. So simply God doesn't screw with the laws of physics unless he has to.Okay, the Problem of Evil goes like this:
"The existence of Evil is incompatable with the existence of a all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, always present benevolent Deity. Yet, evil exists. Therefore, said Deity cannot."
Let me show the basic points: We assume;
1. Evil exists.
2. Evil is incompatible with God.
3. God exists as described above.
The truth of the first is hardly disputable.
The truth of the second is claimed, at least by Christianity, who claim that God and the forces of Evil are engaged in a titanic struggle for Man's souls.
The truth of the third is held to be self-evident, by those same people.
The most common refutation to the above argument is "evil is man's own fault, his sins getting him back." However, this fails to explain evil that predated man, such as Satan and the Serpent. It also fails to cover "acts of God," and other natural disasters.
Another counter is "evil only happens to bad people." This, of course, we know to be untrue. Bad things happen to newborn, christened, baptized infants, and little children.
Another counter is "evil serves some beneficial purpose." (Or the "evil isn't really evil" theory.)This one is hard to counter, except with an incredulous look in the midst of great suffering, and the question "HOW?" This belief is a companion to the "everything happens for a reason" statement, which is basically a poor defense and an excuse for anarchy. As I myself replied to a minister who told be that, *TROD heavily on his foot* "Gee, that must have happened for a reason too..."
Another reaction to this argument is "if evil happens for a reason, why fight against it?"
Now, mostly, this argument, from my point of view anyway, deals with "unnecessary evil," or pointless suffering. That is, suffering from which much will be lost, and little will be gained, if anything. Deaths that have no meaning.
For instance, say you're Superdude. You look down as you're flying over Mega-city, chasing villains, and you see a small child about to be caught in the crossfire of a gang shootout. Now, with your super speed, invisibility, and mighty strength, you could easily zoom down, flick the bullet so that it JUST misses the child, and vanish back up to chase the villains at nearly the exact instant you left. You would never be seen, and absolutely NOONE would know you had ever been involved. Or at least not be able to prove it. You claim, in your role as Superdude, to be an invisible, omnipresent fighter for truth, justice, love, etc, etc, therefore you're obligated to your own press to live up to that.
And you let the kid get shot.
What does that make you?
Well, not a very good superhero, to say the least.
Now, you may say that to save the kid's life would be a violation of the "Free Will" clause in your superhero contract... but how does free will figure in to an accident? It doesn't. Free will only applies to a decision you make on your own. The kid didn't decide she was going to get shot today, it just happened. And it didn't need to. And nothing was gained from it, except her family's suffering and pain, a few blatherings from politicians and clergy who don't actually DO anything about it, and my wrath.
It's worse if you've already shown a willingness to violate the Free Will clause for certain people, causing "miracles," as it were. Why, Superdude, do you deny the rest of us? Even some of your biggest fans? Could it be because you only exist in the pages of your comic book?
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
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"Hey Mr. Boo, fly away home. Your house is so lovely, your children so nice."
--
Hello (The Band)
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...Approaching the big 250...
Unless I've missed some issues, Superman's never deliberately destroyed entire cities and their whole populations, and when people commit crimes in Superman's name, he does everything possible to stop them.
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
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...Approaching the big 250...
) got nuked when I taugh my mom how use e-mail, she didn't know how use anything or even how to double click a mouse, O well back to the topic. Well the best reason that I have that God wouldn't intervent is "Free Will" (O no there's that word again). Well the bullet example is accurate God could do that but he doesn't. Here a question though if God where going to stop the evil where would he do it, when the bullet stuck the child, no that's not evil simply the laws of physics, when the bullet flew thur the air, not evil again laws of physics (btw in the Bible God called everything in creation Good, since the the laws of Physics where created they are good). Ok lets go further, what about when the bullet was fired, no that's just a chemical reaction, when the triger was pulled, no just a mechnical reaction, Ok when the finger pulled the triger, no still just a mechnical reaction. So when did the evil occur, simply when the decision to fire the gun with the intent to harm or kill was made. So if God wanted to stop the evil in that instantase he would have to change the person's mind, so what's wrong with that, FREE WILL, or simply doing that would show that people didn't have Free WILL. So why couldn't God just stop the bullet from hitting the kid, well simply because while the child wouldn't have been harmed, an evil still happened, because the intention was to harm a person. Example just because you don't kill a person does that mean you scott free, hell no, you get changed with attempted murder, so in the same way God to stop the evil at that time would have had to change the person's mind (actually even the thought of murdering someone is evil, so God would have to go back in time to stop the thought before it happened, by cutting out one of the person's choices, God removes the Free Will). Also Just because an action doesn't happen doesn't mean there is no evil. Example, let's say that God came down and stopped all physical violence, no killing, no punching, no boxing . Ok that ends all the evil in the world, right, wrong. Remember word can do just as much evil as actions. Ok lets say God says I will stop all the foul language in the Universe, so God has two options he can either bleep all the language out, or not allow us to think of foul language (I think the bleeping would be funny, it reminds me of what happened Cartmen on the South Park Movie when they implanted the V-Chip, "Shut up Mother$*#&%@, hey what the h*ll is going on here, what the &^%$ is going on, who the &$@$ is doing this ." So is God going to stop all of evil thoughts from happening. Ok lets say God lets us think anything we what but keeps out all other evil, does that make the world and not evil place, no, because our actions are defined by our thoughts, our thoughts can be evil even if our actions are good. Example is doing the right thing for the Wrong reasons. An Example is our Action in Kosovo, which is right to save people from being hurt, but not because they are being hurt, but because it is in Europe. So we would not help a nation in let's say Africa in the same sitution, nope sorry not in Europe, is that good, nope is that evil, yes, however the action of sending troops into Kovoso is good.Ok natural Distrasters well that falls under the Second rule, which is when the Universe was created God set up rules of how the Universe worked, from there God decided to abide by his own rules (unless something he decides that it is absolutely neccessary to defy them, what reason who that be well a reason that all knowing, power God thinks of). Ok lets say there is baseball game that a person prays to God to stop a ball that is falling foul so it goes fair, this brings up an interesting problem because if the ball starts to go fair then a person on the other team prays that it will go fair, so what is God to do. Simple let the ball fall on it's current course, the same logic can be appiled to wars, games of chance and even flame wars . So simply God doesn't screw with the laws of physics unless he has to.
Finally the logical method First of Two used to "prove" there is no God has one major flaw (can remember the name of the method but here an example of the flaw in action.
I have discoved the secret identity of God, which is Ray Charles.
Let me show the basic points: We assume;
1.) God is love,
2.) Love is blind
3.) Ray Charles is blind
Therefore Ray Charles is God .
The first is commonly assumed by most Christians (well at least that's the ideal . The second is assumed by most people that love is blind. The third is simple to prove Ray Charles is blind.
Finally I has to be hard being God, having all this power and all this love for everyone, but not being able to save everyone, but of course he has one last chance because people can join him in heaven, still he must feel sad every time someone is hurt and he doesn't do anything about it. I would never want to have that kind of responability.
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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
I'm less concerned with what God actually does than I am with what people think he does. Case in point (I have actually heard something like this more than once): Someone gets cancer or incurable disease. Christian says: "oh, it's not God's fault. It happened for a reason humans cannot comprehend." Or something to that effect. After a while, the same person recovers "miraculously" from disease. Christian says: "It's a miracle from God! Praise the Lord God Almighty!"
If he can get away with all the bad things and get credit for all the good ones, I'd say he HAS to be perfect!
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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"
White star, you just GOTTA learn to use smaller paragraphs. Or shorter sentences.
Anyway, evil occurs when harm is done. I'm not asking God to stop EVERYTHING that causes pain (that's a slippery-slope argument), just those things that cause needless suffering. Just fatal accidents. Just things that kill children. How hard can it be to find a way around that when you're Omniscient?
I mean, God says He protects His followers, but from all of what I've seen, (like that Tornado that blew through a church in Kansas and killed an elementary-school-aged choir girl) they have to already be dead (in which case their resurrected souls are supposed to be invulnerable anyway, so what's the point?) to be afforded this.
And I still can't see how you can have Free Will in a Universe wherein exists a being who, through omniscience, already knows every decision you're ever going to make, and the outcome. (which is the very DEFINITION of Omniscience = knows EVERYTHING past, present, and future included, unless you want to deny that God is omniscient, or redefine what "omniscient" means.)
Can you surprise an omniscient being? Can someone who KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that something MUST happen be justified in being angry when it does?
On the gripping hand, if everything happens for a reason, why can't we at least be told what that reason is? And why do so many events have to be negative rather than positive? Why can't the bullet MISS "for a reason?"
Why couldn't the car NOT have slid on ice "for a reason?" Why couldn't the bit of metal have bent 5 centimeters to the LEFT instead of the right "for a reason?" I mean, if there was some Greater Reason that I had to watch my Imzadi bleed to death, I'd sure like to know it, because the only lasting change it had on ME was I converted to "No Involved Deity"-ism. That and I'm a much darker person now.
I'd chalk that up as a loss for the Big Guy.
And now I've said too much, and made myself angry again.
Yes, I'm angry. But I'm angry for a lot more than one person who I happen to have known.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who would allow some of the things that happen to happen.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who would let a mother sell her own 3-year-old daughter to two perverts down the street for sex.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who inflicts the SAME daughter with migraines, interstitial cystitis, cervical vertebrae that nearly cause her to lose her arms, and then allows her to be raped while she's in college.
FOR NO GOOD REASON.
If this be treason... I will make the most of it.
If there is a God, I want some concrete answers from Him. Soon. Just so I know whose side to be on when the Last Battle comes.
Now you know why I'm the nicest "of the damned."
*exits ranting mode*
breathe...breathe...
'S okay, I'm all better now. Inner Demon exorcism over. Standing down from Red Alert.
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 19, 1999).]
First of Two said "Can you surprise an omniscient being? Can someone who KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that something MUST happen be justified in being angry when it does?"
Well, no you can't surprise and Omiiscient being, but anger is different story. For example if you have a friend dying of Cancer and after much suffering he dies, well you knew he would die, true and you were already sad. So the day he dies are you not sad, of course you are sad, even though you knew he would die soon. If God created us in his image and likeness then God has emotions as well as logic, so people think God is all logic, he isn't, he more like us than we think, he gets angry, sad, happy, and depressed. So he knows everything, so what, he has all the power in the Universe, but he has limited himself by rules that he will not break (unless he has a good reason).
Also God protects and watchs over all his creatations, humans, birds, etc, etc. Not just his followers. Does he always protect people from physical harm, No.
First I grieve for your lose of your Beloved, but don't blame God, it was his natural system that killed her not God. I know that is absolutely no comfort to you, So I will give a prayer to the soul of your Beloved. I will also pray for you that can forgive God for his actions.
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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
Only God can KNOW what MUST happen, due to His omniscience. He knows, by definition, that things CANNOT be any other way. (In other words, an omniscient God KNEW the snake was in Eden, KNEW it would tempt Eve, KNEW she would eat the apple, KNEW she would get Adam to as well, ALL IN ADVANCE!) This, of course, would mean that the punishment afterwards was a sham. That Eden was a set-up.
In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down.
"Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*
As for the rest of my post... sorry. Perhaps I let it get WAY too personal.. but dealing with these questions IS a VERY personal thing, don't you think?
It's interesting that you say you hope _I_ can forgive _God._ Sounds like something out of Anne Rice's "Memnoch the Devil:" (The real key to getting into Heaven isn't God being able to forgive you, It's YOU being able to forgive HIM.)
Let's see, thus far I've charged Him with neglect, hypocracy, conspiracy, entrapment, and murder.
Yeah, I'm goin' to Hell. 
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
The first point is correct God knows everything so he knows how stuff will happen not must happen, there always more than one option. The stuff about Eden is true to. So what's the problem, well Free Will (I have said that a lot) means than God has to let us to decide for ourselves, otherwise we would be mindless drones. Either free Will or mindless drones there really nothing in between. Eden wasn't a set up Eden was when God gave us an option, and Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, if God stopped them, no free will.
First said "In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down. "Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*"
Actually in the so called "Just" Universe, Superdude would have never forbidden Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, because without being forbidden there is no sin (however they would still have the knowledge of good and evil). However in the Real Universe God forbid them to eat the fruit, which is actually loving, since he didn't want them to know there was good and bad, to believe there is only good, which is like a parent trying to shield a child from all the bad in the world. Anyway the temptation didn't come from the Snake just the devil itself, the snake is a symbol of the Devil's tempting, it would happened anyway. Sure God could have stopped the Snake from tempting, but like a parent instead holding on to there child the let the child try to walk, knowing they could (and likely will fall). Why because they want there child to grow up. We fell, I know God didn't like that, but after the fall he didn't just waive his hand and make it go away (since he's all powerful he could do that), but he let us grow up to be like adults and he loses some along the way. I really can't defend what God does or does do. What I do know is he has plan for everyone, whether we follow the plan is another story.
Frankly, I have no idea why God does what he does and allows the Universe to happen, I wouldn't what to know why. Now I have my Own problems to worry about which is loving God. I didn't know why I believed, but wasn't really religious and really didn't love anyone. Until I was told in blunt terms that I didn't love myself. The funny thing is it is comply true, I don't love myself or anyone else. O well those are small problems compared to yours First.
First I have one question for you, do you in any way blame yourself for your beloved's death. Before you explode on me, I mean in any way, like saying "I could have done something" or "I could have done more" (or something like that). Think about it for a while and search your heart. If you do blame yourself forgive yourself I am sure the person you loved didn't what you to carry all this pain around. Ok you can explode on me now. Sorry for the dime store psycology, now I going to get flamed now and ever more.
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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
You don't see the point. Knowing everything means knowing EVERYTHING. If God exists and is omniscient, he knows not only what will happen, but he knows all the options open to every individual, and knows in advance which ones that individual WILL choose. (in other words, what MUST happen.) This negates free will. The contradiction is unavoidable when you claim something is omniscient. God knew what choices would be made in Eden, and how they would be made. And even who would eat the first bite of "apple," and how it would taste, and how many steps Eve would take before she got to Adam, and exactly what the Serpent would say, and when he'd breathe during his Serpentspeech. ALL of it, if He's Omniscient.
First said "In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down. "Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*"
"However in the Real Universe God forbid them to eat the fruit, which is actually loving, since he didn't want them to know there was good and bad, to believe there is only good, which is like a parent trying to shield a child from all the bad in the world."
Which often turns out to do more harm than good. What you're advocating above is, essentially, deception on the part of God.
"Anyway the temptation didn't come from the Snake just the devil itself, the snake is a symbol of the Devil's tempting, it would happened anyway."
Not if the Devil had been destroyed. How hard would that be? *Zaap!* gone.
(Unless you're saying Good can't exist without Evil, in which case Eden couldn't have existed before the Fall... and it also begs the question "How did God, who is all good, exist before the creation of the Devil?")
"Sure God could have stopped the Snake from tempting, but like a parent instead holding on to there child the let the child try to walk, knowing they could (and likely will fall). Why because they want there child to grow up. We fell, I know God didn't like that, but after the fall he didn't just waive his hand and make it go away (since he's all powerful he could do that), but he let us grow up to be like adults and he loses some along the way."
Yes, but what parent spanks the child for falling down? What parent gets ANGRY because his child walked on his own? This analogy falls apart at a touch.
"First I have one question for you, do you in any way blame yourself for your beloved's death. Before you explode on me, I mean in any way, like saying "I could have done something" or "I could have done more" (or something like that). "
Used to, back during the earliest days of the trauma. Not anymore. No real point. Since I am not omnipotent or omniscient, there's no way _I_ could have forseen, prevented, or counteracted what happened. No, I don't blame myself. I don't blame her. I don't blame the ice, and I don't blame the metal.
I blame God for pulling his Londo Mollari impersonation. (this observation will only make sense to those of you who saw the 5th season Babylon 5 episode "The very long night of Londo Mollari." In this episode, I see myself as G'Kar and God as Londo. OR, I would LIKE to see that played out, I should say.)
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
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"Elevator to hell, going up." - What Dreams May Come
How can something be "good" without "bad"? Since these two are polar opposites, one cannot be defined without the presence of the other. If someone never knew evil, all the "good" around him/her cannot be called "good" because there's nothing to compare it to. Another example: hot and cold. If temperature was always constant, there can be no comparison of low or high temperatures using "hot" and "cold". Therefore, in order for God to be called "good", evil has to exist.
One side note that has practically nothing to do with this, but I'd just like to mention. Genesis says that both Adam and Eve fell to temptation. BUT, while it took SATAN HIMSELF to tempt Eve, it only took Eve to tempt Adam.
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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Yep! That's God's punishment.
"You think you're so smart? Well now ya gotta take orders from THIS block o' wood! YEAH! Waddaya think o' THAT?!?"------------------
I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/
Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
Oh, and Adam's punishment?"And YOU! You dolt! Now you use that dim bulb of a brain I gave ya! SHEESH! If I'da known THIS would happen I'da taken up trains instead!"------------------
I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/
Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
Well Tora if you believe the Garden story (not neccesary the timeline for creation, but the intent of the story) then your will notice in the story that this is stated "and it was good" about three or four times, what does that mean simple, it was good or at the start of creation there was no evil. So how does something become evil, simple free will (not that word again) how did the Devil become evil, by turning away from God, how did Adam and Eve lose Paradise, because they rejected God. What evil is, is a corruption of good and God couldn't create evil (I am not saying it's beyond his abilities, it would simply go against his nature) because he is all good.------------------
HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
You can't turn away from God unless there's another option present. You can't be inherently good (as Angels are supposed to be) and spontaneously "come over to the Dark Side," unless the Dark Side already exists. And for it to exist, _someone_ must have created it. Perhaps God has an evil twin, Bernie?Once again, if you accept the Theory of Omniscience, God knew Satan was going to go bad from the get-go, and created him that way, so it's His own damned fault. He put the spark and the potential for evil there.
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
Okay..... I havn't had alot of time to read all the larger posts in here, but I think I get the general gist of what's going on..... So i'm just going to give MY point of view on good and evil, and then go hide behind the big rock again.Opposites exist in this world for a reason. There is day, and night; The Moon has it's fullness and then it's darkness; There can be no Order without Chaos; There can be no dark without light, no good without evil. The reason I give for this is the reason of balance. The Universe stays in a constant precarious balance and if one side had all the power, it would unravel everything else. Anyone ever see that movie, Legend?
Anyways, as Tora was saying ... We _CANNOT_ know what light is unless we have also experienced the darkness. We can't know Joy unless we've known Sorrow .... we cannot know our good unless we have looked upon our evil.
Now then.... the definition of Good is "the opposite of evil" and the definition of Evil is "the opposite of good". This puts us in a very tough position.. WHAT is good? and WHAT is evil? ....... I say they are all relative. Every persons good and evil is going to be different ... the trick is knowing within yourself what you feel to be good, and what you feel to be evil.
Is there some huge big bad guy who lives in Hades and draws our souls to "the dark side"? Satan is a christian creation, invented to scare the people they were converting INTO converting. I don't believe in Satan, or the Devil, or any of that nonesense. But that doesn't mean that I don't believe in Evil. For me, it is "the dark side" itself that is the evil in this world.
In my religion, we are taught that the universe was split in half, one half to the God, the other to the Goddess, and that these halves converged together to create the one whole that was "The source" ... something that others would call God. "the source" teaches us to do good for eachother, help eachother, and harm no one with any of our actions. The general rule of the universe states that anything you send out from you comes back threefold as powerful .... I'm sure you've all heard "What goes around comes around".
It is when people get power-hungry and start hurting their fellow planet-dwellers (trees and such included), when these people use the power the source has given them to cause only pain and sorrow and darkness, THEN they become evil. But it is not because the devil made them do it, it is because they were silly enough to be seduced into thinking that they could cause only darkness in this world: and their payment for causing darkness is BECOMING DARKNESS. It is not the actions (as some would call "sins") of these people that alone are to blame. It is simply the thoughts that are to blame, for when they start thinking that they can do whatever they want, and hurt whatever they want, and NOT MAINTAIN BALANCE of the good and evil within them - THAT's what's to blame.So.... God exists and is Omniscient, and he knows there is evil in this world, and it exists because there has to be a balance between good and evil.
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"Elevator to hell, going up." - What Dreams May Come
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm going to avoid the theological debate entirely, but I wanted to resist the idea of good/evil dualism being necessary for either to exist.Good does not need to exist in order for evil to, or vice versa. For one thing, the terms are supplied by an observer. Only the concepts must exist. I can, for instance, think up hundreds of evil thoughts a day and never act on them, never make them a physical reality. And if no one but me knows they ever existed...
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"I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. Trust in me and fall as well."
--
Tool
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
In my humble opinion, Jubilee and Tora are on to something if you all have been reading closely. But allow me to expand on their comments.Why do we think of Good and Evil as two separate entitites? To take from Taoism, a better method (and more scientifically explainable in metaphors) would be to consider Good as an entity and Evil as the absence of that entity. That would be a better way ot explain the "coexistence" of the two in the world. Consider hot and cold. Cold does not exist. It is merely the absence of heat. In this way, Satan is not defending a specific point, but rather tearing down the other into chaos.
Now, the next leap is to ask why God can't fill the whole world with Good so that nowhere is it absent.
William of Ockham criticizes the seeming lack of action on God's part (especially in regards to Grace) saying God can do anything he wants directly; I, however, believe God freely has decided not to intervene over the will of humans when committing acts that increase the absence of Good. A. J. Benedetto writes, "...out of respect for human freedom God does not, though absolutely speaking and by an extraordinary intervention could, prevent the sin" [Encyclopedia of Catholocism, 4-126].
Not to make light of it all, but I think God is in a self-imposed struggle. He created a universe that he thought was Good, and he wishes to see it resolve itself through his grace and that grace influencing (but not controlling) the universe's mechnisms.
Maybe it's only me, but I think this makes a lot of sense. God could have obliterated Satan and the fallen angles, but he has chosen not to impose his omnipotence. Yes, things get messy down here, but this is God's choice, and one day, if he is truly a being of love, he will make good on his promise and bestow on us the joy that comes with heaven/nirvana/etc.
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"Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed.""...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
This is my first post of substance in this thread. I was struggling to put into words what I believe is the truth of the matter regarding this subject. I still don't have a complete answer, but I think David Sands brings up some good points.I don't know about any of you, but the inability to choose a course of action does not strike me as a characteristic of a "perfect" creation (perfect idiot, perhaps
I have more to say on this subject, but haven't chosen the right words yet.
--Baloo
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I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Is ordering your followers to obliterate all human life (men, women, children) in a city (in several cities, actually) an act of "Good" in any way, shape, or form?Is fragging a guy because he touched your "ark" while attempting to prevent it from harm an act of "good?"
Is sending false and confusing prophecies in order to mislead folks an act of "good?"
Is ANYTHING that happened to Job "Good?"
Is sending bears to devour 42 children because some of them teased your pet prophet an act of "good?"
Could slaying every firstborn son of Egypt REALLY be justified as "good?"
I think we all know who had a hand in the above.
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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Maybe God and the Devil are partners, good cop-bad cop, both hacking on us and splitting the doe! How do you like them apples?------------------
-Smooth as an androids butt, eh Data?
-Yes, and remarkably similar in appearance!
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
"Is fragging a guy because he touched your "ark" while attempting to prevent it from harm an act of "good?""The Ark was being carried in a manner other than that dictated by God. You don't do what God says, and he's got every right to fry you to a crisp.
"Is ordering your followers to obliterate all human life (men, women, children) in a city (in several cities, actually) an act of "Good" in any way, shape, or form?"
Again, same answer.
"Is sending false and confusing prophecies in order to mislead folks an act of "good?""
Name one.
"Is ANYTHING that happened to Job "Good?""
Well, let's see. He became a better person, he ditched those guys that called themselves his friends, he got back what he lost several fold, and God taught Satan a lesson.
"Is sending bears to devour 42 children because some of them teased your pet prophet an act of "good?""
Well, it taught the kids a lesson for a minute or two. Again, the country had fallen away from God. He would have been perfectly justified in wiping out the lot of them (well, He'd have to leave a few, as He promised that the Christ would come from their line).
"Could slaying every firstborn son of Egypt REALLY be justified as "good?""
It taught the Egyptians not to mess with the God of Isreal, and got Pharoah to let the Isrealites go.
This is all consistant with free will. You can do whatever you want, but if you don't do what God tells you to, there will be consequences.
------------------
HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'.
KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh!
HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'.
RANDOM: Ni!
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
The problem with those accusations, FirstO2, is that you're not taking into consideration the bit of free will and human error that exists. First of all, not all those things existed spefically because God made them happen. And secondly, there are many points in the Bible that are confusing simply because IT WAS WRITTEN BY HUMANS. The problem with the Bible, as anyone with sense knows, is that it has far too many interpretations. That isn't necessarily God's fault. We are all allowed to have our opinions about the way things are, and when God gave us different personalities, he automatically knew that we aren't all going to agree on things. And either way, that doesn't make god Evil.------------------
"Elevator to hell, going up." - What Dreams May Come
Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
"Well, it taught the kids a lesson for a minute or two."Dead men learn no lessons.
"Again, the country had fallen away from God."
According to your definition, name me one country today that hasn't "fallen away from God." Does God just not care anymore?
"You don't do what God says, and he's got every right to fry you to a crisp."
"He would have been perfectly justified in wiping out the lot of them."Sounds an awful lot like REVENGE to me.
"This is all consistant with free will. You can do whatever you want, but if you don't do what God tells you to, there will be consequences."
Hold it right there! We've been discussing on the first page that God does not interfere with free will, which is why God let Adam and Eve choose whether or not to eat the apple, which is how they fell from the Garden. But the interference of God in the events that humans *choose* to disobey him is a DIRECT VIOLATION of the Prime Dir--er, Free Will! It's not consistant with Free Will. Far from it.
On another point, I sure noticed a lot of people not doing "what God told them to" in this world. Surely you don't need me to site examples, do you?
------------------
"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This is a theological problem that people much wiser than myself have been struggling with for ages. How do you reconcile Jesus' "Suffer the little children to come unto me" to the OT's "Only if they don't call anyone names"?To my way of thinking, God of the Old Testament was essentially a child. His toy humans misbehave, so he slaughters them all. A city or two doesn't do what he wants, he has them burned to a crisp. A group of people is living where he wants the Israelites to be, so he orders them all killed. In the Old Testament, human life is exceedingly cheap.
To make a crude analogy, this is the same as catching your child writing on the wall and chopping their arm off for it. Even if I had spent the whole day telling my child "Don't write on the wall or you'll be in trouble" I don't think I'd resort to maiming or killing him or her.
What does this all mean? Again, people have been arguing that point for a long long time. The idea that God can do anything God wants is common, as Omega indicates. But this always reminds me of a quote from Richard Nixon during Watergate. "When the President does it, that means it isn't illegal." I reject that concept. Yes, I'm a godless heathen. But I think that there are absolute rights and wrongs in this universe, and they apply to every thinking being in it. Even God.
------------------
"I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. Trust in me and fall as well."
--
Tool
Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
I am God. Now quit this silliness and leave Me alone.Evil is for balance dumbass. You humans think you are so special. Really, you are not. You are machines. Biology is the final evolution of nanotechology. You are merely an experiment I'm conducting.
------------------
"I came upon a wedding, good old families had contribed.
Bethlaham the bride-groom, Babylon the bride.
Great Babylon was naked, ah she stood there trembling for me.
And Bethlaham enflamed us both, like a shy one at some orgy.
And when we fell together, all our flesh was like a veil.
But I had to draw aside to see the serpent eat its tail.
Some women wait for Jesus, and some women wait for Cain.
So I hang upon my alter, and I hoist my axe again.
And I take the one that finds me back to where it all began.
When Jesus was the honeymoon, and Cain was just a man.
And we read from pleasant Bibles, that are bound in blood and skin,
But the wilderness is gathering all its children back again."
excerpt from the song "Last Year's Man"
By Leonard Cohen.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"Isaiah 45:7 [said the Lord] "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
"The Ark was being carried in a manner other than that dictated by God. You don't do what God says, and he's got every right to fry you to a crisp."
How very "just and merciful" of Him.
>"Is sending false and confusing prophecies in order to mislead folks an act of "good?""
"Name one."
Okay. 2 Thessalonians 11-12 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
>Is ANYTHING that happened to Job "Good?""
Well, let's see. He became a better person, he ditched those guys that called themselves his friends, he got back what he lost several fold, and God taught Satan a
lesson.I'm sure that's a great consolation to his murdered sons and daughters.
------------------
"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Tora's post reminded me of something.. another way in which the "Free Will" argument is a sham.Hell. The threat of Hell negates free will, at least for all who believe in it.
"Okay, do what you choose, but if you do differently than _I_ want, you're gonna burn in Hell forever."
Yeah, THAT'S conducive to free will.
It's like the redneck $%#* who tells his girlfriend "Ah luv yew, and yew kin leave me iffin' yew want, But iffin yew do, Ah'm gonna get me mah shotgun an' blast yer damn fool haid off..."
Yeah, that's love. Like a STALKER'S love.
I'm everywhere.
I'm always watching.
Do what I want, or suffer horribly.------------------
"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Ziyal:"Dead men learn no lessons."
That particular line was a joke. Bad taste, I know, but...
"According to your definition, name me one country today that hasn't "fallen away from God." Does God just not care anymore?"
OK, the PEOPLE, then. Back then, a country was essentially held together by everyone believing in the same gods, thus if the country wasn't paying attention to God's laws, then the Jews weren't. The Hebrews were God's chosen people, and they turned away from Him. If you gave someone millions of dollars under the condition that they wouldn't spend it all for at least a year, and they went out and spent it all in a week, wouldn't you wait until you thought they'd changed before giving them more?
"Sounds an awful lot like REVENGE to me."
Revenge for what? What can you possibly do to hurt God? Try punishment.
"I sure noticed a lot of people not doing "what God told them to" in this world. Surely you don't need me to site examples, do you?"
One would assume that they'll be dealt with later. You'll notice that the only people struck dead in the Bible did something that God said He would strike them dead for. If I'm wrong here, let me know. Christ never said anything about striking people dead for anything.
Sol:
"This is a theological problem that people much wiser than myself have been struggling with for ages. How do you reconcile Jesus' "Suffer the little children to come unto me" to the OT's "Only if they don't call anyone names"."
Again, the difference is that the people were not doing what God said.
"To make a crude analogy, this is the same as catching your child writing on the wall and chopping their arm off for it. "
It'd be more like your adolescent teen, to whom you've given a set of rules but refuse to interfere in his life, spending his money on prostitutes, ignoring everything you say, and killing his brothers and sisters. You'd probably disown the kid, then if you ran into him again, treat him just like anyone else (show no mercy).
Are you equating the President to God? (Doesn't Bill wish?) And it's all His to begin with. He can do whatever He wants.
Cargile:
I find that entire post insulting.
1of2:
"How very "just and merciful" of Him."
It was just, and you only get mercy if you ask for it.
"I'm sure that's a great consolation to his murdered sons and daughters."
Satan killed them, if you remember the story, not God.
2 Thess. 2:11-12:
If you don't listen to what God says, when it comes time to choose sides, you're gonna be on the wrong one.
Isa. 45:7:
God is all-powerful and can lift you up or fry you like a salmon.
Amos 3:6:
Everything has a cause. Extending the analogies, if God char-broils a city, He has a reason.
"Hell. The threat of Hell negates free will, at least for all who believe in it."
To again use the adolescent analogy, it's like letting a kid do whatever he wants, but giving him a set of rules to follow. He still has free will, and can choose to follow the rules or not to, but you're gonna punish him if he doesn't.
------------------
HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'.
KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh!
HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'.
RANDOM: Ni!
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
If I'm not mistaken, Paul's post was sarcastic and meant as a joke.------------------
"I see you have the ring. And that your Schwartz is as big as mine!
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
"Satan killed them, if you remember the story, not God."How very convenient.
"Back then, a country was essentially held together by everyone believing in the same gods"
Using that definition, do you consider Jews and Muslims "fallen from God" because they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah?
"it's like letting a kid do whatever he wants, but giving him a set of rules to follow. He still has free will, and can choose to follow the rules or not to, but you're gonna punish him if he doesn't."
That analogy doesn't make as much sense if you look at teenager psychology. Adolescence is period of growth for, but not limited to, the emotional part of the mind. Why do teenagers tend to do risky things and defy their parents? To put it simply, they're testing their boundaries. They want to see what happens if they don't do what parents say, what school says, what society says. Considering this, parents should *expect* their teenager to rebel at one time or another, WHICH brings back another question. Wouldn't God KNOW beyond a doubt that those who disobeyed him were GOING to disobey him? Then, as with Adam and Even, the punishment is a sham.
But, as I said before, you can't learn from your mistakes if you're not alive. I've read lots of stories about teenagers who messed up their lives during adolescence but managed to live a more meaningful life in their twenties (if they're still alive). Even human parents (sane ones) don't kill their rebel teenagers for messing up.
------------------
"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
The ability to rationalize a loving God who kills children mercilessly is a dangerous thing.Those who have done this are responsible for more destruction in their God's name than any evil Satan has ever done.
------------------
"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
And I think we can all agree that those who kill other people in the name of "God" are not really "Godly". God never said "Go forth and fry all people not like you". WE INTERPRETED him to say those things.Listen, anyone can take any verse in the Bible and twist it around to their own benefit. THAT is the problem. People who want to smoke Marijuana can say that God created every herb in the Garden to be used.... but that doesn't meant that God is "Allowing" someone to smoke an illegal substance.... it just means that someone misinterpreted the Bible.
And that's the problem here..... no matter how you slice it, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT GOD WAS SAYING. We never will. We weren't there back then, we don't know what happened, and we sure as hell don't know what's happening now. I'm sure God's up there shaking his head at everyone who misinterpreted him and is probably addicted to mylanta and tylenol by now from all the headaches and heartburn we're causing him. (that was a JOKE, okay?).....
There's seriously no good explanation for Good, and Evil. Theres no good explanation for anything, but there are MANY ways of looking at a problem, and I think each culture had thier own way of solving it. I think every religion was created by a society who NEEDED something to explain things. An all-powerful diety fighting against a just as powerful evil thing works pretty well for that. And it had to be something that you couldn't see, because they could see no reason for it .... so they had to create one. Necessity is the mother of invention? ...
------------------
�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I am more than a little disturbed by the concept of a God who creates self-aware beings which are meant, if we take Genesis into account, to be equals to God, and then proceeds to treat them like bipedal cattle.------------------
"I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. Trust in me and fall as well."
--
Tool
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Sorry, Jubes.As far as I can read it, (and I'll bet even Omega will have to agree with me on this), there ARE parts in the Bible where God instructs his followers to attack cities, and kill All the people, men, women, and children, therein.
Our disagreement herein is not over whether it was said, for it most certainly was. The disagreement is over whether it was ethical to give the order, and whether it was ethical to follow it, and what ramifications that has on belief systems.
(In other words, is "when God does it, it isn't immoral" a justification, or an excuse?)
------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
The only thing I'll add to this is STUDY the Bible and the book of Revelations with a Christian who knows it well. If you refuse to do that you could never understand.------------------
It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
1701:Joke or not, I still find it insulting.
Ziyal:
"How very convenient."
No different than the six year old getting killed in a gang shootout. God allowed it to happen, not caused it.
"Using that definition, do you consider Jews and Muslims "fallen from God" because they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah?"
The Muslims weeren't God's people to begin with. I'm still wondering about the Jews. They worship God, but they don't in the way He commanded them to, and the old covenant was repealed when Christ died. Draw your own conclusion.
"They want to see what happens if they don't do what
parents say, what school says, what society says."Either that, or they just don't want to listen to their parents. Some kids do that. And most teens get back in line at some point.
"Wouldn't God KNOW beyond a doubt that those who disobeyed him were GOING to disobey him?"
Ah, the old "double predestination" argument. Yeah, He would. If He stopped them from doing whatever it was they did that got them condemned for all eternity, it would contradict free will.
Jubes:
"An all-powerful diety fighting against a just as powerful evil thing..."
Hang on just a second! Satan isn't as powerful as God! Nowhere close! God created Satan. Satan had to ask God before bugging Job. This isn't a war that will be won by a narrow margin. It's no contest.
Sol:
Equal to God? Where the heck did you get that idea? "In the image of God" doesn't mean equal to. It just means that we have some characteristic(s) that God has. And I don't think he treats us like cattle. Cattle don't have free will. They go where they're told because they have no choice.
1of2:
Of course I agree with you. You don't think that I just disagree with everything you say just because you're the one that said it, do you? : )
And Bryce is right, all of you. If you want to understand all of this, just sit down with someone who understands and study the Bible. It's all right there.
------------------
"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
First of Two:
Okay, you're right. Now that I recall more clearly, there were a few times when God did do that.Was it Ethical? I sure as hell don't know. I don't think anyone does. I'm sure that the people thought it was at the time. I mean, it makes perfect sense in their shoes: "God tells us that city of people are evil and insidious and must be killed so that they are punished for their sins and don't do more evil things."
This is just the same as an argument for the Death Penalty. Do we kill the person because they're evil and should get the ultimate punishment for their crime, and so they don't do it again? ..... OR should we not, because every life is precious and killing them doesn't teach the right lesson?
At the time, "God" gave them what seemed like a good reason. Now... If you can think of no reason on this entire planet when someone or something should be killed, you will not understand this: Simply because you think nothing should be killed at all. BUT, if you understand that sometimes people find a good reason to do something, Wether or not that reason seems to be good to other people, you will understand why these things happen. Right? Wrong? .... IT DOESN'T MATTER. That only starts MORE wars. Evil and Good, as I said before, are all Relative. I may find it a very good thing to kill off a mosquito because it bit me. Someone who collects mosquitoes is going to tell me i'm wrong because they cherish the life of a mosquito. *shrugs*.... different people, different cultures, different times... different ethics.
Omega:
Okay, I worded that wrong. It's not equal power, per se. It's two entirely different TYPES of power, but Satans is a bit more deadly, where God's is not quite the same way. But you have to admit, if Satan had no power, there would be no reason to worry about Evil at all.
------------------
�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I got it from the same place you got yours. For instance, are we not God's children? And do children not grow up to be like their parents? Didn't the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil contain the ability to make us as gods ourselves? Oh, the serpent was lying, as such beings are want to do. But the best lie is that which is simply truth put to other purposes. If the tree did not contain such power, why keep it off-limits at all?------------------
"I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. Trust in me and fall as well."
--
Tool
Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
No. I'm serious. Why bother joking? You are all programed like those virual fish you make for your screensavers. I don't even consider you alive because you are limited to physical representation. You don't think or have free will.
Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :
Sorry Jubes, God is all powerful, that means his power is more deadly, Satan power isn't more deadly (since it was granted by God origanlly), but Satan is more willing to USE his power, Satan is bound only by God(whom Satan tends to ignore), while God is bound by his own rules (which God can't ignore because he made the rules).Also while Satan does have power, he can't read minds, or force anyone to do anything. God on the other hand can, but chooses not to (well he does read minds, but doesn't force people to do stuff they don't want to).
------------------
HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
"while God is bound by his own rules (which God can't ignore because he made the rules)."except that He ignores these rules on a regular basis, if you believe in things like prophecy, angelic intervention, miracles, faith healing, and so forth. And when you give Satan free reign to screw with your most trusting subject (Job), well, that's almost as bad.
"Also while Satan does have power, he can't read minds, or force anyone to do anything. God on the other hand can, but chooses not to (well he does read minds, but doesn't force people to do stuff they don't want to)."
Sure He can. Exodus says numerous times that God's chosen method of punishing Egypt was to make Pharoah change his mind back after every time he decided to release the Israelites ("I shall harden his heart"), just so God could have the joy of inflicting more plagues upon Egypt. I'f he's left well enough alone, the Israelites would have gotten away after the FIRST plague, and nobody would have had to die.
Omega: "God allowed it to happen." Hm.. too bad God isn't bound by Good Samaritan laws. Instead, He's simply become an accessory to every crime ever committed.Remember that case in Denver, where that one kid watched as his buddy sexually assaulted and killed a little girl, and didn't do a thing about it, despite the fact that he could have?
Remember what people thought of that kid afterwards?
That kid is God. Except God watches it a thousand times every day, and is in an even better position to stop it.
------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
HMS:*nods* I bow to your superior knowledge. You are correct.
First of Two:
You can't look at what everyone else does "in the name of God" and expect that these actions necessarily mirror what "God" does. You say "God" constantly doesn't follow his rules. I'm not sure that's correct. I think that it is more the problem of "Christians" who do things "in the name of God" who are not really following the rules at all.
------------------
�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Sol:First, by the analogy, we're not grown up. We're still kids, and will be for the forseeable future (basically, eternity). Second, that's where the analogy ends. Children are never identical to their parents, anyway. No, the tree just gave us one more characteristic of God.
Cargile:
If we're virtual fish in a screensaver, then why are you talking to us?
1of2:
Who said His rules precluded helping us occasionally?
Somehow I doubt that they would have gotten away. It's possible that Pharoah would have changed his mind more quickly, and the Isrealites wouldn't have gotten to the sea in time. There's no way to know.
Again, if God stops anything we do, it denys free will.
------------------
"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
This statement:
"Who said His rules precluded helping us occasionally?"And this statement:
"Again, if God stops anything we do, it denys free will."Are mutually exclusive.
------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
By growing up to be like our parents, I'm thinking of things such as no longer being under direct parental supervision, moving out on our own, etc. Some people might be happy to live with mom and dad for the rest of their lives, I suppose.------------------
"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
1of2:No they aren't. There's a difference between helping and stopping.
Sol:
We can never reach the point where we can survive without God. Satan would chew us up in a minute.
------------------
"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
"If you want to understand all of this, just sit down with someone who understands and study the Bible. It's all right there."I find that disturbing. What is the credibility of a book that needs to be explained by someone who has spent loads of time "studying" it? And what constitutes "understanding" the Bible? Anyone can interpret it to his or her own purposes. I've heard an argument from white supremacists that all black people aren't humans because the Bible said (don't remember where) that only humans can blush, and black people can't. (Well, they certainly can, only that it's harder to see.)
------------------
"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Pigs blush. And sunburn! Plus, uh...no, this isn't the right place for that particular factoid.------------------
"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing
Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
Would you like your 400 level English book explained to you by a Ph.D. in Chemistry?------------------
It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Okay, Mr. "I understand the Bible better than any of you," Explain Mark 13: 1-30.For those of you who don't know it, it's where the disciples ask Jesus about the End Times, and Jesus recites a long list of all the apocalyptic things that are going to happen, (wars, brother against brother, no stone upon another left standing, yadda-yadda-yadda,) including his return in the clouds and the gathering together of all the faithful souls.
Then, in Mark 13:30, he says "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done."
Note: he says "THIS" generation, which, taken in its proper context, means the generation alive at the time of speaking, as upposed to "that" generation, which would mean some future generation. It is also obvious from context that JC is NOT talking about Pentecost.
So, either JC was wrong, or there are still some folks alive from a generation born nearly 2000 years ago.
------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
That prophecy is kind of a dual prophecy. It can refer to Armageddon, or it can refer to the seige and sack of Jerusalem in the sixites (I think). Sometimes it's hard to tell which He's talking about. And that word "generation" can also be translated as "race".------------------
"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Except that the siege and sack of Jerusalem in the sixties didn't include Christ's return on clouds and the gathering up of the faithful, did it?Didn't think so. Therefore, the only remaining option is that He was talking about Armageddon.
OH, and just what IS the difference between "helping" and "stopping?" Both require interference in "free will," and there's no difference in the end result between "helping" someone not get hit by a stray bullet, and "stopping" the bullet from hitting them. There's no difference between "helping" someone survive a tornado and "stopping" them from dying in it.
------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 26, 1999).]
Posted by Jubilee (Member # 99) on :
*sighs*.. what do you all hope to gain by this?------------------
�From Me all things proceed and unto Me they must return. Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold � all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. ... Know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.�
Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
"Would you like your 400 level English book explained to you by a Ph.D. in Chemistry?"I don't think you understand my point. Yes, there are other literature out there that require explanations from experts, but these experts do not concentrate on one book. On top of that, have you ever heard anyone use Shakespeare to justify bigotry and hate crimes?
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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
1 of 2: "generation" could stand for anything, most likely 'era.'I'd have to know the Greek NT, but I don't stary Greek until next semester.All things are done to glorify God and to finally bring us back into full communion with Him. (Rev.)
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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
One would think that "generation" would be most likely to stand for "generation." (Of course, since the most likely explanation would then mean that the Bible was wrong, it must be overlooked in favor of semantic legerdemain, right?)Oh, and wouldn't you actually need to learn Aramaic first?
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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
Well, if you won't accept that answer let me give you two more possible ones.1. The def. for generations is a human one. Jesus may have had a different def. After all, He spoke in parables and somethings He only told His disciples.
2. One possible, little known view is that we live in the "almost and inbetween". That is, we are very close to Heaven on Earth. That could explain the statement. I have not studied this myself yet, but I believe it is possible.
I don't have NT until next semester... speaking of reading, I need to get off this board.
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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Like I said, semantic legerdemain.For all you're saying. "generations" could mean "supper," and the world should have ended at dinnertime that day.
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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 28, 1999).]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
1of2:Some parts refer to Armageddon, some refer to the fall of Jerusalem, some to both.
The Bible was originally written in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT), with a little Aramaic in the OT, so why would we need to learn Aramaic before we learn Greek? Or is this just a Monty Python joke? The Greek word that was translated as "generation" can also be translated as "race". At the risk of sounding like a Mormon, it's a mistranslation.
The difference between helping someone and stopping someone from doing something is that you can refuse the help.
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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by BryanB on :
Unfortunately, mistranslation *can* account for a lot of misconceptions about the Bible and what was actually meant.I just finished spending an hour reading through all these postings. Fascinating discussion for a student of the Bible to read. But, I'll have to give it some more thought before a more in-depth reply. (One thing I don't like to do is step into something unprepared...James 1:19)
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BryanB
Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
Ok I'm not really God. Who needs that responsibilty huh? I'm really the devil. No, not Satan, that is merely a title. I'm not a true advisary. This whole thread is about evil and why a benevolent creature like God would allow it.
Hey, just because you are at the top of the food chain doesn't mean you are special. It just means you kill better than any species alive. It doesn't have anything to do with brains, but is more to do with not having claws and sharp teeth and not being able to run fast, and you created subtituitions for those genetic weaknesses. That you do a good job with--untapping the energy of the atom for destructive purposes was far beyond our expectations of you. Accolades to the human beast.
We are actually very bemused by your attraction to figuring out this whole good-evil thing we got going on. We are more amused that you seek to find some sort of explaination for one or the other. Honestly, the other animals don't really care about the concept. It is rather simple. I got to live, something has to die. That is the cycle. That is reality. You humans confuse the issue by superimpossing morality over it. You invented morality, not us. The sematics of good and evil don't even come close to concerning us because we are so above that concept. We are gods afterall.
In our eyes, there is no concept of good and evil. It is what needs to be done to achieve the outcome we are looking for. And there is no master plan. We are just fucking off. It's like a road trip. Spontaneous, unknown, and just for fun.
So why are you people so damned concerned with it. Just fucking live. Be a participant instead of an obswerver and go with the flow.And hey, I'm not out to offend anyone. If you are offended it is because you have your head so far up your ass, you can't see anything but shit.
Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
I went to a fellowship today composed of only females in my youth congregation. The pastor's wife, who's currently earning her Ph.D. in a seminary, shared the story of how she met her husband. It goes like this: She was an international student in L.A. and went up to northern CA during a ten-day mission trip. There she was offered a job at a church and "miraculously" received funding from another church to cover her tuition and housing if she were to move the San Francisco. She went back down to L.A. to pack up things and say goodbye, but had to return to SF six days earlier because of a friend. When she returned, she spent the spare weekend (when she would otherwise still be in L.A.) at a 3-day retreat. And there, she heard the complaint of an elderly woman about her son who's suddenly going into ministry and was compelled "by the Holy Spirit" to share her own testimony. Afterwards the old woman introduced her son to her, who would become her husband two years later.There is a point in mentioning all this. Throughout the entire time she was telling the story, she credited her getting the money, forced to return to San Francisco too soon, going to the retreat, and the old woman's sharing her testimony to "God's will" and "God's plan". She said that our plans don't matter because God has a plan of his own, one that will happen no matter what we do. Then she went on and told us that we don't really need to go out and look for a potential husband because God will give him to us, which is why we shouldn't date unless we intend to marry the guy.
What is wrong wit this picture?
What I realized by now is that a truly devout Christian will pray and do whatever God "tells" him or her to do. It's forever "God's will" and "God's plan" and never yours. What free will is there? Perhaps some prayers get answered and some miracles happen because those people gave up their free will already.
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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
Stepping outside the role playing:I've actually spent some time reading back on the posts.
I believe in a different God that you people do. One that is more tangible and controlable. In my view the soul is to God/Goddess what the neuron is to the brain. Does that make any sense to you? We are a part of a larger whole. As a part we have responsibilities to that whole. They may be personal resposibilties or public. It depends on your outlook. In short, we are the Godness. We are part of the consciencenous of God. To envision the Mind of God means to look at your own life and the way you percieve things and to look at the society you live and consider the socities that you don't live in and join them together.
I think that people have turned away from being responcible and lay it upon the concept of God."God will destroy us all!" is the End Times thought. To be more realistic, "We will destroy ourselves."
If we are stupid enought to allow it.
I think there are some members of the human race pulling more of their share of the weight of such prophesy to make it not come true. Why? Because they realise their realitionship with God is Equality Between God and the Soul of Humans."God said kill this group and burn this city because I don't like them?"
Let us take a look back on the time of mankind when society was young and cilization wasn't so civil and the unifiying force between two individuals was what they believed spiritually, and what they believed to be true from those that mastered them.
It was in the best interest for a warlord of one group in order to lay seige upon another city-state, to persuade and rally a war spirit from the soldiers that were to kill and lose their lives for their people by stating that the absolute order came from the common worshiped diety. A God never issued such orders. Leaders did in the name of such gods to both raise warfare spirits and cement the cause.We, as part of God, allow evil acts because we desire a change that we may think will benefit us. I have noticed that out of every bad (or evil) action, goodness arises from that action. You would have to have vision through a drinking straw not to see that.
When I claim that I am God, I am not joking. I believe each of us is also God. We are a conscience part of the universe, and in that we have power through it. To realise that you are a part of a larger whole and are able to use power from that whole is a responsibilty I am learning to handle. I've tapped into something that I have learned is easy to abuse, and I have learned what abusing it can do.
To wrap thing up: Evil exists because humanity exists to realize the concept of evil. This topic could be called "Collective Conscience and the Problem of Instinctual Nature."
I don't think there is a problem.
[This message has been edited by Cargile (edited August 29, 1999).]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Ziyal:OK, the idea is that God is smarter than you, and has your best intrests at heart, so if you do what He tells you to, you're gonna end up alot happier than you would otherwise. You still have your free will, and the ability to defy God, and your choice is to forget that and still do what He says.
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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Cargile's notion actually reminds me slightly of the Minbari view of God (don't laugh). Or at least the universe.The universe in conscious, and to explore itself, it broke apart pieces of itself, forming these bits into different things. Delenn could probably explain it much more eloquently.
We are part of the universe (God) trying to explore everything that is possible, good and bad. Or something like that.
I agree with Tora about the free will thing. If you accept that bad things happen because God doesn't interfere, then you can't say that the good things are his responsibilty too. That's having your cake and eating it.
BTW, I thought that only God was addressed as He? I thought Jesus had small-case personal pronouns?
And finally, Omega; I know you take the Bible to be true in every respect. Could you accept the possibilty of mis-translations? Of errors occuring? And if not, if you say that God would make sure that the bible was always accurate, then how do you know which of the different translations to follow?
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"Ray...the next time someone asks you if you're a god you say 'Yes!'"
-Winston Zeddmore
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
Something else that piqued my attention was this:quote:So this means you choose to give up your free will and do what God says. Now if I'm not mistaken, that is the complete opposite of free will. Free will would be me going and doing whatever I wished, with or without the consent of God. That is free will, not negating it to do what God says regardless of how you feel.
You still have your free will, and the ability to defy God, and your choice is to forget that and still do what He says.------------------
"I see you have the ring. And that your Schwartz is as big as mine!
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Not to drag this out but I thought I'd add, from personal experience, that a large number of Biblical literalists believe that only the King James Version is divinely inspired, and that the others vary from blasphemy to satanic influence.------------------
"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
...which is odd, considering it's widely known thet the KJV was commissioned to be a poetical, rather than a literal translation.------------------
"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, Liam, a mistranslation doesn't constitute a mistake in the Bible, as I consider the Bible to be what was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. I'm sure there's an occasional spelling error in there, but nothing that could be reasonably construed to be a contradiction to the rest. And to know which translations to follow, you have to study outside sources, and know what can be mistranslated, or translated in various ways. My particular translation has footnotes that give other possible translations for various words, which I really like.1701:
It's still free will. It's still your choice to do whatever you want. It's just that you want to do what God says.
Sol:
I'd like to meet one of those. There arguments might be good for a laugh.
1of2:
I didn't know that. I don't use KJV much. I can hardly read it. I prefer NIV.
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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Proof that the New International Version is demonic in origin.Of course, I'm using a little hyperbole. I don't think they claim that it's demonic on that specific page.
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"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
If that weren't so sad, I'd be laughing.------------------
"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm sure Jack will be praying for us.------------------
"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing