Okay, the Problem of Evil goes like this:

"The existence of Evil is incompatable with the existence of a all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, always present benevolent Deity. Yet, evil exists. Therefore, said Deity cannot."

Let me show the basic points: We assume;

1. Evil exists.
2. Evil is incompatible with God.
3. God exists as described above.

The truth of the first is hardly disputable.
The truth of the second is claimed, at least by Christianity, who claim that God and the forces of Evil are engaged in a titanic struggle for Man's souls.
The truth of the third is held to be self-evident, by those same people.

The most common refutation to the above argument is "evil is man's own fault, his sins getting him back." However, this fails to explain evil that predated man, such as Satan and the Serpent. It also fails to cover "acts of God," and other natural disasters.

Another counter is "evil only happens to bad people." This, of course, we know to be untrue. Bad things happen to newborn, christened, baptized infants, and little children.

Another counter is "evil serves some beneficial purpose." (Or the "evil isn't really evil" theory.)This one is hard to counter, except with an incredulous look in the midst of great suffering, and the question "HOW?" This belief is a companion to the "everything happens for a reason" statement, which is basically a poor defense and an excuse for anarchy. As I myself replied to a minister who told be that, *TROD heavily on his foot* "Gee, that must have happened for a reason too..."
Another reaction to this argument is "if evil happens for a reason, why fight against it?"

Now, mostly, this argument, from my point of view anyway, deals with "unnecessary evil," or pointless suffering. That is, suffering from which much will be lost, and little will be gained, if anything. Deaths that have no meaning.

For instance, say you're Superdude. You look down as you're flying over Mega-city, chasing villains, and you see a small child about to be caught in the crossfire of a gang shootout. Now, with your super speed, invisibility, and mighty strength, you could easily zoom down, flick the bullet so that it JUST misses the child, and vanish back up to chase the villains at nearly the exact instant you left. You would never be seen, and absolutely NOONE would know you had ever been involved. Or at least not be able to prove it. You claim, in your role as Superdude, to be an invisible, omnipresent fighter for truth, justice, love, etc, etc, therefore you're obligated to your own press to live up to that.

And you let the kid get shot.

What does that make you?

Well, not a very good superhero, to say the least.

Now, you may say that to save the kid's life would be a violation of the "Free Will" clause in your superhero contract... but how does free will figure in to an accident? It doesn't. Free will only applies to a decision you make on your own. The kid didn't decide she was going to get shot today, it just happened. And it didn't need to. And nothing was gained from it, except her family's suffering and pain, a few blatherings from politicians and clergy who don't actually DO anything about it, and my wrath.
It's worse if you've already shown a willingness to violate the Free Will clause for certain people, causing "miracles," as it were. Why, Superdude, do you deny the rest of us? Even some of your biggest fans? Could it be because you only exist in the pages of your comic book?

Unless I've missed some issues, Superman's never deliberately destroyed entire cities and their whole populations, and when people commit crimes in Superman's name, he does everything possible to stop them.

Ok natural Distrasters well that falls under the Second rule, which is when the Universe was created God set up rules of how the Universe worked, from there God decided to abide by his own rules (unless something he decides that it is absolutely neccessary to defy them, what reason who that be well a reason that all knowing, power God thinks of). Ok lets say there is baseball game that a person prays to God to stop a ball that is falling foul so it goes fair, this brings up an interesting problem because if the ball starts to go fair then a person on the other team prays that it will go fair, so what is God to do. Simple let the ball fall on it's current course, the same logic can be appiled to wars, games of chance and even flame wars . So simply God doesn't screw with the laws of physics unless he has to.

Finally the logical method First of Two used to "prove" there is no God has one major flaw (can remember the name of the method but here an example of the flaw in action.

I have discoved the secret identity of God, which is Ray Charles.

Let me show the basic points: We assume;

1.) God is love,
2.) Love is blind
3.) Ray Charles is blind
Therefore Ray Charles is God .

The first is commonly assumed by most Christians (well at least that's the ideal . The second is assumed by most people that love is blind. The third is simple to prove Ray Charles is blind.

Finally I has to be hard being God, having all this power and all this love for everyone, but not being able to save everyone, but of course he has one last chance because people can join him in heaven, still he must feel sad every time someone is hurt and he doesn't do anything about it. I would never want to have that kind of responability.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )

I'm less concerned with what God actually does than I am with what people think he does. Case in point (I have actually heard something like this more than once): Someone gets cancer or incurable disease. Christian says: "oh, it's not God's fault. It happened for a reason humans cannot comprehend." Or something to that effect. After a while, the same person recovers "miraculously" from disease. Christian says: "It's a miracle from God! Praise the Lord God Almighty!"
If he can get away with all the bad things and get credit for all the good ones, I'd say he HAS to be perfect!

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"

White star, you just GOTTA learn to use smaller paragraphs. Or shorter sentences.

Anyway, evil occurs when harm is done. I'm not asking God to stop EVERYTHING that causes pain (that's a slippery-slope argument), just those things that cause needless suffering. Just fatal accidents. Just things that kill children. How hard can it be to find a way around that when you're Omniscient?

I mean, God says He protects His followers, but from all of what I've seen, (like that Tornado that blew through a church in Kansas and killed an elementary-school-aged choir girl) they have to already be dead (in which case their resurrected souls are supposed to be invulnerable anyway, so what's the point?) to be afforded this.

And I still can't see how you can have Free Will in a Universe wherein exists a being who, through omniscience, already knows every decision you're ever going to make, and the outcome. (which is the very DEFINITION of Omniscience = knows EVERYTHING past, present, and future included, unless you want to deny that God is omniscient, or redefine what "omniscient" means.)

Can you surprise an omniscient being? Can someone who KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that something MUST happen be justified in being angry when it does?

On the gripping hand, if everything happens for a reason, why can't we at least be told what that reason is? And why do so many events have to be negative rather than positive? Why can't the bullet MISS "for a reason?"
Why couldn't the car NOT have slid on ice "for a reason?" Why couldn't the bit of metal have bent 5 centimeters to the LEFT instead of the right "for a reason?" I mean, if there was some Greater Reason that I had to watch my Imzadi bleed to death, I'd sure like to know it, because the only lasting change it had on ME was I converted to "No Involved Deity"-ism. That and I'm a much darker person now.

I'd chalk that up as a loss for the Big Guy.

And now I've said too much, and made myself angry again.
Yes, I'm angry. But I'm angry for a lot more than one person who I happen to have known.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who would allow some of the things that happen to happen.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who would let a mother sell her own 3-year-old daughter to two perverts down the street for sex.
I'd rather believe in nothingness than a God who inflicts the SAME daughter with migraines, interstitial cystitis, cervical vertebrae that nearly cause her to lose her arms, and then allows her to be raped while she's in college.

FOR NO GOOD REASON.

If this be treason... I will make the most of it.

If there is a God, I want some concrete answers from Him. Soon. Just so I know whose side to be on when the Last Battle comes.

Now you know why I'm the nicest "of the damned."

*exits ranting mode*
breathe...breathe...
'S okay, I'm all better now. Inner Demon exorcism over. Standing down from Red Alert.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"

First of Two said "Can you surprise an omniscient being? Can someone who KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that something MUST happen be justified in being angry when it does?"

Well, no you can't surprise and Omiiscient being, but anger is different story. For example if you have a friend dying of Cancer and after much suffering he dies, well you knew he would die, true and you were already sad. So the day he dies are you not sad, of course you are sad, even though you knew he would die soon. If God created us in his image and likeness then God has emotions as well as logic, so people think God is all logic, he isn't, he more like us than we think, he gets angry, sad, happy, and depressed. So he knows everything, so what, he has all the power in the Universe, but he has limited himself by rules that he will not break (unless he has a good reason).

Also God protects and watchs over all his creatations, humans, birds, etc, etc. Not just his followers. Does he always protect people from physical harm, No.

First I grieve for your lose of your Beloved, but don't blame God, it was his natural system that killed her not God. I know that is absolutely no comfort to you, So I will give a prayer to the soul of your Beloved. I will also pray for you that can forgive God for his actions.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )

Only God can KNOW what MUST happen, due to His omniscience. He knows, by definition, that things CANNOT be any other way. (In other words, an omniscient God KNEW the snake was in Eden, KNEW it would tempt Eve, KNEW she would eat the apple, KNEW she would get Adam to as well, ALL IN ADVANCE!) This, of course, would mean that the punishment afterwards was a sham. That Eden was a set-up.

In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down.
"Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*

As for the rest of my post... sorry. Perhaps I let it get WAY too personal.. but dealing with these questions IS a VERY personal thing, don't you think?

It's interesting that you say you hope _I_ can forgive _God._ Sounds like something out of Anne Rice's "Memnoch the Devil:" (The real key to getting into Heaven isn't God being able to forgive you, It's YOU being able to forgive HIM.)

Let's see, thus far I've charged Him with neglect, hypocracy, conspiracy, entrapment, and murder.
Yeah, I'm goin' to Hell.

The first point is correct God knows everything so he knows how stuff will happen not must happen, there always more than one option. The stuff about Eden is true to. So what's the problem, well Free Will (I have said that a lot) means than God has to let us to decide for ourselves, otherwise we would be mindless drones. Either free Will or mindless drones there really nothing in between. Eden wasn't a set up Eden was when God gave us an option, and Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, if God stopped them, no free will.

First said "In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down. "Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*"

Actually in the so called "Just" Universe, Superdude would have never forbidden Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, because without being forbidden there is no sin (however they would still have the knowledge of good and evil). However in the Real Universe God forbid them to eat the fruit, which is actually loving, since he didn't want them to know there was good and bad, to believe there is only good, which is like a parent trying to shield a child from all the bad in the world. Anyway the temptation didn't come from the Snake just the devil itself, the snake is a symbol of the Devil's tempting, it would happened anyway. Sure God could have stopped the Snake from tempting, but like a parent instead holding on to there child the let the child try to walk, knowing they could (and likely will fall). Why because they want there child to grow up. We fell, I know God didn't like that, but after the fall he didn't just waive his hand and make it go away (since he's all powerful he could do that), but he let us grow up to be like adults and he loses some along the way. I really can't defend what God does or does do. What I do know is he has plan for everyone, whether we follow the plan is another story.

Frankly, I have no idea why God does what he does and allows the Universe to happen, I wouldn't what to know why. Now I have my Own problems to worry about which is loving God. I didn't know why I believed, but wasn't really religious and really didn't love anyone. Until I was told in blunt terms that I didn't love myself. The funny thing is it is comply true, I don't love myself or anyone else. O well those are small problems compared to yours First.

First I have one question for you, do you in any way blame yourself for your beloved's death. Before you explode on me, I mean in any way, like saying "I could have done something" or "I could have done more" (or something like that). Think about it for a while and search your heart. If you do blame yourself forgive yourself I am sure the person you loved didn't what you to carry all this pain around. Ok you can explode on me now. Sorry for the dime store psycology, now I going to get flamed now and ever more.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )

You don't see the point. Knowing everything means knowing EVERYTHING. If God exists and is omniscient, he knows not only what will happen, but he knows all the options open to every individual, and knows in advance which ones that individual WILL choose. (in other words, what MUST happen.) This negates free will. The contradiction is unavoidable when you claim something is omniscient. God knew what choices would be made in Eden, and how they would be made. And even who would eat the first bite of "apple," and how it would taste, and how many steps Eve would take before she got to Adam, and exactly what the Serpent would say, and when he'd breathe during his Serpentspeech. ALL of it, if He's Omniscient.

First said "In a Just universe, Superdude would have looked down. "Hmm. Snake in the garden. Nasty little bugger. Can't have that, the Tree of Knowledge is tempting enough on its own." *Zaps Snake to cinders*"
"However in the Real Universe God forbid them to eat the fruit, which is actually loving, since he didn't want them to know there was good and bad, to believe there is only good, which is like a parent trying to shield a child from all the bad in the world."

Which often turns out to do more harm than good. What you're advocating above is, essentially, deception on the part of God.

"Anyway the temptation didn't come from the Snake just the devil itself, the snake is a symbol of the Devil's tempting, it would happened anyway."

Not if the Devil had been destroyed. How hard would that be? *Zaap!* gone.

(Unless you're saying Good can't exist without Evil, in which case Eden couldn't have existed before the Fall... and it also begs the question "How did God, who is all good, exist before the creation of the Devil?")

"Sure God could have stopped the Snake from tempting, but like a parent instead holding on to there child the let the child try to walk, knowing they could (and likely will fall). Why because they want there child to grow up. We fell, I know God didn't like that, but after the fall he didn't just waive his hand and make it go away (since he's all powerful he could do that), but he let us grow up to be like adults and he loses some along the way."

Yes, but what parent spanks the child for falling down? What parent gets ANGRY because his child walked on his own? This analogy falls apart at a touch.

"First I have one question for you, do you in any way blame yourself for your beloved's death. Before you explode on me, I mean in any way, like saying "I could have done something" or "I could have done more" (or something like that). "

Used to, back during the earliest days of the trauma. Not anymore. No real point. Since I am not omnipotent or omniscient, there's no way _I_ could have forseen, prevented, or counteracted what happened. No, I don't blame myself. I don't blame her. I don't blame the ice, and I don't blame the metal.

I blame God for pulling his Londo Mollari impersonation. (this observation will only make sense to those of you who saw the 5th season Babylon 5 episode "The very long night of Londo Mollari." In this episode, I see myself as G'Kar and God as Londo. OR, I would LIKE to see that played out, I should say.)

How can something be "good" without "bad"? Since these two are polar opposites, one cannot be defined without the presence of the other. If someone never knew evil, all the "good" around him/her cannot be called "good" because there's nothing to compare it to. Another example: hot and cold. If temperature was always constant, there can be no comparison of low or high temperatures using "hot" and "cold". Therefore, in order for God to be called "good", evil has to exist.

One side note that has practically nothing to do with this, but I'd just like to mention. Genesis says that both Adam and Eve fell to temptation. BUT, while it took SATAN HIMSELF to tempt Eve, it only took Eve to tempt Adam.

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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".