This is topic What's the difference between the Catholic and Protestant religions? in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
I seriously don't know, but I'd like to hear everyone's views. My friend asks me this same question from time to time, and I honestly can't answer him. I know that when Martin Luther started the whole Protestant movement because of the corruption that was in the Catholic church, but now, at the turn of the millenium, is that the case anymore?


For the record, I'm Catholic

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Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :
 
Oh, God. I just saw "Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life" featuring the song "Every Sperm Is Sacred" too. I'lll try not to quote the whole sequence. . .
 
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
Please do! My friend sings Monty Python all day...

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
*LOL*

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"Quadrilateral I was, now I warp like a smile."
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Soul Coughing
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
You'd probably have to pick a specific Protestant religion, as there are so many and they're all different to some extent or another.

I love the "every sperm is sacred" song.

From my own reading of the thing, I've come to the conclusion that the whole anti-birth-control stance which is usually justified by the Bibblical story of Onan (IIRC, God wanted Onan to make babies with his late brother's wife, but Onan didn't want to, so he "spilled his seed on the ground," and God killed him.), is a gross misinterpretation. God didn't slag Onan because he wasted his stuff, He slagged him because he DISOBEYED! (as the Biblical OT God seems to be fond of slagging people for.)

Pretty petty, if you ask me.

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
When you invent the game, you make the rules, but I digress.

I can't provide dates (I'm doing this from memory), but I believe that the original intent of the protestant movement was not a separation from the Catholic church but a call for reformation. The church had fallen into a number of objectionable practices, the only one of which I can recall at this moment being the sale of indulgences.

An indulgence was like a "get out of hell free" card. You paid a priest (or other official of the church) and could receive exemption for any number of sins. Some proactive individuals even bought indulgences "ahead of need", as it were, just like someone today might buy condoms before going on a hot date. The problem of indulgences (apart from the dubious nature of the whole business) was that the more you could pay, the more you could get away with.

When confronted by these protests and calls for reform, the church did not make any move to look into these accusations, but rather, closed ranks, though not universally. Martin Luther was a monk (or perhaps a priest, it's been a while since I looked this stuff up) who was protesting the corruption in the church, and was excommunicated for his troubles. The party line was that the church was infallible, and it was the sole entity capable of declaring anything corrupt or not. In its own case, the church decided that the protesters were heretical at best, and excommunicated a few key individuals in the belief that this would shut the rabble up so they could get back to business as usual.

Confronted with the threat of excommunication, a lot of people shut up and toed the party line. A lot of other people said, in effect: "Screw you, then!" and founded their own church based on essentially the same principles as the Catholic church, but including what reforms they thought were necessary. One reform was that church services were eventually done in the native language of the people attending, rather than Latin. Confession was abolished, since a corrupt priest could (and often did) misuse the information divulged by the confessor, and the prohibition against priests marrying (originally instituted to eliminate the temptation to make a holy office a hereditary position) was lifted.

I don't recall when the term: "Protestant" was coined, but I'll bet that it wasn't originally an English term. I also don't recall if the Anglican church is considered a protestant church or not.

Someone with more information is invited to fill in the blanks and correct errors in the above.

--Baloo

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[Post-edit addition: I completely forgot that the Catholic church did eventually institute reforms, but of course, by then it was too late.]

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :
 
As I understand it, the Anglican Church is Protestant, although it shares many of the traditions with the Catholic Church. All subsequent Protestant denominations branched off from the Anglican Church. I'm not really sure, though, since the whole thing is a bloody confusing mess, and I don't really trust Churches since they are often more motivated by money than faith. This is why I simply call myself Christian and avoid Church, for the most part. I'd rather keep my individuality, thank you.

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Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Jaresh's comments are easier to adress, it is complete wrong that all Protestant religions started from the Anglican Church, actually King Henry VIII was a in opposition of the Protestant Rebellion (that is the Catholic Church called it at the time). Ok but Henry wanted a male aire so he need to get his marriage annulled, however the Catholic Church refused (the only way it could have been annulled if they didn't have sex during the marriage, since he had a child from the marriage it was highly unlikely ). So he formed his own church just to let him have a divorce, Seriously.

I will respond to Baloo's comments tomorrow, cuz it's too late today.

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
 


Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
 
*has Grahame Chapman's entire speech from last night's film running through my brain*

Resisting the temptaion to quote it all, may i just mention one of the eensy weensy little points of difference between these two creeds; the Pope....

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"FOOLS! Will I have to kill them ALL?!?!"


 


Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
 
--Whoopsy Double Posty--

[This message has been edited by Montgomery (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
*LOL@"Get out of Hell free card"*

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
*The Dark Warrior slowly awakens for his slumber*

Ahhh, Now I can finally comment on the pratice of indulegences.

The guy who pissed Luther off was a guy named Tindal (sp) who sold indulegences to help pay for the new Saint Peter's Basllistic in Rome. When he sold them however he lied and said that instead telling them what a indulenegence actually is he said it was a get out of Purgatory free card (for those who don't know the Catholic idea of Purgatory it is a period before getting to heaven were the saved going to heaven are cleased from all of there imperfections). However that was completely and totally wrong and even blasmpous, here is what an Indulegence is and isn't. (BTW the following is from an online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia)

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS

An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive.

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS NOT

To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.

Here's a link to that page for futher reading on indulgences http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm


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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Let me make sure I have this right.

A "remission of the temporal punishment due... to sin that has been forgiven... through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive."

Does that mean that you're going to be punished by the church for a sin that God's forgiven you for unless you get an indulgence?

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
 


Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :
 
I think the basic beliefs of both sides are the same, but each side is being different to justify their existence. I think its sad when Protestants bash Catholics and vice versa because what they're doing in the end is attacking Christianity.

I'm not attacking, I'm just pointing it out because the same situation also exists in Islam with the Shi'ites and the Sunni's. The thing that needs to be addressed is that they're both the same religion, be it different sects, so just accept each other as Christians or Muslims etc and not attack each other for being different sects.

I think that it's extremely sad that that people can't look beyond this, especially when we're supposed to be 'civilised'.

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Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 
From what I can remember of what my sister has told me(she's a Lutheran Pastor), I think Baloo has it pretty much right. She told me that Martin Luther, while drunk, refered to the Pope as the antichrist. Hung over, but sober, he stuck to his words the next day. Got in some trouble over that one.

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Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 
(Double Post) Da** valueclick adds!

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"One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor". George Carlin

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
O fun it's multiple defense time:

To Omega: errr no, actly the only thing you need to do after forgiveness for a sin is to do whatever the priest asked you do, which could be praying certain prayers, asking for the persons forgiveness, or reflecting on why you committed the sin (and you honestly have to want to repent and not commit the sin any more). I am not really sure what the indulgence does, but I know you don't have to pay for one.

To Orion Syndicate: Actually Catholics want only one Church too, we actually pray for the reunion of the catholic church (btw this is not the same as the Catholic Church, catholic means universal, we literally pray for one universal Christian religion, which ever it may be Catholic or not). Religous differences are just that differences, and honestly I have never, ever heard a priest blash another Christian religion, mostly they only talk about them in a kind matter.

to Kosh: errr no what Luther got in trouble over is his 95 thesis which he nailed to some churchs door, the real trobule when it got to printing presses, then (pardon the pun) all hell broke loose. Then it became a politcal football, with German princes took Luther's cause mostly because it would let them get all the churchs concidable assets on there lands, which was a LOT of money. Soon princes from both sides started wars over this, not over religion, but power and money.

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
 


Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 
Most large scale fights boil down to Power and Money.

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"One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor". George Carlin


 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
So is there any reason for getting an indulgence now?

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Is it just me or are we justing trying to create religious threads? A good place to go find this all out would be the library or even the 'net.

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With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.


 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Basically, the easiest division is that Protestantism believes understanding of God comes from the literal personal study of the Bible, wheras Catholicism emphasises sermons from a Priest as taking precedence over literal verses. It emphasises the words of a priest as God's wishes being communicated to the parish, or something like that. Confessional practices and a lot of stuff surrounding the role of the Virgin Mary also play a role in differentiating the two, as does the extent of how tightly-knit the Trinity is.

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"MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!"
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Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
HMS White Star: You ought to know me better than that. I was confusing purgatory and hell. I grew up in a protestant family and almost all my knowledge of the Catholic church is second hand, much of it from clearly biased sources. I used a light tone, admitted I was probably wrong about some points, and invited others more knowledgeable than I to fill in the blanks and correct errors. Put a sock in it.

His information regarding the nature of an indulgence is correct. I quote: "...extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven..." seems to be saying that instead of doing a penance (the penitent act the priest assigns you to perform to show your contrition) you can get an indulgence (is contrition the correct term?). I wouldn't suppose the church sells them anymore, so who determines who gets one?

[Just read the page on indulgences and am even more confused]. Apparently an indulgence doesn't get you out of a penance. So if the indulgence doesn't get someone out of doing a penance, just what does it do? Does it shorten your stay in purgatory or what?

This is my last comment on this thread.

--Baloo

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Sorry Baloo I deserved that, I should have gotten so mad over that (it's just I am defensive of what the Catholic Church gets blamed for that it did not do). I wasn't mad at you for making a misinformed statement, I respect your opinions, and you admitted that your knowledge in the area was somewhat lacking. Instead of giving a witty and informative response I yelled and got angry which is wrong. So, relising my mistake, I humbly ask for your forgiveness for my angry words.

P.S actually the Church doesn't sell indulegences anymore, actually the pratice stopped in 1567's (an excert from the Catholic Encyclopedia)[In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions]. And honestly I am a little confused too, I guess indulegences helps to take off time in purgatory.

Again sorry Baloo for the comments.

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited October 18, 1999).]
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, if we just wait ten thousand years or so the Commission of Ecumenical Translators will get together and write the Orange Catholic Bible.

And, since I'm in a Dunish mood, the one commandment all religions share: "Thou shalt not disfigure the soul."

*is dragged away*

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"Quadrilateral I was, now I warp like a smile."
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Soul Coughing
 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
*emerges from a Torque Chamber and winks at Sol*

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"Well, I guess we're an Ovaltine family."
"MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!"
-American Radio Ads... *gag*... one more reason I'm glad to be above the 49th.



 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
Okay, so I lied about not posting. The discussion has taken an interesting turn. The following is not the exact words used by experts to describe the purrgatory process. (I invite HMS White Star to correct any further errors -- tactfully, please! )

Apparently even a forgiven soul is somewhat "tarnished" upon its arrival in the afterlife. Unforgiven souls go straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and generally don't have a good time of it. Truly saintly souls ascend directly to heaven, are given the keys to the pearly gates, and given eternal membership in the heavenly country club (or something like that, though perhaps not comprehensible in human terms).

Everyone else (forgiven, but perhaps not saintly, either) goes straight to purgatory. Descriptions I have heard imply that purgatory is like hell, but you are only in for an amount of time determined by God himself, and depending upon the type and severity of the sins you were forgiven from. While in purgatory, the forgiven, but tarnished soul, undergoes "spiritual rehabilitation" to remove the effects of sin (I'm guessing, but that's what it sounded like). The description sounds like "hell-with-a-time-limit". It's awful, but it ends, and when it does, your soul is no longer scarred and tarnished by the effects of sin.

Apart from the speculative bit about saints, I think that's what it's all about.

One question: since indulgences aren't sold, who actually gets them, how and why?

--Baloo

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A well-intentioned fool can get into more trouble than any number of rapscallions.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/


[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 20, 1999).]
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
*remembers to send Tom this month's bribe*

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"Quadrilateral I was, now I warp like a smile."
--
Soul Coughing
 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Well first anyone who will get into heaven is a saint (actually the technical defination for a saint in the Catholic Church is anyone in heaven).

Is Purgatory bad, well it depends on what you compare it to, is it bad compared to hell, No because even wit the purifing fires surrounding you, you know I fact that you will be in heaven, period, no exceptions. Compared to heaven, it sucks because you don't get to see the face of God, which puts you in eternal happyness, the closest thing to purgatory, would anywhere else would be a normal life on earth, with the exception, that you aren't going to die again (cuz your already dead, and you have are going to heaven eternally, which is no big deal since you have all the time in the world). Anyway knowing that you are going to heaven is the big advantage there, the only trouble is you can't wait until you get there.

Well on indulegences the Catholic Church gives indulegences for doing certain actions, while you don't get anything on paper it is still an indulgence, example is Praying certain prayers at certain times, wearing certain objects, or going to certain places (the encyclopedia was a vague about that, and frankly I have forgetten that part) Anyone who isn't in mortal sin, who is alive can get an indulgence.

Cool I just found out what indulgences do (from the online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia)...

In the Sacrament of Baptism not only is the guilt of sin remitted, but also all the penalties attached to sin. In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory (q.v.). An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.

Btw this is about the limit of my knowledge, I have do remember this information but I referring heavily back to the Catholic Encyclopedia to remind me) btw here is the articles URL http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm and here is the URL of the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
 


Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
*figures it would be wise to step in about now*
Let's see... Purgatory, heaven, and hell. Having just gotten confirmed last year, this is all fresh in my mind. First things first: there are official terms for purgatory, heaven, and hell. Purgatory is the church suffering, here on Earth is the church militant, and heaven is the church triumphant. Now, in order to pass go and collect $200 (skip purgatory) you have to either: A) die as an infant who's just been baptised, or B) just come out of confession. If you went to confession, confessed ALL of your sins, and then got hit by a bus on the way out, you go straight to heaven. No questions asked.

Now, as for what purgatory is, it's temporal punishment. Say a mass murderer like Al Bundy is Catholic and dies. He goes to purgatory. He spends about, say, 100 000 000 000 Earth years there in purgatory. Now, that may seem like a lot, but to him it would be just like that *snaps fingers*.

And you can only be declared a saint after you die, BTW

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Now with only 1 popup!



 


Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
 
I am always amused by detailed chronologies and administrative processes people present as if they were the definitive texts for "So you've just died" leaflets. Bottom line is nobody knows what happens. Some people believe certain things on faith, because they've been brought up on such things or whatever.

We risk lapsing into personal theologies here, but I sure won't be knocking myself out to get a plenary indulgence next year by going to a certain mass at a certain place. If there's a God I'd rather just discuss my conduct in a civilised way once I die; Perhaps over some tea and crumpets. ("Well, Monty there are a few incidents I'd just like to go over..." )

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"FOOLS! Will I have to kill them ALL?!?!"


 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Ah Fabrux you have forgotten a few things.

First you just got confirmed, cool. However there are a few things that are incorrect first the only why (in Catholic Theology) that any Christian goes to heaven (purgatory is just a intementite step, cuz your going to heaven, just not yet). Must be forgiven of his or her sins. So if Al Bundy goes to confession right before he dies will he go straight to heaven not nessacarly. Here's the problem, if you confess all your sins and aren't repeatant then you are not forgiven because you really wheren't sorry for your sins. Further if you don't do the things that the priest tells you to (normally some prayers) then you aren't forgiven, so if before you left the confession and you ignored the what the priest said, perhaps he asked you not ask for forgiveness from the person you hurt and you didn't do it, then your aren't forgiven. Also just because you are forgiven of the sin doesn't mean your won't get the punishment from the sin, it just means means you are forgiven. It's like if you stole you mom and dad's car the "should" forgive you from stealing the Car, but do you think that they won't give you a punishment, errr no (unless you are my little brother).

*Will edit this post later, My little bro needs the compy, more content to follow*

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited October 20, 1999).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
I'll go in with Monty on that one. God and I just HAVE to have a little chat some day.

Heaven: Don't know if I'm going. Doesn't much matter. Either most of the theology I've heard is wrong, and I'm going, or its right, and I wouldn't WANT to. Heaven as I keep hearing it described (a vast city where you praise and sing throughout eternity) sounds DREADFULLY boring, to me. A heaven we get to choose, though.. that could have promise. Me, I'd want to spend eternity travelling to every planet and moon in the universe, just to see what they looked like. By the time I finished a circuit, everything back where I started would have changed, so I could do it all over again.

Hell: Could somebody explain this to me again? Just what is the POINT of Hell? What useful purpose does it serve? Purgatory sounds better for everyone, I think. Purgatory should be a place where you are confronted with the reality of your actions, the truth about yourself and your place in the universe, and everything you did to screw it up. Then you start working to fix yourself... probably includes begging forgiveness of the people you hurt. Once you're better, then you ascend. Hell, if you'll pardon the pun, has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. You're there, you're stuck there forever. What good does that do? Eternal pain, despair, and torment would seem to be incompatible with the concept of a loving, all-powerful Deity. After all, omniscience and omnipotence means you're smart enough to figure out a way to redeem EVERYBODY, and CAPABLE of doing it, as well, doesn't it?

I'll do my time in Purgatory, if that's what it takes... but Hell? That's just daft.

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
I don't think anyone here is trying to do anything more than explain what the Catholic church's view is on heaven, hell, etc. Many of us did not know these things, and I, for one, simply got confused looking at the Catholic dictionary.

It's good to ask questions about these things. Even if you don't believe, it's good to understand what your friends do, even (or especially) if they don't believe what you do.

--Baloo

Postscript: So now we know what caused the schism between the Catholic and Protestant churches, and what purpose purgatory is supposed to serve, and what it is believed to be like. What next?

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A well-intentioned fool can get into more trouble than any number of rapscallions.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/



 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I'd like to know where the calculators go.

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"Quadrilateral I was, now I warp like a smile."
--
Soul Coughing
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
1of2:

You want to know the point of Hell? The way I have it figured, God never destroys anything that He creates, but He will punish those who don't ask for forgiveness (or, in philosophies including Purgatory, those who will NEVER ask for forgiveness, by the very nature that they've built up for themselves, ala Satan) for eternity. Some people choose "The Dark Side", and they can reach a point of no return. The Bible says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. I believe this is because human nature is such that, once this sin is committed, there will be no repentance, and thus no forgiveness. God COULD redeem everyone, but that would go against the concept of free will. If He forced you to be repentant, there wouldn't be much point. You have to CHOOSE Him, not be forced into it.

Sol:

Calculators? No idea. But I do know where win.ini goes when your system crashes.

"And to this day I do not know the place to which lost data goes.
Perhaps it goes to Heaven, where the angels have it stored.
But as for productivity, well, I fear that it goes straight to Hell. And that's the tale I have to tell.
Your choice: Abort, Retry, Ignore."

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
You know, there's also the Seventh Day Adventist view. That is, that nothing like hell is mentioned anywhere in the Bible in regards to a place where people will go when they die, and that God will simply destroy the souls of the condemned in the end. Sounds a bit better then eternal damnation.

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"Quadrilateral I was, now I warp like a smile."
--
Soul Coughing
 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Here another place that Omega and the Catholic Church disagrees the Catholic Church believes there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, which is suicide (actually that was there old option there new one is that anyone who commits suicide is assumed to be mentally ill and is not in control of there actions and therefore it is not a sin)[btw this is in no way a personal attack it's just a old held belief]. Otherwise any sin can be forgiven, even "...blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin"...". Here's a question is that in the OT or the NT and exactly which book is that in?

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
I was reading an article which defined "blasphemy" today, and they classified it as a spiritual "misdemeanor." How's that unpardonable? What IS blasphemy, by your definition? Is it saying "Goddamit?"

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
HMS:

Matthew 12:31. And that would be an instance of the Catholic church directly contradicting Jesus, wouldn't it? Saying that there is no unforgivable sin when He specifically said that there is?

1 o' 2:

My definition doesn't really matter. God's definition of the original Greek word used by Jesus matters. Again, I'd say it's unforgivable because human nature is such that, once a certain event has taken place, repentance will not be asked for, and thus no forgiveness given. What that event is, I have no idea, but that suicide idea the Catholics used to have may just fit the bill. Assuming there is no purgatory in which you can correct your mistakes here, of course. Anyone know if there is a specific ancient Greek term easily translated as "suicide". Of course, then the situation might come up in which oe would try to commit suicide, but didn't die right away. You could then change your mind, repent, ask for forgiveness, THEN die.

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791


 


Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
 
Well actually I checked it out and it is Matterw 12:31-32

12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be
forgiven unto men.
12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

(King James version of the Bible)

Ok so what this says is you can curse against Jesus and be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit, if you take the bible literally.

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Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
One must listen carefully when discussing religion. Many terms are used to describe different things, depending on who's talking, and the dictionary isn't necessarily the final arbiter.

My understanding of "the unforgivable sin" is this: If you know perfectly well that God has done something and you willfully ascribe it to ungodly forces, that might be it. You are intentionally not just lying about God, but are trying to get others to buy into the lie.

If you think God is a dirty, hypocritical so-and-so and say exactly that, it's forgivable because God knows you really believe what you are saying. Even if it isn't the truth, you believe it is and aren't trying to mislead anyone about it. If you don't believe something (about God) but try to get others to believe it, that's when you're in trouble. Hmmm... Sounds kind of like preachers as portrayed on TV or in the movies (not without some basis in fact, I'm afraid).

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A well-intentioned fool can get into more trouble than any number of rapscallions.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 22, 1999).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
If three are one and one is three (a concept Jefferson found absurd), isn't a curse against one a curse against them all?

Of course, that bit of scripture may date from before the Dogma of the Trinity and of the divinity of Jesus was codified by the Nicean Council, and somehow escaped "correction?"

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
So saying 'Goddamnit' isn't blasphemy because in most cases you are not actually damning God, you are simply using a colloquial phrase that happens to include the words "God" and "Damnit"? Or should I have just said Silicon Heaven and be done with it?

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Cordellia: "Well, does looking at guns make you wanna have sex?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex."



 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Why does everyone seem to think that the phrase "Goddamnit" means that you're attempting to damn God? It means just what it says if you say it more slowly. Something more like a prayer when you're angry at something. "God, damn it." You're asking God to damn something else.

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"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791



 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
My view of heaven and hell is more similar to the one depicted in "What Dreams May Come."

Omega: In what way does God punish?

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.


 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Heaven is run by Cuba Gooding Jr.? Creepy.

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"Like I told you, you are concentric in your form. When it's cold you've got yourself to keep you warm."
--
John Linnell
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I assume you're refering to my post a while back about God never destroying anything, just punishing. If you're asking me what Hell's like, I really don't know (nor do I intend to find out!). The most obvious idea is that Hell is a literal lake of fire, but if you don't have a corporeal body, it'd have to be some spiritual equivalent of fire for that to work. If it were me deciding the worst possible punishment, I'd give everyone the knowledge of what they'd missed out on because of their own choice. They'd beat themselves up over it for eternity. But that's just me.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I thought standard Christian doctrine was that hell was a state of removal from God?

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"Like I told you, you are concentric in your form. When it's cold you've got yourself to keep you warm."
--
John Linnell
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
There's something I don't like in the concept that you have to ASK for forgiveness to deserve it.

I still don't see how Hell serves any useful purpose, and I can't concieve of a God who would create a whole world/dimension for nothing but tormenting His enemies for all time. It seems.. beneath Him.

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Sol:

There is really no "standard Christian docterine" in my denomination. The Bible says what it says, and you can draw your conclusions from that. The reason we don't know what Hell's specifically like is that we don't need to. But that would definitely be part of the punishment. As I said, He could just give everyone the knowledge of what they'd missed due to their own choices. The punishment would be self-inflicted.

1o'2:

"There's something I don't like in the concept that you have to ASK for forgiveness to deserve it."

You don't deserve it, even if you ask for it. That's the idea of mercy. You're forgiven, even though you don't deserve it. All you have to do is ask to be forgiven and actually believe that you will be. Is even that too high of a requirement?

"I can't concieve of a God who would create a whole
world/dimension for nothing but tormenting His enemies for all time."

I don't think that will be the purpose of Hell. Hell is simply a place where the unforgiven sinners will be removed from God's presence for eternity. The punishment would seem to be self-inflicted. Again, this is all just my opinion. If anyone's got any scripture to contradict this, please let me know.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
>" All you have to do is ask to be forgiven and actually believe that you will be. Is even that too high of a requirement?"

Well, considering that it leaves out a bunch of people who would otherwise deserve to be there, or who weren't "given" the knowledge or the choice, or died too soon to understand... yes.

What you're saying is that someone could be the most moral person in the world, could have done great things and benefited humanity throughout his/her life, but who dies without being "Christianized" (asking and believeing etc.), is, essentially, worse than the serial killer who "finds God" in jail, and repents as they're taking him to the chair.

This is unacceptable.

Oh, there was something else... aha!
If you really aren't deserving, but you believe you'll be saved anyway... isn't that unparallelled egotism?

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
"Well, considering that it leaves out a bunch of people who would otherwise deserve to be there..."

Again, NO ONE deserves to go to heaven. We're allowed because God has forgiven us. If someone does something to you and is never sorry they did it, are you going to assume that they're still a good person and won't do it again?

"What you're saying is that someone could be the most moral person in the world, could have done great things
and benefited humanity throughout his/her life, but who dies without being "Christianized" (asking and believeing etc.), is, essentially, worse than the serial killer who "finds God" in jail, and repents as they're taking him to the chair."

There is no "better" or "worse". Compaired to God, we're all dirt. No one is perfect. No matter how good you are, you'll still sin sometime. Again, if someone, say, lies to you once and is never really sorry that they did, you'd never assume that they're not going to lie to you again. God will do whatever it takes to get you to Him, but you still have to take one step on your own. Just one. He'll forgive you, no matter what you've done, but first you have to ask.

"If you really aren't deserving, but you believe you'll be saved anyway... isn't that unparallelled egotism?"

No. It would be unparallelled egotism if I believed that only Christians deserved to go to Heaven. We don't deserve it, either.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
First:

Ya know, there are probalby some churches that think those are unacceptable too, so don't come so hard down on the faith as a whole because one of us makes a comment on our personal beliefs.

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With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.


 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
By my understanding, Christ was the sacrifice that made it possible for humans to enter heaven at all. It does not necessarily follow that you MUST know that's why you get into heaven. It's just that if you know beforehand, you're in a better position to make an informed choice.

I believe that someone who does not know Jesus or knows of him but denies his divinity, who seeks the truth and tries to do what's right, might wind up in heaven (there's some precedent for that line of thought). There are others who, even knowing Jesus (or at least of him), who do "all the right things" because these things give them power, prestige, or even only a sense of "I'm better than you, you filthy heathen", who will be surprised when they show up at the Pearly Gates and are denied entry because they did not "know" God. They only tried to look like they did. A lot of televangelists are probably going to find themselves in that situation, I am sure.

First of Two, I believe God prefers an attitude of healthy scepticism to "holier-than-thou" any day of the week. The reason Christians evangelize (though apparently many lose sight of this) is that it's probable that the number who will be saved "by accident" is lower than the number who will be saved if there are instructions provided. It is not (or at least should not) be an attempt to "drive the cattle into the corral". When it is, it has no effect, other than to give people a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the term "Christian".

God wants us to have a loving concern for each other, and allows us the opportunity to reach out to one another without interference. Evangelism is one way we Christians can do that. Of course, there are some who think that is the only way we must, but that is not true. Every time we speak a word of kindness or wisdom or lend a hand to another who needs it, we show people the nature of God. Of course, there are a lot of "Christians" who live their life in such a way that anyone who knows them has to conclude that Christianity is a fraud, otherwise they would not do the things they do in God's name. Christianity isn't so much the victim of bad press as it is of bad examples.

--Baloo

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If this is the future, then where are all the flying cars?
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 31, 1999).]
 


Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
Hmm.... Isn't it interesting how threads get so off-topic? I had originally asked what the difference was between Catholicism and Protestantism so I could discuss it with my friend, but now we're discussing heaven and hell. How interesting...

And could someone explain the Pentecostal religion? My cousin apparently joined it, and my mom says she could tell she was Pentecostal by the way she dressed and the way her hair was, but I don't understand. Help?

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Fabrux's Starship Page

I am Canadian


 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
I don't know about the "dress code" but I've had Pentecostal friends and used to be a Charismatic (otherwise known as "Charismaniac" ) which is close, but not quite the same thing. The following is a perception based on my experiences.

Pentecostals believe that you haven't been really saved until you speak in tongues. What's speaking in tongues? It's getting so caught up in religious fervor that the Holy Spirit comes right down and starts talking for you in a language you don't understand.

In my experience, it's more along the lines of a Jewish proverb:

A man came into the Synagogue and started reciting the Hebrew alphabet. Puzzled, a Rabbi came up to him and asked what he was doing.

He replied: "I wanted to pray to God in Hebrew, but I don't know how. All I know is the alphabet. I'm just giving God the pieces. He knows what is in my heart and will put it together for me."

My experience is rather like that. Sometimes (especially recently) my heart is so burdened that I don't know what to pray. I just make the sounds that are in my heart (sometimes this has been inarticulate cries of anguish). God knows what the problem is and will act accordingly. It also reminds me that I can only control what I do. I must trust that just because I don't understand what's happening or why, it's not my job to be in charge of everything. Sometimes recognizing your helplessness actually helps you feel empowered, if only because it relieves you of any responsibility for what you do not control.

I don't know if that was a good answer, but if there are any Pentecostals in the forums, I'm sure they can add to what's been said and correct anything I incorrectly said about them. I also hope that they realize that nothing I said was intended as an indictment of their views, but a statement of what I understand.

--Baloo

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If this is the future, then where are all the flying cars?
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited November 01, 1999).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
*Does his excellent 'Picard in "Chains of Command, II"' impression:*

"I! AM! NOT! DIRT!!!"

Seriously. Question strongly ANY value system which has as a central tenet "you are dirt."

If you are in it simply to feel good, I can reccomend an excellent anti-migraine medicine that, as a side effect, creates an "exagerrated feeling of well-being." It works fabulously well. (I had my first dose last week and am still bubbly)

I don't question that religion can have a greatly beneficial effect on an individual, when taken in moderation and controlled (much like good food, medicine, and other things that make one feel good.)

But you're right. Take back the old topic. What's the difference? I don't really know, it's not that important to me. Catholicism had the Inquisition, Protestanism had the Witch Hunts. Same difference.

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'In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to Liberty; he is always in allegiance to the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." ---- Thomas Jefferson
 




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