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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Omega: [QB] Mucus: Of course my basic nature is selfish. I'm human. Show me a person who claims to have no struggle with selfishness, and I'll show you a liar. The data before '96 would only be relevant to my overall conclusion if the armed robbery rate went up by 70% or more EVERY two years, before OR after the ban. I don't think that's a probable thing, but it's possible. Anyway, I didn't see any info on the ABS website for previous years, so 'bout the only thing we can do on that is ask Daryus if he thinks that's reasonable. 'Course, he doesn't think the CONFIRMED statistics are correct, so... "And its also interesting that you trot out the tired old argument of supply-side economics. As anyone who has studied economics knows, this area is totally subjective." Just because people disagree on something doesn't mean that there's no correct answer. "Luckily math is math. If a zero-guns scenario has no gun-related deaths, scenarios approaching this must have decreasing levels of gun-related deaths." Again, two dimentional thinking. You don't account for WHO has the guns. You don't account for deaths by other means that wouldn't occur if law-abiding citizens had guns. Your conclusion is flawed. "Your assertion that more guns would reduce other types of offences is laughable." Your inability to understand something so simple is far moreso. Guns in the hands of civilians are obviously not going to stop speeding. I never suggested such a thing. They do, however, prevent sexual assault, robbery, and assault. It's obvious that guns in the hands of law-abiding civilians prevent crime. Your assertion otherwise is laughable. Liam: "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, y'know." I'd disagree. In the right hands, it can become an art. [IMG]http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif[/IMG] *L* Let's follow this argument, shall we? I make a statement, and back it up with sources. Liberal adversaries question validity of sources. I locate sources that, within reason, can not be questioned. Liberal adversaries change the subject. I return to subject. LA's continue to ignore point, and again question the validity of my source (which has already been confirmed). I requote source. LA's engage in ad hominem attacks on me, and people not even involved in this argument. No one has yet made a point that combats mine, with the possible exception of the point that I am only using data points dating from shortly before the ban. So in theory, the increase in crime could have nothing to do with the ban, and could in fact be a regular occurance, but it seems extremely unlikely. The fact remains that immediately after guns were banned in Australia, gun-related crimes increased by a huge amount. There only explaination submitted (except the minor recession, which wouldn't explain things) is mine, which is that the ban CAUSED the increase. The fact also remains that the same thing occured in Brittain, with no other explaination offered. I'm the only one with a theory that fits the available evidence, the evidence being unquestioned. There is no reason not to accept said theory until further evidence comes to light, or someone proposes a new theory that also fits the facts. "You ever tried arguing with a Jehovah's Witness? That's what this feels like." Funny, how I was just thinking that this is exactly like arguing with a member of some cult, who refuses to respond to any point you make, or even acknowledge that you made the point in the first place. You wanted to bring Rush into this earlier, well, here you go: something I have in common with Rush is the fact that we both want the truth. "Relentless persuit of the truth" is how he puts it. How should we then live? I want to know how I can best do good. Therefore, I must know the truth. Some have said that the only way truth can be discovered is by debate. But for debate, I suppose I must go elsewhere, as I can find none here. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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