T O P I C ��� R E V I E W
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Constellation of One
Member # 332
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posted
I'm curious what everyone thinks about the allegedly "illegal/improper" ballots down there in Florida.I showed a copy of the ballot to my 10th grade classes (and I've got some DUMBBBBBBBBBBB students- we're talking six year plan, here) and all but one of ninety understood the ballot, and were able to vote Gore/Liebermann if they chose just by following the arrow to the punch out site. What do you think? Should the design of the ballot be an issue? Should the fact that people voted twice for president on the same disqualify their votes? Or, should this alleged irregularity trigger a revote, with all of the hopla and circus-like atmosphere that would accompany it? Seriously, I'm curious about everyone's opinions. ------------------ Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
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Jeff Raven
Member # 20
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posted
"What do you think? Should the design of the ballot be an issue?" An Appeals court decision back in the '70s already said no. It is up to the voter to understand the ballot, as well as make the informed choice."Should the fact that people voted twice for president on the same disqualify their votes?" If the ballot was received with two holes punched, then yes, it should be disqualified. If they don't understand that, then they shouldn't be voting. Also, those 19000 votes that didn't get counted because they were double-punched? Those were votes that were discarded because people they made the mistake and got another ballot. Should this alleged irregularity trigger a revote, with all of the hopla and circus-like atmosphere that would accompany it? A revote would be illegal. The entire election would be decided by *one* county. You can't call a 'do-over.' Why should the country pay for the stupidity of one county? ------------------ "Al Gore cost me the election." - Ralph Nader
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
Briefly, No, Yes, and No.I have stated my skepticism of multiple areas of this 'bad ballot' snafu on other threads, but to put it in a simple outline: Your average 7-year old can, as demonstrated numerous times including on TV, tell the difference in the ballot. The same ballot has been used in at least two prior elections (although it beats ME why they aren't using mechanized voting booths, like a civilized state...) and nobody complained ever. That makes this incident look spurious. The only 'confusion' here is that of LAZY voters. And that falls under the category of 'tough shite.' It is simply illegal to vote twice, no matter how 'confused' you were by the ballot. So ballots with two holes can't and shouldn't be counted at all, which is exactly what FL law says.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Omega
Member # 91
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posted
Agree with above. JR and Fo2 are smart guys. Of course, there's the caviat that the ballot may actually be ambiguous, but that doesn't apply here. JR: "Also, those 19000 votes that didn't get counted because they were double-punched? Those were votes that were discarded because people they made the mistake and got another ballot." Yep, but it's kinda odd that they even exist, since as I understand Florida law, they're supposed to be destroyed. Maybe it doesn't nesecarily mean immediately... ------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
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Xentrick
Member # 64
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posted
A re-vote isn't going to happen. The Constitution says as much. Allow it for all the AARP whiners in Palm Beach and the miffed Republicans in Northwest Florida will want a re-vote too because they were told the election was a done deal before *their* polls were closed. Unlike the kids playing a friendly game of stickball in the street, their are no "do overs" in this mess. And I quote from several sources: when's the last time these people mis-read a Bingo card? Allegedly, some have complained that they didn't understand the ballots because they aren't like the one "back home"- New York. jeez, people, fucking adapt.
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Constellation of One
Member # 332
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posted
I pretty much agree. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I was curious as to what others thought, so that's why I asked. Here's a good one. I was watching the History Channel earlier today, and they had a discussion about this topic. Gerald Posner, who is usually a fairly level-headed historian/commentator, endorsed this approach in analyzing the ballots by hand: if the ballot was voted straight Democratic in every spot except president, then it should be counted as a vote for Gore, since the voter really "meant" to vote for Gore. Uh, hello Gerald? Is it just possible that the voter actually didn't want Gore to win? I once voted a straight Republican ticket way back in (I think) 1985 or 1986, my first election. Well, straight Republican except for voting for a Democrat for the US Senate who helped my family and the families of other deceased veterans, and who I actually thought did a good job. However, to take Posner's idea my vote would have been changed to the Republican candidate if there was a problem! What BS! What upsets me the most is the idea growing across this nation like a cancer that we aren't responsible for our own actions. I find this repugnant and insulting.
------------------ Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
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seanr
Member # 277
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posted
Whether or not people understand it is irrelevant if it violates state law.According to state law, the names are required to be in a certain order, based on the number of votes received by each party in the previous election. According to the law, Bush should have been first, Gore second, Buchanan Third, Nader fourth (IIRC), etc. In reality, they were not in that order. Reading from the tp down, the order was Bush, Buchanan, then Gore, Nader (IIRC), etc. Gore and buchana were clearly swapped. The other problem with that ballot is the requirement that the holes be to the right of the names. If some names are on the right side of the holes, that law was clearly not followed. Some people argue that that law only applies to paper ballots, but the law also states that for computer ballots, the requirements for paper ballots are to be followed as much as practicable (a Bushism?). Sure, that's a blurry line, but it's not THAT blurry. As far as the desgner of the ballot being a Democrat, tat's irrelevent. If it vioates the law, it doesn't mater who designed it. The election board is also at fault for approving it. When you read the code, it is clearly illegal and should have been rejected by the elections board without a moment's hesitation. ------------------ Sean Robertson webolutionary@webolutionary.com http://www.webolutionary.com http://www.mania-online.com 3D Gladiator Premier Forums Member "Great is the glory for the strife is hard" - Wordsworth "Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?" - Dr Evil
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seanr
Member # 277
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posted
Regarding the revoe, that's a REAL sticky issue. If you deny a revote and dismiss those votes, then you are denying those citizens the right to have their vote count. If you allow a revote, you have serious question of fairness.I personally think a revote is the lesser of the two eviles, because at least then, both parties have equal ability to drive the masses to the polls. If you just dismiss the votes, then you've denied them the right to have their vote counted, and worse, you've done that in a heavily democatic county, which is clearly unfair as well, perhaps more so than a revote. Have your students debate that question, maybe even have them split into two groups and have each group come up with all their reasons, and then they can each pick a debator from within the two groups to debate their points in front of the class. Sure would make for a far more interesting history class than the usual book/video routine. I'd love to hear how that one goes.
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Omega
Member # 91
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posted
Revotes are illegal.Revotes in FL would be unfair to the rest of the country. Revotes will not be allowed. ------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
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Malnurtured Snay
Member # 411
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posted
Well, no shit, Omega. ------------------ Can anyone say premature ejac ... er, election?
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 13, 2000).]
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Constellation of One
Member # 332
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posted
I don't do the book/video routine with my students. I give essays. Lots of them, so many that their hands fall of from holding the pen too long, their eyes distend from the endless reading requiring eyeglasses, and their attention spans actually grow larger than their shoe sizes, so that my students, no matter how dense, can at least read and understand simple directions, unlike our "friends" in Florida. Danger Will Robinson - psycho teacher! Okay, calming down. Calming down. Calm. There. insanity gone now. Maybe. On another note, CNN reported today that the margin in New Mexico is four votes statewide! Is this intense, or what?
------------------ Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
According to the Attorney General of the State of Florida, the ballots used were NOT illegal in any way.And that's pretty much the final legal say on the matter, unless the Feds decide to once again overstep their authority and let Janet Reno step in. And why do we not hear the other side acknowledging that these same ballots have been used for YEARS without a hassle, and that in the last election, several thousands of votes were nullified for the same reason, but nobody bitched THEN. I'll tell you. Because the issue isn't REALLY fairness, is it? ------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Malnurtured Snay
Member # 411
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posted
Ok, I hadn't heard the Fl AG make that statement.If the ballots were legal, then there's no issue. Wait until the 17th, then see who won Florida. Whoever won Florida, gets the White House. ------------------ "When they come, kill them. We're not here to make friends." -- Connor "But you're my friend." -- Duncan "Count yourself lucky." -- Connor Highlander: The Element of Fire
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Diane
Member # 53
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posted
Omega: Well, that's odd. I heard that revotes have been done before.I don't think there's a problem with people voting straight Democrat and then a Republican president. However, SOMETHING's going on when Jews start voting for Buchanan... ------------------ "The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." --Albert Eistein
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Omega
Member # 91
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posted
*GASP*She's STEREOTYPING! And here I thought liberals didn't do that... ------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
Well, from what I've heard this morning, the Demoncrats have even found a way around Florida Law...Apparently, they had the case brought before a Democratic judge (surprise, surprise), and he effectively REWROTE the law (rather than interpreting it, as a judge is SUPPOSED to do), adding three provisions in order to allow the counties who were late to have their recounts. This is NEW legislation, created by a JUDGE rather than by the FL citizenry, through their elected representatives. It's unconstitutional, sets a dangerous precedent, and is just plain WRONG. Now we see the true colors beginning to show. Don't like the results? Subvert the rull of the people by getting a court to write the law! ------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited November 17, 2000).]
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TSN
Member # 31
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posted
Diane: No-one said something wasn't wrong. Obviously, those people didn't intend to vote for Buchanan. But, if it was their own stupidity that caused them to screw up, they don't get to have a "do-over"...------------------ "What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable." -T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
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Omega
Member # 91
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posted
Well, Rob, I guess the will of the people is that the will of the people be subverted, eh?If I hear Gore say that phrase one more time, I'm gonna shoot the TV. ------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
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Ritten
Member # 417
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posted
Omega, shoot the judge instead. That is just plain f*ck*d up!------------------ **...****...**
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Malnurtured Snay
Member # 411
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posted
Message to Al Gore:Just fuckin' concede! ------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Continuing to boldly go ...
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
NEW 'Improprieties:' FOX 10:00 News, Fri. 11-24:In Dade, one of the disputed FL counties, the votes of 39 people were disqualified... because they were convicted felons. 3 were Republicans. 3 were "Independents." 33 were Democrats. An odd disparity, that. I'd have expected a smaller disparity between the major parties, unless... No, I suppose it'd be unfair to say that criminals tend to be democrats from such a small sample. Although the one felon they interviewed wanted her vote to go to Gore, and didn't see what her having been a felon had to do with her 'right' to vote. "Hey, kids! It's simple! Want to vote? Don't be a felon!" This public service message brought to you by the Smack-Upside-The-Head Society. ------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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