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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay: [QB] Well, let's address the general Scuzz-omatic argument. <ul> [*]Since the onset of the Industrial Revolution, the role of women in society has changed dramatically. Therefore it is not unlikely that the role of women in the Post-Industrial age may change to incude the loss or abandonment of voting rights...</ul> Well, the role of women in society has change sure enough...but even so, that is a very western centric view. Assuming that we understand that this particular argument has nothing to do with women in the extreme Islamic cultures...and we are arguing about western cultures...that is indeed correct. However, the Industrial Revolution began a full century and a half before the 1880's and '90's. And the industrial age's impact represents a huge change that manifests itself in many smaller way that have more direct impact on daily lives. One can say that everything really begins with the development of argicultural so very long ago. Women began working in the mills and on looms during the fledgling industrial period. The 1880's to the 1930's or so represents the maturation of the industrial age, but to describe that time frame as the first entrance of women into the work force, i.e. outside of the home or farm is incorrect. And even then, the numbers of women in that sort of work did not make any real inroads into the male dominated areas until the 1940's. WWII necessitated that there be some intense societal change to facilitate the winning of the war. As a result, using the phrase from WWI, how you going to keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paris. Consider this for a moment if you would. The Industrial Revolution began in England around the mid-1750's or so. Women got the vote in the United States in 1920 with the passage of the 19th Amendment. That's quite a time frame there. I think one can make the argument that the Industrial Revolution was little more than a mitigating factor in the area of women and the vote. The era of Progressive politics and the role played by the Progressives, a reaction to the rampant industrialism played a bigger, more immediate role. Women in the United States had for years argued, rallied, and made the general call for suffrage. 1848 saw the Seneca Falls in New York. <A HREF="http://www.closeup.org/sentimnt.htm"TARGET=_BLANK>The Declaration of Sentiments</A> was the initial call for the vote in the United States. Still some 72 years till women got the vote. During that time, as I stated before there are several Progressive social changes taking place. Child labor laws; fire and workplace safety standards (post Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire); action to end political corruption�all of these play a role. Consider also the role that the extension of the vote to former slaves and free black men had in the movement of women to seek the extension of suffrage to them. So clearly the Industrial Revolution as you argue was not the single factor in the role of female voting, and should not be considered the single factor for females not voting. Moreover, it is hard to see the Post- Industrial age as a regressive era. If one believes as I do, that the extension of the vote to classes of citizens who previously had no real voice in society as forward movement in cultural change, the must be a real question how it can be justified that the removal of those rights be seen as anything but a step backward. A step back to a time where women were seen to be secondary to the man (if a women is even married) in any given relationship. Women now have a primary role in the political actions of the state (at least in the United States). No longer is it a proxy role. That in and of itself will not change as we move further into a Post-Industrial age. Women as caregivers do not give up the right to participate. It is illogical to assume that the influence�no matter how large or small that influence�can replace direct participation in the political process. Moreover it is also illogical to assume that the Post- Industrial Age will necessitate the withdrawal from the political process of any person who has the vote. If it is safe to conclude that Post- Industrial society and culture will be more complex than previous ages, I think it is safe to conclude that people will want to retain their voice and their position in the system when issues arise that affect them. Not the other way around as you argue Scuzz. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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