Flare Sci-Fi Forums: The Kursk

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

By this time, you've all heard of a sunken Russian sub in the Barents Sea. In last report, the men are still alive, but rescue operations are next to impossible and the men are running out of air.

What a way to go.........

*bows head*

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I think I read in the paper this morning that Russia finally asked Norway for help. *snicker*

Seriously, I think some other countries are sending rescue subs and such.

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"I really want a flying pogo-stick." - Antag

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Yeah, Brittain, too.

Seriously, Russia is too ambitious for its own good. The simply CAN NOT form a modern military safely with the resources available to them. This isn't the first time something like this has happened.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/sub000816_2.html
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/8/16/154524

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

The Russians could have asked for help earlier. It waited for two whole days before asking Norway and the UK to help. A specially designed Rescue sub is on its way now, but won't get there for another few days. By then, its crew may already be dead.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

The Russians do have their own rescue "bell" which they were trying, but were stopped by weather. If you think about it, if they had asked the UK earlier, I doubt if it would have changed the situation much, due to the weather.

Some info on the Kursk:
Russian Submarine Kursk K-141, Krasnodar (Oscar II) class nuclear-powered guided missle submarine, launched 1995, part of Northern Fleet (based in Severomorsk)

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

No, but if they'd asked the US, the Navy could've had Mystic or Avalon there on a C-5 within 12 hours.

Don't get me started on the Soviet sub forces...

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, I believe the UK sub was being flown in too, since I saw on the news a Russian IL-76 carrying a sub of some kind.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Well the US did offer assistance should the Russians ask, but I believe there are incompatibility issues with hatches or something like that.

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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

Well if the Russians had asked earlier instead of using crude diving bells on the sub the US might have been able to modify one of the DSRVs. At the least a team couldv'e gotten up there quickly. It appears Russian pride has doomed the crew, if they are not dead from CO2 posioning already.

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Fire the technobabble!

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The "candycane" that the Russians are sending down is relatively modern, actually. Like someone said above, the weather and the current is preventing a successful lock-on and shabby Russian equipment is probably not to blame too much. And what makes you think a DSRV could get from San Diego to Murmansk any faster than the LR5 from Scotland?

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

I am not sure really, but a DSRV may be better adapt. I dunno. But the US could have them there within 24 hours according to official info.

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Fire the technobabble!

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Mystic & Avalon are designed to be able to be deployed aboard C-5 "Galaxys" within 12 hours to any spot in the world. They're fitted with universal docking collars to latch onto 98% of the subs in the world, including the vast majority of Western & Soviet-issue boats; considering the Oscar is a relatively new design, there's no problem.

What would most likely happen is that an American sub would be called in from the Arctic region to dock at Murmansk, where the DSRV would be bolted onto the aft escape trunk. That would enable quick rescue options without needing a surface support vessel; weather & whatnot thus don't become a factor.

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Actually, it was explicitly stated on the news here that docking ports weren't compatable. As the story goes, the Americans went to the Soviets when the DSRVs were under development hoping for a docking collar would work to rescue a ship on either side. But they were poo-pooed by the Soviets at the time.

Where'd that 98% number come from, then?

[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 18, 2000).]

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

I guy I knew who was on Mystic's support team.

It's not really a matter of compatability of hathces. The hatch is simple: wheel is turned, door is opened. It's whether they can get a dry seal through the skirt. Oscars have a flat decks as do most SSBNs. There's no reason the aft escape trunk couldn't be used...UNLESS the crew can't reach it. THEN I can see a slight problem, as reaching that forward trunk is annoying, due to bow curve & such.

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

More info on the DSRVs: Apparently, Avalon was inactivated in July. I was exploring the page listed about & I found this one, too. Hit the link for "Manned Submersibles," then scroll a bit to the Mystic-class.

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

I here that the Russians are saying that most of the crew could already be dead. Apparently, there were two explosions on board the Kursk. One onboard torpedo detonated causing a chain reaction that caused a few others to detonate. These explosions caused a huge hull breech on the forward starboard side where most of the crew would have been working. Some of the crew died from the explosion while the rest of the crew in the area didn't have enough time to evacuate the section and seal it off before it could flood the area.

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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"

Posted by RW (Member # 27) on :

My guess is the crew died immediately-all of them..

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Well, they did have radio contact briefly after the accident, and as of the time rescue times arrived, there was "accoustic contact" (read: banging on the hull), so someone survived, at least for a while. Of course, if there're only a few people left alive, that should mean the air will last considerably longer...

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

quote:

My guess is the crew died immediately-all of them..

I think I remember hearing that someone was picking up sounds from the sub at first, then quite. I heard this morning that the front of the sub is mostly gone. I've heard two versions of how the can get oxygen, one said they have to have the reactors going, the other said they could do it with batteries, but the bridge was in the forward section, and is reportedly gone, so it is unlikely that anyone survived long.

Good to see you post RW!

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Sailing the Slipstream

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Most of the crew being killed is possible, all of them is highly unlikely. If Russian subs are designed similar to American subs, then the sleeping quarters would be more to the aft of the sub. All the entire crew wouldn't be awake at a single time (crews working on shifts). The paper today says from the latest photos that there is only a large hole in the front, not that the entire section is gone. The bridge is most likely underneath the tower, and is farther back from the hole, making it possible that the bridge crew survived at least the initial explosion.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

quote:
The simply CAN NOT form a modern military safely with the resources available to them. This isn't the first time something like this has happened.

At least not with their economy in the tank, like it is right now. The Russians probably have some of the finest human resources in the world (thinks of Sakharov), though their potential is overshadowed by transitional problems and the economic instability that follows it.

The Russians have been infamous for cutting maintance on virtually everything to save money. Chernobyl beeing at the apex of all these disasters.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

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Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Actually, Chernobyl (isn't the more accurate spelling now considered Chornobyl or somesuch?) had little to do with cutbacks. It had to do with a lack of safety precautions and operator incompetance. And the safety precautions (namely a standard containment vessel) could have been there, they were brushed aside more by Soviet confidence in there not being accidents than by an unwillingness to pay for them.

The CBC's National Magazine had Tom Clancy on last night, who seemed to think that based on what he's heard, most or all of the crew would be dead within a minute or two. Putin's now saying that he was told right at the outset by his military men that there was essentially no hope of survivors. (BTW, those Russian admirals have kewl hats).

Interestingly, radiographers in Norway have found no evidence of increased radioactivity in the Barent's sea, suggesting the crew probably had time to shut down the reactor after the accident.

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

*news update*
The British mini-sub LR-5 (IIRC) has arrived on the scene. They are deciding how to go forth with the rescue.

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Ich brenne! Haben Sie Wasser?!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

And it's Tjernobyl.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Or Chernobyl if you're not into unvoicing voiced affricates.

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"I really want a flying pogo-stick." - Antag

Posted by Amadeus on :

What are their subs in the water anyway? Its not like we're at war. What other purpose do they have except to move around in the water? What a waste.

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Amadeus: I really hope that you're using a form of dramatic irony to prove a point that I don't "get".

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[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited August 19, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The sub was doing training exercises, I think.

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Frank's Home Page
"I really want a flying pogo-stick." - Antag

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

If the subs aren't in the water, then there is no way for them to start/stop WWIII.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Oh so only the US is allowed to have subs in the water now, Amadeus?

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Well you do have maintian the subs and their systems. Plus you have to keep a well trained crew. There's no telling when hostilities could flare up. It's always good to stay prepared and battle-ready.

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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

quote:
It had to do with a lack of safety precautions and operator incompetance.

Because of budget cutbacks, like I said. If they put more money into maintaining their technology, they would, as an effect, hire more competent personell and implement better safety measures.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited August 20, 2000).]

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

They could put money towards it if they HAD ANY MONEY to put towards it.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

No, it didn't. The Soviets didn't put a safety vessel around their reactors not because they couldn't afford it, but because they didn't think they needed it.

The actual immediate cause of Chernobyl was an idiot sticking in all the rods into the reactor to see what would happen, ignoring a big fat sign above his head telling him to never do this.

Thankfully, Darwinism took its course and he was dead within a few hours of the accident.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Along with a few thousand others. Thus nature teaches us another lesson: not only does it discriminate against stupidity, it discriminates against PROXIMITY to stupidity.

Now tell me: if the estimates that their air could last 'til Friday were based on a full compliment estimate, but now they think that most of the crew was killed immediately, then why would they think that the remaints of the crew would have run out of air already? If only a dozen people survived, then they'd have air for a month.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

BREAKING NEWS:

Norwegians got inside, no life

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/08/21/russia.submarine/index.html

Posted by Amadeus on :

My point clearly was that since we are not at war, and have supposedly had at least 10 years peace, there doesn't need to be nuclear submarines by ANY country in the waters capable of destroying half a continent. Training exercises for what? WWIII? The point is that the russian were to stuck up to let the us come in and help because they didn't want us looking at their sub. And now their dead. The point is that the whole matter is disgusting. People dying for no reason is disgusting. Hopefully people here realize that, right?

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

quote:
not because they couldn't afford it, but because they didn't think they needed it.

That is only a rationalization because they couldn't afford it. I agree, it wasn't a priorty, thus the main cash flow wasn't going towards it, but if they did have more cash to allocate, maintance and safety standards would naturally go up.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Let's try to keep this civil, so as to avoid the firey pits of Tom.

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--
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