Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Here is what I have learned so far.

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Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I am taking a Bio 100 class here at Asbury College ( http://www.asbury.edu ) We are reading a book called Science in Biology and here is what I have found out in the first ten or so pages. These are just some quotes that have meanbing to what is being discussed here.

"A set of ideas that can not, in principle, be falsified is not science" Science is proving things false, not proving them right. Religion is not science because it can not be falsified. Evolution is a theory that has not yet been proven false, yet is accepted due to life time of the theory and it's impossiblity to prove it true or false.
"Science only deals with the known natural universe." Religion is supernatural!

There are passages in both the OT and NT that say God does not see time the same way we do. He has a plan and it's on schedule. When God said to Moses "7 days" it's no teeling how long or short he meant. If He tells me "Bryce, I'll take care of this shortly" It could be a month or more.

Something I learned in Western Civ is that orginally religion promoted science and the arts. Trying to find our gods moved us to look at our would. I now see the bigger problem as man putting science and the arts ahead of religion.

Well, I need to do my OT 110 reading assignment, now.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

*chuckles*

"Religion cannot be falsified"? Then how can you explain the hundreds of varieties of religions out there? Can they ALL be right?

"Science deals with the natural, religion deals with the supernatural."

Well, at least we can show empirical evidence that the natural even exists. Show me a supernatural being.

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I can't show you a supernatural being, that is why science doesn't deal with the supernatural.

Yes. Any religion could be right, but we have the chioce to decide which one is right.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

You're becoming more liberal.. better watch out.

I don't think the traditional Christian viewpoint is that WE get to decide which religion is right. I think that that's supposed to have been figured out by the Big Guy, and those of us who choose wrong are zapped later on.

Therefore, only one path is true (what is that quote, "the way is straight, but the path is narrow," or something?) and the rest have been falsified.

Of course you can't show a supernatural being. Neither can you hear it, smell it, taste it, touch it, or observe or measure its effects with anything approaching reliability or consistency. It's essentially not there. Which is just as good as saying that it's REALLY not there.

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 26, 1999).]

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I think the title of this book is very telling. . . I mean, The SCIENCE of Biology?! As opposed to what? The Trepanning of Biology? I mean, what next? Chemistry Not Involving Phlogiston? Geography of Round Worlds?

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

The traditional Christian viewpoint is that God has given us free will to do as we choose. He did not want puppets for children.

I am becoming better educated, not liberal. I always knew I needed to learn more now I am.

Lee: You got the title wrong.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I think there is a difference between wrong and not being right.

But religion can't be proven true or false, because it doesn't work that way. Religions can be right or wrong, but not true or false...True and false is where science dwells...religion deals with right and wrong.

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"I will remember you...Will you remember me?
Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..."
Sarah McLachlan

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

but those of us who don't choose the path we're supposed to DO get zapped later on.. or has Christian thought on this subject changed radically since the last time I checked?

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

"Yes. Any religion could be right, but we have the chioce to decide which one is right."

Actually, I thought that WAS liberal of you to say that. Long ago, before my mom took me to church and stuff, I distinctly remember reading some Christianity FAQ. I don't remember where, what language (I can read Chinese), or what age I read it, but there's one question and answer that stuck in my mind. It asked, "Does Christianity accept the existence of other religions?" Well, being the tolerant person that I was, I thought, yes, any good, logical religion can coexist with others, right? And the answer said, "No, Christianity is the one true religion, and all others are false." That REALLY turned me off. It still does.

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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".

Posted by JEM on :

Tora, since religion requires that it be taken on faith it cannot be regarded as logical. The reason I try to avoid debates on this matter is that it is ultimately impossible to logically prove or disprove the existance of God as Jeff pointed out. Whatever conclusion you might come to, I can think of no way of definatively testing that conclusion either for or against (anyone got any ideas?).

As for tolerance no religion can possibly be tolerant of any other. Consider this scenario; I believe that god 'A' is the one and only true god who created the universe. The people/tribe/group etc. next door believe that god 'B' helped by gods 'C', 'D' and 'E' did the creating stuff and live high up in the mountains. By definition I can't be tolerant of their beliefs. If I do then I must have doubts about my own religion and thus am not a true believer. If I don't doubt my own religion then I must know absolutely that they are wrong. Since they are wrong and are all going to suffer come judgement day then I should go over and convert them (using force if necessary-maybe a few burnings might be in order) but you must understand I'm only doing this for their own good. Naturally my neighbours are thinking exactly the same. Not hard to realise why religion has been responsible for more misery in human history than anything else. On the other hand I might decide to live and let live. Let the 'heathens' do things their own way while I'm safe in the absolute certainty that there's a place reserved for me in the afterlife. I suspect that this is the degree of 'tolerance' that exists at the moment.

The FAQ you quoted can't possibly say anything else but; "...Christianity is the one true religion, and all others are false.". You can replace 'Christianity' with any other religion of your choice and the statement is equally valid.

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Cogito Ergo Sum (I think, therefore I am not a politician) - Rene Descartes

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I never said I believed any other religion was right, I just said it was possible.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I still find it funny, that Jesus' message was about tolerance and love, and yet many Christians say they shouldn't tolerate other religions, or gays, or anyone who disagrees with them.

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"I will remember you...Will you remember me?
Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..."
Sarah McLachlan

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

The only people who are free of the above vicious circle are those who decide there's no god/s or afterlife to be concerned with. Since there are no souls to save, the non-believers aren't concerned about converting their neighbors, and are free to ignore their gibbering, except for worrying about how long it'll be before their neighbors, in their zeal, attempt to convert them forcibly. Plus, they're able to focus their attentions on the here-and-now, and the future of their people, instead of expecting imminent annihilation from Above.

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

First of Two, how I disagree with you on much that you said there... My beliefs don't necessarily follow the 'traditional' Christian, I still believe in God, and that anyone who can follow Jesus' message is allowed in Heaven.
But before I go too far into my beliefs, I leave you with this.

"It doesn't matter if you don't believe in God...God believes in you."

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"I will remember you...Will you remember me?
Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..."
Sarah McLachlan

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

It doesn't matter if you don't believe in Santa Claus... Santa Claus believes in you.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe in the Tooth Fairy... the Tooth Fairy believes in you.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe in Snuffleuppagus... Snuffleuppagus believes in you.

Each of the above statements are equally valid to yours, in the eyes of somebody who doesn't believe in the first place. Not particularly a strong point, is it?

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

From your point of view... But anyways, I'm done. you can be just as stubborn as the christians you insist on fighting.

Good luck First of Two...

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"I will remember you...Will you remember me?
Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..."
Sarah McLachlan

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

There was once a short verse written my a man whose name escapes me, shortly after WWII, as I recall, and it went a bit like this:

"First they came for the homosexuals, and I did not stand up because I was not a homosexual.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not stand up because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not stand up because I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me."

So I stand.

Admittedly, you seem to have learned the lesson that most cannot, and have the ability to say "I might be wrong," if not the full truth, which is "I don't know." Too many have not, though, for it to be safe, just yet. And by stating that you believe in such a way, to too many others you are committing heresy, if not blasphemy.

I don't say what I say because I'm looking for conflict.. although that's an added benefit when you consider much progress can be made through conflict.
I say what I say to puncture the balloons of the folks who think their religious value system is infallible.
Why? No more Theocracies. No more Inquisitions. No more witchhunts. Never Again.

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

What y'all (there's a word I bet nobody here's ever seen in print before) are confusing is the difference between tolerance and apathy. The reason we send missionaries is so we can teach people what we believe. If they don't listen, we don't force them to convert or kill them or anything like that, we just let them live as they like. Tolerance doesn't mean that we can't teach people that we believe that they're wrong, it means that we can't persecute someone BECAUSE we believe they're wrong.

And of course we might be wrong, and we don't know. We BELIEVE we're right. The same applies to you. Reminds me of that book mentioned in the Hitch-Hikers Trilogy, "That About Wraps it Up for God".

Our religion may not be infallible, but it's either inspired, or it's got a lot more coincidences in it's favor than any other I know of, whereas your religion (and athesim is a religion) relies on more coincidences than I can count. Our source for guidance was written by two dozen people over several millenia, with no contradictions, and cross-references throughout. The probibility of that happening by chance is essentially nil.

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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

"The probibility of that happening by chance is essentially nil."

Perhaps that happened because they rejected all the books with contradictions in them. The Catholics chose what books you're reading in that Bible, after all.

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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

By definition, atheism cannot possibly be a religion. A meaning none. Theism meaning, in general terms, religion.

Now, you can certainly find atheists who have a zealous devotion towards their beliefs, and such zealotry does cause them to resemble religious zealots.

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"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

No...Luther, Calvin and others did. Luther wanted to get rid of the Aphropha (sp.) and the book of James. We later kept the book of James.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

It's Apocrypha.

But there were more than that. When the Bible was first codified, that is, put into a form that would be generally recognizable to someone today, it was around 300 AD. Of course, there have been changes since then, as well, but mostly we're talking about the oldest times. Upwards of sixty gospels, including those of Mary, Thomas, and James, were discarded, and the 'canon' reduced to the four in the current Bible. The decision was made not to include Quabbala, and other books.

Why? Politics. The Powers That Were decided they wanted a Bible which closely agreed with what THEY wanted to put forth (remember, the early church was an EXTREMELY fractured and factious group, with a dozen or so different interpretations of everything from Jesus's life and death, to what He said.

What you read today is the politically sanitized version of the originals, written by the folks who won the power struggles by wiping out all opposition.

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

Not exactly.

I thought I would add more!

Through the years we (protestants) have excluded all texts that are almost totally legalistic from the Bible.

We do this because one of Jesus' main beefs with the Jews was their legalism (Pharisees, Saducees, ect.) Since He preached against this we have tried to exclude Biblical era books that are largely legalistic.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited August 29, 1999).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You can define religion as a belief pertaining to the supernatural. Athesim is the belief that there is no supernatural. It's still a belief pertaining to the supernatural.

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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

*sigh*

Disbelief in one thing does not constitute belief in another.

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"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :

I find myself siding with Bryce on this one.

Anyone ever hear of the Holographic Theory? It is the only theory that I have come across that both solidifies my growing belief system and unifies science and religion.

Under such theory, all religions are possible. Reality is pliable. Belief is power and truth. Everything is personal.

If I were a God and knew that only one belief system was neccesary for the development of humanity, then I would not bother to allow other systems to permeat. Differing views on life are needed to aid the development of humanity as it grows. All religions are correct in their tenants, no matter how opposite they may be to another religion. The concept of "there can only be one True religion" fails under the observation that there are a diversity of religions to embrace. The only belief system that doesn't fail is the one that recognizes this truth and allows it--the Holographic Theory.
As humans we like to impose control and rules on our dieties. God can only do this or that. And when we limit ourselves to such a metric, we blind ourselves to a fullfilment that openmindedness can only give.

I myself am on a spiritual journey. My soul is damned and I seek salvation. I know what must be done for this salvation. I'm still rebellious and will look for another option. In the end I feel surrender is the ultimate option. I'm not too fond of surrender.

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"I came upon a wedding, good old families had contribed.
Bethlaham the bride-groom, Babylon the bride.
Great Babylon was naked, ah she stood there trembling for me.
And Bethlaham enflamed us both, like a shy one at some orgy.
And when we fell together, all our flesh was like a veil.
But I had to draw aside to see the serpent eat its tail.
Some women wait for Jesus, and some women wait for Cain.
So I hang upon my alter, and I hoist my axe again.
And I take the one that finds me back to where it all began.
When Jesus was the honeymoon, and Cain was just a man.
And we read from pleasant Bibles, that are bound in blood and skin,
But the wilderness is gathering all its children back again."
excerpt from the song "Last Year's Man"
By Leonard Cohen.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but does that mean that what you believe defines your personal universe? Sounds like we're all trapped in static warp shells, guys. : )

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"Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my
breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox,
`The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

That's what Kant and Hegel say, anyway.

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"Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from."
--
Soul Coughing

Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :

We are not trapped. Although we can trap ourselves off. Seclude ourselves from the rest of humanity. We exist in a realm of parallel worlds, the gateway between each being the proximity, introduction, or rapport of another individual. Our Gods define ourselves.