AM the USS War (DD-139) depth-charged and sank a Jananese submarine. A second was sunk by a Catalina flying boat 15 minutes later. This harkens back to a comment Kimmel made in February when he commented that a single submarine attack may indicate the presence of a considerable surface force, accompanied by a carrier. That morning in Washington, General Marshall declined to send a message to Oahu via the US Navy's rapid transmission system, like Admiral Stark had offered. He sent it Western Union instead. The message? That at 1 PM EST the Japanese were going to present an ultimatum, and Washington believed that further significance was involved to this hour. The arrival time of the message? Well after 1 PM EST.
The Jap fleet had left port in late November. By then we were almost certain an attack was coming to Hawaii, which meant Pearl Harbor would be hit. We suspected how it would be done. We had a good idea where their fleet was. We even know on Dec 7 they would break contact with us. Now, I'm not going to say this was part of some huge conspiracy by FDR. However, any good commander in chief (be it the Prez or Kimmel) would keep his most important ships out of port when the attack likely would come.
I also suggest everyone here read the Bellinger report, good reading.
I'll tackle the other WWII stuff in a few minutes. I'm tired now.
------------------ "No, I don't have a gun" - Kurt Cobain Come As You Are, Nirvana
quote:By accident, the U.S. wasn't nearly as crippled as Japan's gamble, as the fleet at Pearl Harbour wasn't all there at the time of the attack.
I think I already tackled this :-)
quote:By accident, one of Hitler's generals (Gah! I forget his name!) was off visiting his wife for their anniversary when Operation Overlord was launched.
Rommel. That was a hell of an accident. Moreover, most German generals at the time were off at the war games. But you must give credit to Operation Bodyguard. If the Germans had known when it was coming... heaven help us.
quote:By accident, it just happened that Hitler was willing to agree to declare war on the U.S., too, even though the Japanese couldn't be certain they would.
I don't quite understand what you mean. Please explain.
quote:By accident, many Polish nationalists weren't able to seize cotnrol of Warsaw and were killed, when Stalin order Zhukov not to go in and help the insurrection before the Germans moved in, took prisoners and leveled the Polish capital to the ground.
This was no accident. This was calculated by Stalin.
quote:By accident, the German occupation of Eastern Europe pretty much meant Stalin could come in and justly expand the U.S.S.R.'s borders, squish Poland to little of what it was before, install a communist government in Warsaw and aide everything from East Berlin to parts of Yougolsavia to Bulgaria to former Ukraine, etc. in "improving" their governmental candidates and their "rise to power."
That's more irony than anything.
quote:By accident, Hitler caused the Battle of Stalingrad to result in the loss of some of his best veterans when he ordered no surrender against the Soviets who wouldn't, apparently, stand a chance on their own ground.
See, there are no accidents. (except the Rommel thing) This was just stupidity. General (no von) Paulus eventually surrendered because he was smarter than Hitler. That was just part of Hitler's own arrogance (the Soviets were supposedly inferior) and his pride (remember the orders after Normandy not to retreat?) than anything else.
------------------ "No, I don't have a gun" - Kurt Cobain Come As You Are, Nirvana
[This message has been edited by DT (edited January 14, 2000).]
posted
By accident, it just happened that Hitler was willing to agree to declare war on the U.S., too, even though the Japanese couldn't be certain they would
The treaty signed by Germany, Italy, and Japan stated that the nations would declare war on whomever declared war on them first.
However, by Japan beginning the war with the U.S. by Pearl Harbor, Germany and Italy were under no such obligations to declare war on the U.S., because any U.S. declaration of war would be in response to Japan's declaration of war (which it only sort of was).
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
posted
That one took me a second. Baloo, Elim, Monty, AND DT all in the same thread? Waittaminit.
------------------ Disclaimer: "All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities." - `OverTheEdge'
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