At this meeting, my once highly respected Bishop, the Rev. Judith Craig, signed a letter along with 14 other clergy stating their views on homosexuality. This letter stated that it was their belief that a homosexual should be able to become members in my church and that they should be able to become clergy themselves. This was not taken very well by the my conference, and esp. my district.

Our Bishop was scheduled to preach at my church the following year for our bicenntenial. There was talk of people boycotting that service and a few of the *rougher* men talked about killing her. (i did not approve of that, btw) My church a month later sent a letter to our bishop asking her to resign! We stated she no longer represented us, and that we can no longer follow her leadership.

Ever since then, we in my church have gotten very sensitive about the subject. I live on the Eastern edge of the Bible belt and the concept is sacreligious to us. I really feel sadness in my heart for my church because it is about to split again. Henry Clay said on the floor of Congress (something like), "Where ever the Methodist church has gone throughout history, the United States has done the same." This was right after the church split on the slavery issue, not long after the Civil War started.

My heart is heavy for my church and the world at large, that everyday we divide over something new, and draw a new battle line. I planned to be a pastor in my church, but theses days I'm not sure my church will be in the same form it is now. We are struggling to maintain our control over what our ancestors worked so long to build. We don't want to disappoint God for letting it go by either.

I might add more to this later, but it's 2:30 a.m. here.

"And we pray that all unity may one day be restored!"

Thank you, sorry for causing more trouble.

 

But I don't get it. The Catholics are tolerant of homosexuals.

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"
 

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Even as I speak, the scourge of advertising could be heading toward _your_ town! Lock your doors, bar your windows, because the next advertisement you see could destroy your house and eat your family!
~Kent Brockman
 

*pays particular attention to the lines:*

>"There was talk of people boycotting that service and a few of the *rougher* men talked about killing her. (i did not approve of that, btw) My church a month later sent a letter to our bishop asking her to resign! We stated she no longer represented us, and that we can no longer follow her leadership."

Think about that really hard.

If a deeply-held opinion can cause such feelings of violence in the holders, particularly among supposed followers of the "Prince of Peace," that opinion is almost certainly wrong.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited June 26, 1999).]
 

Everytime there is a pastor/bishop Bible study the pastors try to bring this up, cause we really don't know where she's comin' from. She ignores those questions. The reason they ask the questions is because she always preachers to them about homosexuality.

BTW, my idea was for the board of trustees to drive up to her house in Columbus and knock on the door. Have a little talk!

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I love Zilla's lips ! ;)
 

See, that was a problem I had at my ex-church. A lot of the folks believed "such and such was so and so, and that's it, end of discussion, no room for argument, and even if you have something logical or intelligent to say we won't listen to it anyway, or you're a stinkin' heretic and yer gonna burn in Hell." That attitude extended far beyond scripture to cover just about every facet of life.

And their main reason for holding this opinion was that that's what they were told to do. Eons ago.

Accepting things are such a way simply because people I don't know SAY so, or because that's the way it's "Always" been, or out of "tradition," I've generally found to be an unacceptable reason, for me, anyway.

Just because something is "traditional," or even "doctrinal" does not automatically make it a GOOD thing. A good examle would be that famous short story "The Lottery." Another would be things like female circumcision/mutilation as a "rite of passage."

If you have a board of trustees who actually talk and listen, though, there's some hope for your church yet. Good luck.

BTW: is there anybody else who finds it as amusing that I do that the "Nicest of the Damned" and the "Board Chaplain" have so many contrary discussions?
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited June 26, 1999).]
 

And yes, I think it's weird, and is becoming more and more of a dead end for both of us.

btw... I agree with your sig. file too

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I love Zilla's lips !

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited June 26, 1999).]
 

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Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 

My local church has been trying to open a homosexual ministry since '96. The like 2 gay guys our pastor has had contact with couldn't even grasp that what they were doing was the least bit wrong. That made it impossible to go any farther with them.

*The above paragraph is not intended to offend, but to tell a story*

My belief on the matter (and this will bother a bunch of you)is (and it's an old cliche) God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

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Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 

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I love Zilla's lips ! ;)
 

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Person One: "LOOK! Charles has changed his sig!"
Person Two: "Quick, call a doctor!"
the solareclipse network
 

And to answer what I think is your next comment Charles: Jubilee is not currently sinning this sin, because she is with you. Or at least that's my opinion.

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I love Zilla's lips ! ;)
 

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"Just remember...you're the queen!"
Tom Paris to Janeway, "Bride of Chaotica"

And quite simply, if you don't go after people for not doing all that other stuff, what right do you have to insist on the rest?

You can't go halfway on something like this, and say "well, I'm just going to pick and choose what parts of the law I follow." Is the Old Law still in effect, contrary to what is said in the NT, or not?

If it is, you must obey all of it, which includes trying to stone folks like me and Jubes.
(ya see, if you read the thing, there are also commands it issues about what you MUST do to heretics, homosexuals and witches and so forth...)

If it isn't, they you must reject the prohibitions that go along with it as being no longer valid, just like we can now eat sausage and lobster, wear blended fabrics, and poop in toilets in our houses.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
 

Bryce: I know the Bible said homosexuality is an abomination. But an abomination = a sin. Keeping that in mind, who hasn't made an abomination?

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"
 

I was researching a good answer to all of the above when I discovered what appears to be a very well-though-out, balanced, and biblically-grounded website that deals with Christianity and homosexuality.

I'm still reading the articles, so I can't say if I endorse this guy's views whole-heartedly, but he has things to say about both the Christian community and the gay community that seem to ring true. He does not appear to be trying to demonize anyone.

Here's the link:

http://members.aol.com/gunnyding/christ.htm

I don't plan on making any further comments until I have a chance to look up the references he gives, and examine the logic he uses. In the meantime, I recommend we recall the commandment Jesus said was second-most important: "Love one another".

If you care about someone, you will not try to enslave them to your doctrine, but will simply tell them the facts as you know then -- then you'll shut up and let them make up their own mind!

If you don't understand what you believe, don't wonder when others scoff at what you say -- you literally don't know what you are saying.

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"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
--Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

ok... so we've already determined Homosexuality was a sin and I don't have to go into Biblical references and stuff so that's good.

So... homosexuality is a sin, so is murdering, so is lying, so is cheating on your husband right?

All of us have sinned. It's in the Bible. Romans 3:23- all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Alrighty... so all of us sin... like DUH! We're all human... BUT

3:24 says- and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemtion that came by Christ Jesus.

Ok... BUT ALL sins are justified when you are saved. ALL sins are forgiven if you accept Christ in your heart.
And when you get saved, God puts the desire in you to want to be better and more Christlike. You then TRY to stop sinning. I dunno if a sinless life can be achieved, but for a Christian it should always be strived for.

Wow this is long... ANYWAYS... A homosexual is a person and Christ died for them. Because he loves them...(as should everyone by the way) and if a homosexual accepts Christ in their heart they should quit commiting homosexual acts.

Same goes with someone who is heterosexual... if they are commiting premarital sex, they should stop.
Sex before marriage is all sin.

Since homosexual marriages are NOT recognized as two fleshes becoming one under God then homosexuals should NOT practice AT ALL.

I'm not going to go into whether or not people DECIDE to be gay or they are BORN that way... Either way, if they have no desire to be with a member of the opposite sex, then they can't really get married and have sex.

OH NO!!!! SOMEONE NOT HAVE SEX!!!! HEAVEN FORBID!

If God calls someone to remain "pure" for the rest of their life, then they should obey God. I know many Christians waaaaay into their 50's and have never had sex because they were never married.

Ok... well that was a Baptist view for ya!

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ever wonder why abbreviation is such a long word?

 

Sure convinced me!

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"Just remember...you're the queen!"
Tom Paris to Janeway, "Bride of Chaotica"

If homosexuality, which was once regarded as deviant behavior, is now not only seen as acceptable, but good, then we have lost our ethic. If we have lost our ethic, and the authority of Scripture, then we can no longer delude ourselves into thinking we are still in the mainstream of historic, orthodox Christianity. If our ethic has lost its transcendent base and has now declined to the subjective level of consensual morality; if we have lost a universal, divine Savior and the accompanying universal standard of morality and decency, then we are subsequently bereft of the benefits of the faith �once delivered to the saints.� It has become a gutted Christianity which is Christian in name only.

If God is indeed evolving, and therefore his will and word are evolving as well, as the process theologians would have us believe, then actually this God is a product of our imagination � the collective will of society. If our morality is nothing more than an ambiguous niceness, or a call to be loving toward others without any specifics, then it has no substantive value.

So what we are faced with is the core of our faith � whether this is indeed a revealed religion from a transcendent, holy God who holds us accountable, or merely something we make up as we go along. Our calling is to reach a culture in crisis, and to do so we must present a relevant Gospel, but the way to do that is to change our methods not our message. It is important that the church has become more open and accepting of homosexual persons, but which is more compassionate: to say that persons of homosexual orientation cannot be any different and must therefore continue to live out the impulses which drive them, or to introduce them to the power of God which is able to control and even change our natural inclinations? It is precisely because we love homosexual persons, as we do all people, that we offer them hope. The steep decline in our membership should be dramatic proof that we have lost our message of supernatural grace. The message of the Gospel has been changing lives for thousands of years among every race, tribe and culture. Our concern is not so much whether our culture will find our God relevant, but whether our God will find our culture acceptable. Those given the responsibility of holding the light are especially accountable.

 

The greater sin is continuing to persecute the saints because they don't adhere to your doctrine. It's God's (and the individual's) job to correct others' behaviors, not mine. It's my job to show what Christ is, not by my words, but by my actions.

The arguments shown at that site are logical and well thought-out. Nowhere does he call upon the traditions of man to justify his position. I'm afraid I'm gonna have to come down on the side of "preference isn't sin, but licentious behavior is" on this one. If I'm wrong, I'm certain I will discover valid reasons to change my position. I will not waver on any mortal person's say-so.

To put your faith in anything without proving to your own satisfaction that you can trust the source is foolish at best. Thomas may have been a doubter, but he was no fool.

--Baloo

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"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
--Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited June 27, 1999).]
 

Your right I think, but if we don't advise people on their problems, who will?

I orginally came to these boards to discuss Trek, but resently I've come to the conclusion that I must be here outta God's will because everybody needs to hear the Word of God.

The reason I sometime sound crued is because I'm tired of pastors who tip toe aroung important issues.

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I love Zilla's lips ! ;)
 

About bryce's sermon: Excuse me? We are always changing and evolving. In biblical times women were considered properties. Not two hundred years ago, people in this country owned slaves and prayed about them in church. Morals ARE made up by people. You can say the Bible is the word of God, but SOMEBODY had to write it.

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"

 

Certain things in the Bible are cultural. (i.e.) Paul told the women of Corith to stop talking during church because the men where getting upset. Not because women are mindless

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I love Zilla's lips !

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited June 28, 1999).]
 

Take the log out of your eye before you start looking for splinters in mine. Thank you.

As for knowing wether or not it is wrong:
It isn't. End of story.

As for accepting Jesus into your heart, and not being homosexual after that:
My bet gay friend accepted Jesus into his heart 7 years ago. He's still gay. He's very happy with his gayness. And I see the fruit of Jesus in his life every day, so don't throw the bible at me about that.

As for not "committing homosexual acts": My god people, you make it sound as if we were rapists or something! "Homosexual acts" ?! ... *shakes her head* No. These
people should not stop doing what they feel as completely natural just because a few Christians have a
stick up their butts about it (read: a FEW christians.. I realize not all of you are like this!).

And I'd like to state that the Bible was WRITTEN BY MEN. No matter how divine it is, or how many times Jesus was quoted ... HE WAS QUOTED. That means, THERE IS ROOM FOR ERROR. THERE IS ROOM FOR MIS-UNDERSTANDING. THERE IS ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION.
The bible was re-written MANY DIFFERENT TIMES, and Interpreted from it's origional language many different times as well. What does this mean? It means that ANYONE could have ADDED SOMETHING IN about that, thinking that it, too, was wrong and needed to be listed as an abomination ... when in reality maybe Jesus didn't say that.

I know this for a fact: I WAS BORN BI-SEXUAL. Kissing a girl is completely natural to me. So is kissing a guy. And when I finally stopped kicking myself for what I thought was a sin, and finally listened to the Lord, I discovered something very important: He loves me. God doesn't care about it! He MADE me this way, and I highly doubt that God creates abominations, now does he?

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Cherish your visions; cherish your ideas; cherish the music that stirs in your heart, the beauty that forms in your mind, the loveliness that drapes your purest thoughts, for if you remain true to them, your world will at last be built.

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"

1:1 So God made the world and stuff, and He did a lot of stuff, see, and these people decided to write down some of the good stuff He said, or that they thought He said, or would say, and use it as a guide to life, and that was okay.

1:2 And some other folks came along and said "Hey, we want to build up our self-esteem, so let's start calling ourselves "the chosen ones," which will make us feel good about ourselves, and allow us to dehumanize our enemies, so we'll feel less bad about killing them."

1:3 And some other people came along and said "Listen, we want to set our people apart from all other peoples, because hey, we're the "chosen ones," and let's add some of our own laws to the real ones, things that will set us apart, like, we don't eat seafood, we wear clothes all of one fabric, and... um... we don't like gays. In fact, we REALLY don't like them. In fact, let's just say that God told us that they were really bad folks, and we oughtta frag 'em. Since 99.999% of the population can't read, and we priestly guys are the only people who tell 'em what God said, they'll buy it. And we'll be the Guys In Charge!"

1:4 And so they did.

1:5 And God said "Holy Me, this ain't good!" So he sent his kid down to show 'em how things should be done, with gentleness and love.

1:6 And the Guys In Charge didn't like that, so they fragged 'im.

1:7 And some other people tried to remain true to the idea, but they were only human, and couldn't stop their own prejudices from creeping back in and reasserting themselves over the centuries.

1:8 So we ended up with a value system of guilt and self-loathing, for imagined sins, and a neurosis between hating as the old ways say, and loving as the new ways tried to say,

1:9 When the only thing anybody really needs to know is that the only TRUE sin is hurting other people unnecessarily, and not being sorry about it.

1:10 Which, incidentally, is just as hard, if not harder, than obeying a bunch of ridiculous laws that nobody can prove were actually intended anyway.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"