'...I always thought that was one thing that the bible is crystal clear on, that homosexuals are evil people who have cold black hearts which pump not blood like
yours or mine, but rather a thick, vomitous oil that oozes through their rotten veins and clots in their pea-sized brains which becomes the cause of their Nazi-esque patterns of violent behavior...'

You'd better hope God doesn't mind being misquoted, Liam.

'I've got a friend that knows that book that the quote about homsexuality being evil and all that is in, but he's not answering the phone right now.'

Several books contain statements about homosexuality being wrong, but the one you're probably thinking of is I Corinthians 6:9.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Niether the sexually immoral nor idolaters not adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers that will inherit the kingdom of God."

This is what is usually used by people saying that the Bible is contradictory because it says that we should love everyone, but that homosexuals are evil, and they're going to Hell, etc, etc...

But this is taken out of context. Vs. 11 says:

"And that is what some of your were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

'Anyway Jesus said basically was about forgiving people and including them into the fold, not excluding them.'

Now there I think you're confusing forgiveness of past sins with the acceptance of present sins, H.M.S. If the Catholic church truly believes what Christ said, then it CAN NOT accept active homosexuality. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible aslo says that if you know a member of the Church is sinning, you should go talk to him. If he doesn't listen, go get a couple of friends and try again. If he still doesn't listen, tell the elders and let them talk to him. If he still doesn't listen, then he should be disfellowshiped (excommunicated). 1 Cor. 5:13: "Expel the wicked man from among you." You don't accept the sin. Rom. 6:2: "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

'Here's a secret about the Catholic Church that might help you understand it, just because the bible says it
doesn't mean we follow it.'

This is my main quarrel with the Catholic church. They'd rather follow their own traditions than the teachings of Christ. It's all about appearance and tradition, not the spirit of the teachings. Sounds rather like the Jews of Christ's time.

That's all from me for now. Feel free to open fire.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

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"The next time the workplace seems especially hectic, remind yourself it could be worse: you could have two-dozen sharp-toothed creatures chewing on your nipples." - James Lileks

 

Anyway the reason that the Catholic Church ignores some of the bible is that there are some annoying parts. Like the Dietiary codes in the OT. Or the fact we shouldn't walk more 1/2 miles on the Sabbath. Or the Fact the Sabbath is actually on Sunday instead of the Saturday like it should be (Jesus practiced the Sabbath on Saturday, not Sunday, so who's not following his teachings:-)). Because if you don't say you can't ignore parts of the bible, then you just ignore parts you don't like (ever here a teaching from the psalm of Solomen, I bet you haven't).

Anyway what the Catholic Church allows homosexuals as long as they follow the universal teachings for unmarried folks which is no sex outside of marriage.

Finally if I recall the Jews of that time there was a bunch of factions (like the Zealots jesus didn't completely approve of them, Pharsiees; he certainly didn't approve of them, Saracees (sp) ditto to above)
Of course the Zealot were as about as different as the Pharsiees as you could get and Jesus disapproved of both.

And finally I agree with the First One, as long as the rule is universal, that you can't hide behind racism sexism, or any bad ism behind anything, including race, color, religion, blab, blab.

Finally I hope no one thinks I have ever insulted anyone for what they pratice (unless they collect Beanie Babies, that just crosses the line), I don't insult anyone I don't know personally (of course if I do know them I harass them contantly but it always about silly stuff, and I ask them if it's ok every once in while to see if it is borthering them).

Omega I don't think Catholic should excommunicate more people, Catholics get in enough trouble already .

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited September 24, 1999).]
 

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Matt.6:5-6.

See? It's not the homosexuals who should be in the closet, it's the Christians!

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

 

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

I have a right to express my opinion on any subject I want on these forums, last time I checked. I posted it in the Flameboard and not elsewhere because I knew it would cause an argument. And how do you define bigotry? I don't discriminate based on things people can't help (gender, race, physical disorders, etc.). Homosexuality IS under consious control, however, no matter how many people say it's genetic. That's just people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.

H.M.S.:

Well, first, all those examples you gave were laws given to the Hebrews by God in the Old Testament. When Christ died, the old covenant was over, and a new one was enacted. The old law no longer holds.

And again, there is a big difference between racisim and sexism and discrimination against homosexuality. The former are simply genetic, while the latter is consious decision.

1of2:

"See? It's not the homosexuals who should be in the closet, it's the Christians!"

It's not the actions Jesus was critisizing. It was the intent. The Pharasees just wanted the attention of men, for the sole purpose of being recognized. The reason Christians want to be recognized is to set a good example.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

BTW, just to clear up, my line about evil black hearts was from South Park, m'kay?

And reposted fromt he other thread...

Thanks for letting me onto your little catholic secret. I am now going to upset your apple-cart and say that I already am Catholic, and have been for two decades.
*smug grin*

Well, not really. I prefer 'Christian' now.

But one thing our R.E. teacher admitted was that the bible was absolutly crystal clear on homosexuality. Not some metephour, or anything like that. Not 'consider the lillies of the field', the bible states that homosexuality is a very evil deed.

He didn't agree, and neither did we, but as proper catholics we must treat homosexuals as evil snake worshippers.

And not have before marriage sex. Or use contraception.

*ahem*

And that happens...

Well, I can dream...

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."

-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

 

"...if you follow the word of God as laid down in the bible, then Catholics are evil."

Not evil. Just wrong. You don't have to treat them as "evil snake-worshipers". You just don't allow them to infulence you, and do your best to convince them that homosexuality is wrong.

"...my line about evil black hearts was from South Park, m'kay?"

Ah. That would explain why I didn't recognize it. Sorry.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

Sexual preference is a conscious decision? Of course! How obvious. In fact, I'd like to take this moment to make a very important announcment.

I have decided to be attracted to women. It was a pretty easy decision, really. Women smell nicer and curve in all the right places.

Madness, you say? Well, yes. I can no more choose who I wish to be attracted to then I can choose the color of my skin. And I wish I could. Being able to pick who I want to fall in love with would clear up a lot of things. But it isn't going to happen.

Oh, and I'd like to know which version of the Bible everyone is quoting from. Most every church I've been to accepts only a select few.

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

To Omega I have to disagree with on homosexuality, it certainly genetic or has something to do with brain Chemistry. The reason I am attracted to the opposite sex is genetic so why wouldn't it be the same thing in a homosexual? They really can't help it if they like they are attracted to the same sex, can they. Anyway like I said the you can be homosexual and be Catholic and be in good standing as long as you follow the rules for unmarried folks in the Church. For example, Catholics have a Believe that they actually consumer the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eurarist (sp) (basically it's a recreation of the last Supper, which was intended to be recreated, yet not all churchs do that). Anyway I understand you think Catholics are wrong, otherwise you would be Catholic, Right .
Finally Liam said that Catholic had to treat homosexuals as snake worshippers (btw do you know exactly how Catholic treat snake worshippers well there supposed to treat them with respect) not that Christians treat Catholics like snake worshippers.

To Liam: *shakes his head* Of course it not a secret, duh, except not everyone relises that the Catholic Churchs doesn't do everything that the bible says. Well I talked to many religion about this (lets see there the 3 nuns I was taught by, 1 priest and one person with Masters in Theology) and no body said that Homosexuals were evil, or that we had to be unkind to them. What we where taught is to be compassionate, loving and caring about people and to love the sinner and hate the sin. Honestly I don't agree with the contraception thing and mistakes happen but we can be forgiven if we ask.

to Sol: *nods his head* correct sir. Btw in the rare event that I do quote from a Bible (which is extremely rare) I think it's from the New American Edition, but I could be wrong (shows you the last time I read it).

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

As to the rest? Why argue about it?????

As for Catholics, I can't speak for them not being one and having been in a Catholic church once for a wedding (I kept wondering when I was supposed to kneel and when to say something out loud ) I have other problems with the Catholic doctrine...but I'll save those for another thread.

At any rate the purpose...there are Fundamentalist churches and ministers out there that are much more virulent about the "dread" homo-sex-ual.

So, let lock arms, gather in a group hug...shall we? And no one had better be pinching my butt.

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I took in a movie. An appalling little piece of filth. Its leading lady was a blonde harlot who spent half the film strolling around naked as a jaybird! No, just give the Great Unwashed a pair of oversized breasts and a happy ending, and they'll oink for more every time.
~C. Mongomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited September 25, 1999).]
 

I think we're using two different definitions of homosexuality here. If you're attracted to members of the same sex, but don't act on that attraction in any way, I would not consider that to be homosexual. Actually, I think you CAN override your genes, and create new attractions or repulsions. Your genes determine how your brain forms to begin with, but afterwards, they have very little effect on your personality. I think everyone has a base personality, which is how a person would react in a given situation without consious thought. This base personality is originally formed by genetics, but then overwriten by environment if the force is strong enough in a certain area. Given enough consious thought, you can overwrite your base personality on purpose, so that eventually you can act a certain way without thinking about it, or without even noticing.

And I'm quoting from NIV.

H.M.S.:

Same deal as above.

Eucharest, I believe.

"Finally Liam said that Catholic had to treat homosexuals as snake worshippers, not that Christians treat Catholics like snake worshippers."

Sorry. That's what I was responding to. I just grabbed the wrong quote.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

But why, if a person is created in some way, is that way "evil"? Seems like an extremely cruel joke to play.

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

BTW, Omega... You have no such rights here, read the user agreement again.

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Avon: "You really do believe in taking risks, don't you?"
Tarrant: "Calculated risks."
Avon: "Calculated on what? Your fingers?"
-- Blake's Seven, Ultraworld
 

My friends at school who are Catholic have accepted the fact that I'm gay, so I don't think that it's wrong anymore. Besides, I could care less what anyone says at this point, I like guys and that will not stop me from dating them, loving them, and definately no one can stop me from having sex with them.

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"All you people, can't you see, can't you see
How your love's affecting our reality
Everytime we're down
You can make it right
And that makes you larger than life"

-Backstreet Boys
 

#1 "If a man is attracted to other men, dut doesn't act on it, he's not "really" homosexual"
er..
If someone male is attracted to women, but doesn't act on those urges, is he still heterosexual?

Damned straight. He's just celibate.
Whether or not you choose to have sex has no bearing on your orientation.

#2 "Homosexuality is a choice."

Oh, this could be shot up in so many ways, from the really great likelihood that someone would "choose" of their own free will to feel in ways that would get them treated so horribly by their fellow humans, to the high probability that much of it IS genetically determined, to.. oh, I forget.

However, on the basis that it's all right to discriminate against people on the basis of the "lifestyle choices" they make, I hereby propose that "religion" be removed from ALL nondiscrimination clauses. Because, as everyone knows, your religion is ALSO a "lifestyle choice."

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

 

quote:

---

Your genes determine how your brain forms to begin with, but afterwards, they have very little effect on your personality.

---

I'm going to take this oportunity to echo what Lee's been saying - don't hide behind church policies and dogma to defend your feelings. Justify them without quoting the bible or from any other religous item.
Can't do it? Good. Then this thread will die very quickly.

*watches closely*

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Avon: "You really do believe in taking risks, don't you?"
Tarrant: "Calculated risks."
Avon: "Calculated on what? Your fingers?"
-- Blake's Seven, Ultraworld

[This message has been edited by Charles Capps (edited September 25, 1999).]
 

Btw the previous confession isn't to say I better than anyone else, or to say it's even by choice, I just really have never had a girlfriend and the option of sex has really never come up. And I am 20, not 12.

To the First One: I don't really think Omega is wanting to surpress homosexual's, I thought we were discussing homosexuality and how the Catholic Church deals with it. You seem to be overreacting little, I haven't seem him say anything about oppressing homosexual people or anything negative (unless there is a post I missed).

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

*applauds Michael_T*

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�T� eres que lo como!
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Yes, I routinely run any car with Canadian plates off the road. It makes it easier to yank them out, blind them, and put them to work in my underground salt mine." - Simon Sizer
 

"But why, if a person is created in some way, is that way "evil"? Seems like an extremely cruel joke to play."

Again, there's a difference between being attracted to people of the same sex and actaully acting on that attraction.

Charles:

"BTW, Omega... You have no such rights here, read the user agreement again."

Well, I haven't posted "any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of aperson's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law", nor any cpoyrighted material. I am well aware that you can eliminate my post and ban me on a whim if you so choose, if that's what you're getting at.

Michael_T:

"So let me get this straight, me and my fellow gay people can easily override our urges???"

Maybe not easily, but you can, given enough desire to do so.

Feste:

"Omega - I'm deeply disappointed you didn't use that witty line about Adam and Steve."

Sorry. Never heard it.

First:

"You are advocating the repression of a social group based on your own twisted religious beliefs."

Hang on just a minute! When have I advocated REPRESSION of any social group? I simply stated that the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong, and that homosexuality is irreconsilable with the teachings of Christ.

1of2:

Point taken. Let me change my example a bit. The Bible's exact words were "Homosexual offenders". That would seem to imply that the attraction itself is not wrong, and thus by your definition, homosexuality isn't nesecarily wrong, as long as it is not acted on (assuming the Bible is correct, of course).

So thus it would become "Homosexual ACTIVITY is a choice".

"I hereby propose that "religion" be removed from ALL nondiscrimination clauses."

I would make a counterproposal: That all nondiscrimination laws be delcared unconstitutional, and thus removed from the lawbooks! Discrimination for a government job should not be allowed, because that would violate the first ammendment, but in the private sector, the government has no business telling you who you have to hire. And, yes, I would still say that if my religion was widely discriminated against.

Charles (second post):

That's because things of that nature were genetically predetermined, and were never overwriten. Try bringing up one in a strictly puritanical family, and teach him that, say, drinking is wrong, and teach it quite thoroughly. Then bring the other up in a family where both parents drink. Bring them back together in a bar and guess what the results will be. Original sexual preference is genetic, but can be changed through environment and personal effort.

"...don't hide behind church policies and dogma to defend your feelings. Justify them without quoting the Bible or from any other religous item."

Well, considering that this thread is about the incompatibilities of Christian beliefs and homosexuality, quotes from the Bible are quite relevant.

H.M.S.:

Again, thanks for the defence.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

Basically, Catholics accept homosexuals as people, but they can't marry (other homosexuals). And since premarital sex isn't allowed either way, homosexuals can't have sex at all (assuming they don't break the rule). Omega insists that a homosexual isn't homosexual if he/she does not have sex. Is that not the same as the Catholic rule I described above? Catholics may still call them homosexuals, but you believe the exact same thing they do.

The thing about Catholics: there are radical, conservative, and centralist Catholics, and conservatives might tell you that homosexuals are evil while radicals accept them. I was taught in school that they're accepted, and I'm betting that's the official word.

I haven't asked my Lutheran friend yet, but I *think* she told me that the homosexual relationships are recognized/acknowledged/accepted. I guess I just sort of assumed they're allowed to have sex.

I would just like to say now that these religious debates have made me despise Christianity. I may yet find a church that accepts homosexuals and Evolution, but I DON'T CARE anymore. I still believe in God, or a god, but I'm staying away from Christianity and the Bible. Let me just say this: IF there were no contradictions and contraversies in the Bible, people would not be able to debate on it. I may still support Catholicism from time to time, but only because Protestants tend to twist it into something else.

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"I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God."
--Q to Picard, "Tapestry".

To Charles: Cool point, however I have a story how environment can shape a person. Ok there were two identical twin brothers separated at birth. When they were finally reunited they discovered that they had a lot of the same characteristics (like what Charles mentioned) however there was one big difference. One of the brothers was Jew, the other was a member of the Nazis Party, a guy who hated jews (btw this a true story) so what does that have to do with the current topic not much, but I always loving to annoy the folks who use twinning [that is the technical term for the behavior Charles disscribed] as support of the genetics as the major influnce).

Since this is a discussion on the Catholic Church and there view on homosexuality then the Scriptures are relvant, of course hiding behind them isn't really kosher either, however I really haven't people doing that.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

*ring, ring* "Hello? Who's there?"
"Dead horse. STOP BEATING ME!"

'nuff said.

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"Sully, for Shame! And don't be foolish! What are we trying to practice every day? If our friendship depends on things like space and time, then when we finally overcome space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see eachother once or twice?"
- Jonathan Livingston Seagull
 

If you'll check my last post, I believe you'll find that I have stated that my previous definition of homosexuality WAS incorrect. Homosexuality (being attracted to people of the same sex) is not in itself wrong. ACTING on that attraction is wrong. (All assuming you believe the Bible, of course.)

"I was taught in school that they're accepted, and I'm
betting that's the official word."

Ah, so the pope has the authority to override Christ, now, does he?

"IF there were no contradictions and contraversies in the Bible, people would not be able to debate on it."

Sure, they would. As I'm sure you all think of me, if someone believes something strongly enough, no evidence in the world can convince them otherwise. You all keep saying that there are contradictions in the Bible, but you have yet to point out ONE that can't be attributed to spelling, copying, or translation error. And contraversies are not in the Bible. They're over men's opinions ABOUT the Bible, which is something completely different.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

HMS, nice point about the twin-genetics thing. Of course, you're using one example, against the large number of cases that support the personality-genetics thing.

If I remember, different aspects of personality are affected to varying degrees by genetics. Something like intelligence tends to be very genetic dominated, whereas sense of humour is more situation created. Apparently.

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."

-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

Also I used the Twinning example because it was the best on that popped into my head (and you have to admit it's a dramatic example of what environment can do to a person) and actually the two brothers had a lot of the same characteritics except that one thing.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

Oh, and I didn't say the Catholic Church didn't believe in Evolution, but they don't accept homosexuality completely. I was just too lazy to explain what I meant by a church that accepted both Evolution and homosexuality.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a Protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

--James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
 

Now, for my unasked-for editorializing.

Homosexuality doesn't match up with the usual qualifications given "sin". It harms no one. It doesn't take anyone away from "God's presence". It's simply being attracted to someone of the same sex. Why is that wrong? Surely there must be some sort of reason. After all, the central principle of most modern religions is that God is understandable. Else why have a rulebook at all?

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

You know, since homosexuality isn't mentioned in the ten commandments, it can't be THAT important, can it?

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."

-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

 

Sol:

Well, the Bible does say "Thou shalt not steal", which is essentially the same as "Thou shalt not act on thy covetous feelings". I think the Hebrew word translated as "covet" carries a connotaion of jealousy, which itself implies hatred of someone because they have something you want. Envy, on the other hand, is just wanting something, but not nesecarily disliking the person that has it. You can be attracted to your best friend's girlfriend, but not hate your friend. Envy would be more of a hatred, or at least a rejection, of the position God has placed you in. God designed humanity in two sexes. Having sex with members of your own gender would be contradictory to God's design of nature. If He had intended for everyone to have sex with anyone of any gender, we'd all be hermaphroditic. Homosexual activity can also be dangerous by spreading disease, and there have been many instances of homosexuals marrying members of the opposite sex, then leaving their spouse and any children they may have for homosexual relationships, simply because they don't resist the temptation, or don't want to. Somehow I doubt that this can be considered not to be harmful.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

As for homosexuality spreading disease.. name me ONE disease that homosexuals get that heterosexuals can't.

And by the way.. did CHRIST say one word directly about homosexuality either way? I know the OT did (but that's the OLD covenant) and Paul blathered on about it, but Paul's not divine (unless you believe that he can override JC)

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

 

1. Everyone educate themselves and don't try to stereotype anyone here.

2. There IS a truth to everything. We just have to find it.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

"Envy would be more of a hatred, or at least a rejection, of the position God has placed you in. God designed humanity in two sexes."

So everything God created is inherintly perfect? When my poor brain manufactures far too much of a certain type of neurotransmitter and I go off my rocker and eat my neighbors, is that good? Is everything that stems from God's perfect creation good? Obviously not. And don't blame it on human choices, because I've never met anyone that can change their own brain chemistry at will.

"Having sex with members of your own gender would be contradictory to God's design of nature. If He had intended for everyone to have sex with anyone of any gender, we'd all be hermaphroditic."

If God had meant man to fly, there would be 20 meter long hawks with natural saddles. If God had meant man to eat with a fork we would have retractable knuckle tines. If God had meant man to be an independant rational being he would have created us with the ability to know the difference between good and evil.

Sorry, but there are lots of things that God didn't create, and unless you're suggesting that everything invented from Adam on is evil and the work of Satan, I don't see any reason to suggest that a romantic relationship between two members of the same sex is any different.

"Homosexual activity can also be dangerous by spreading disease,"

But of course. So can drinking from a public water fountain, or kissing a pretty girl, or...heaven forbid, joining together in carnal abandon. And that's between ANY two people. It's also a good idea to wash your hands after using the bathroom.

"and there have been many instances of homosexuals marrying members of the opposite sex, then leaving their spouse and any children they may have for homosexual relationships, simply because they don't resist the temptation, or don't want to."

You aren't seriously suggesting that repressed homosexuality is a major, or even significant cause of divorce, are you? Because academic interests aside, that's a pretty major slander to quite a few people.

At any rate, what exactly is the problem here? That homosexuals are forced into heterosexual relationships that they have no desire to be a part of? Ouch. Excuse me, I was temporarily blinded by the obvious. Perhaps a better solution would be to construct a society wherein people could pursue those whom they actually cared about, and not be forced into damaging lifestyles simply because "it's the way it's always been done"?

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

I didn't say exclusive diseases, and Paul was divinely inspired. Well, according to the book of Acts, he was, and that was written by the same guy who wrote the Gospel according to Luke (named Luke, oddly enough), so if you throw out one, you have to throw out the other with it.

Sol:

"So everything God created is inherintly perfect?"

Something like that. Thanks to old Luci and free will, though...

Not to say it's ALL Satan's fault, mind you. Just didn't want anyone to misinterpret that.

Your first two examples involve artificial tools, and are thus not analagous, and as for the third, God did create man "an independant rational being". If He hadn't, Adam and Eve couldn't have screwed up in the first place.

"You aren't seriously suggesting that repressed homosexuality is a major, or even significant cause of divorce, are you?"

No, I'm not, but it has been known to happen, and not in just two or three isolated incidents. I can think of at least two off the top of my head. Heck, Paul wrote a letter to an entire city where multiple marriages were breaking up and BOTH partners were seeking out homosexual relationships.

"At any rate, what exactly is the problem here? That homosexuals are forced into heterosexual relationships that they have no desire to be a part of?"

And now we get back to blaming something else... Nobody can force you to do anything. Your actions are your responsibility, and no one else's.

Oh, and Bryce, if your reading this:

I'm under the impression that you are charged by the hour for 'net access, and thus can only write short messages. If so, I have a suggestion: Get online and go to the forum thread you want to respond to. Open the thread in one window, and the reply-to window in another. Then get offline and write your post. Just get back online when you're finished and submit.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

Now wait a minute. You get after me for supposedly pointing blame where it doesn't exist, but when it comes to God's creation, we're at fault? We didn't start the thing. Seems to me any errors in the system are exclusively the fault of the programmer. Unfortunately, I seem to have lost my registration card.

"Your first two examples involve artificial tools, and are thus not analagous, and as for the third, God did create man "an independant rational being". If He hadn't, Adam and Eve couldn't have screwed up in the first place."

Why are you dismissing them? What does the nature of our tools have to do with anything? Define "artificial", for starters. Either God created man with everything he could possibly ever need, or God didn't. If the former, everything in the modern world, including music, poetry, and chairs; are products of rebellion towards God. If the latter, than the Fall wasn't really a bad thing, was it?

"No, I'm not, but it has been known to happen, and not in just two or three isolated incidents. I can think of at least two off the top of my head."

And? I can probably name at least two instances where a couple broke up because one of them was absolutely convinced that aliens where busy siphoning out their brain matter every night. For this we should take everyone who believes they've been abducted out of society and place them in special re-education camps? Perhaps start the Society for the Preservation of Alien Abductee Marriages? (I think I just might...SPAAM...cool.)

I've got this mountain here...what's that you say? Moles? No, there aren't any moles around. Why do you ask?

"And now we get back to blaming something else... Nobody can force you to do anything. Your actions are your responsibility, and no one else's."

I really, really hope that I'm simply misunderstanding you. That's probably the case. Because otherwise it sounds to me that you're saying that the blame for abusive relationships rests on the head of the abused. Not only is that wrong, it's DAMNED wrong.

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
 

quote:

---

"So everything God created is inherintly perfect?"

Something like that. Thanks to old Luci and free will, though...

Not to say it's ALL Satan's fault, mind you. Just didn't want anyone to misinterpret that.

---

You uh... really believe that, don't you?

*stays out of this thread now*

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Avon: "You really do believe in taking risks, don't you?"
Tarrant: "Calculated risks."
Avon: "Calculated on what? Your fingers?"
-- Blake's Seven, Ultraworld
 

Okay, enough of that, let's just end this thread while we all still don't think of killing each other. Let us believe what we believe and see in the end who is right. Okay...okay then. Now, I have to go, my boyfriend is comming over with a bottle of sparkling cider and a box of Trojan's...be nice all of you and I'll see you all later.

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"All you people, can't you see, can't you see
How your love's affecting our reality
Everytime we're down
You can make it right
And that makes you larger than life"

-Backstreet Boys
 

HEE-HEE-HEE.. inherent contradiction in less than twenty words! A new record!

Observe. Two (assumed) true premises, one conclusion which MUST follow.

1.) Everything God created is inherently perfect.
2.) God created Lucifer

Lucifer is inherently perfect.

"Inherent" means "immutable in the character of the object." In other words, something which is inherently perfect MUST remain perfect, else it ceases to be what it is. Something which possesses an inherent characteristic cannot have that characteristic changed from within. It simply IS such a way, unless it is changed from without.

Which begs the question, "what outside force could have corrupted Lucifer, most perfect of God's angels?" The only answer, of course, is "God."

Oh, and if the other guy's examples weren't good enough for you, how about this: "If God had wanted us to run long distances, he would have given us gazelle's legs."

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"We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited September 28, 1999).]
 

to Omega: *shakes his head* (I have done this a lot in this thread). You know for someone who takes me to task (and my religion) for not using there teaching strictly from the bible, you yourself should be more careful my friend. Here's what you said.

[Note the orginal quote is attributed to Sol]

""So everything God created is inherintly perfect?""

"Something like that. Thanks to old Luci and free will, though..."

Perhaps, however that's not what the bible said, if you check the King James edition what does God think of creation. Here it is, in Genesis (btw I put full quotes so no one can say I put it out of context).

1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

1:10 "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding
fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

1:18 "And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

1:21 "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

1:25 "And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing
that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Did anyone sense a pattern, perhaps the term "it was good" (btw if you believe the bible that was the words of God himself), not it was perfect, or it was "inherintly perfect", just good. Perhaps when he said that he meant (here's a thought perhaps take God's word at face value) [the previous statement assumes the blab, blab Christian belief]. The Catholic belief is that everything God created is good, not perfect just good. What happened was free will allowed the creations like humans and angels to decide whether they wished to be good or not. Btw the Catholic defination of evil is the pervertion of Good.

The second statement that annoys me even more, no you can't blame evil on Lucifier, at all. Why simple because to the ability to be evil existed before Lucifier, Lucifier was just the first and most powerful being in history to choose evil. All the Devil can do is tempt people to evil, that's it, period, there is nothing more he can do, he can't make people do evil.

Finally I really don't care about this thread any longer, people have gotten are being hypersensitive about this sensitive topic when I haven't yet seen an attack. It just seems to be a difference in options and the basic facts, not a hate toward homosexuals. Does anyone remember what this thread is about, anyone? Well to refresh everyone's memory it was the Catholic Church's view on homosexuality. This whole bl**dy thread has turned into a bl**dy mess. I am out of here.

[Note upon request I will edit the scripture quotes, there not there to say, you are bad, but to simply so the quotes can not be taken out of context.]

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited September 28, 1999).]
 

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

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�T� eres que lo como!
 

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

If you remember your Genesis (chapter three, IIRC), God cursed the world because of Adam and Eve's sin. So perhaps "was" would be more appropriate.

"Why are you dismissing them? What does the nature of our tools have to do with anything? Define "artificial", for starters. Either God created man with everything he could possibly ever need, or God didn't. If the former, everything in the modern world, including music, poetry, and chairs; are products of rebellion towards God. If the latter, than the Fall wasn't really a bad thing, was it?"

I may be misinterpreting this paragraph, so if so, I'm sorry. Homosexual sex doesn't constitute a tool. I'm using artificial to mean "that part of creation that has been reformed by man to a different purpose". God did create us with everything we could ever need. Everything artificial is just for comfort.

"...or this we should take everyone who believes they've been abducted out of society and place them in special re-education camps?"

I hope you don't think that's what I'm advocating for any group. I've never said ANYTHING about forcing something on people that they don't want. All I've said is that homosexual activity and Christian beliefs are contradictory, that homosexual activity is most certainly under consious control, and if the desire to do so is strong enough, even the homosexual attraction can be changed.

"I really, really hope that I'm simply misunderstanding you."

You are. I never said anything about the blame for a person being abused resting on that person. If, however, that person does something wrong which is infulenced by that abuse, it is still their responsibility. My point was that nobody could force a homosexual into a hetrosexual relationship. It would be THEIR decision. No one else's.

Charles:

Even though chances are you won't be reading this, yeah, I do. Why shouldn't I? It seems to make more sense than believing that God purposefully created something that was flawed.

1of2:

My apologies. I was misinformed as to the definition of the word "inherant". I believed it to mean "originally; at the moment of its creation; by design". So thus, I believe that everything God created was ORIGINALLY perfect. Again, sorry. My bad.

"Oh, and if the other guy's examples weren't good enough for you, how about this: 'If God had wanted us to run long distances, he would have given us gazelle's legs.'"

That would interfere with other activities, wouldn't you say? I don't think gazelle legs wouldn't work too well on a biped, anyway. And we weren't designed NOT to run long distances.

H.M.S.:

"here's a thought perhaps: take God's word at face value"

You might want to remember that the OT was written in Hebrew (and Aramaic, in spots), and, as we all know, one word in a foreign language can have many different translations. And "good" doesn't preclude perfection. Anyway, we seem to be using two slightly different definitions of perfect. Perfect as applied to a sentient being would be "sinless". Perfect as applied to an inanimate object would be "containing or being nothing that could be disadvantagous".

Anyway, in more appropriate response to the exchange that got this particular line of thought going (which was: Me: "God designed humanity in two sexes." Sol: "So everything God created is inherintly perfect?") No, everything God created is not inherintly perfect. Everything God created was originally perfect, but God cursed the universe because of us. God doesn't make mistakes.

"...you can't blame evil on Lucifier..."

No, but if it weren't for him, we'd all be in a worldwide paradise, munching on fruit and running around naked. Of course, that's unproovable, but without him, no initial temptation, thus...

Sunspot:

Why? If nobody's interested in this thread anymore, nobody will post, and the thread will die. Like the Original C/E thread. People said "Let it die", but that doesn't mean lock the thread. That would be more like killing it. Just let it sit. If it dies, it dies, and even I'm not dumb enough to argue with no one here.

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For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
 

Not sure exactly what translation you read and I may have just not been following this thread close enough, but God DID NOT curse the world!

------------------
It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!
"I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"

(And yes, that is the proper spelling. I looked it up.)

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I do indeed and shall continue
Dispatch the shiftless man to points beyond
--
Soul Coughing
 

I third the motion to close the thread.

Without objection, thread closed.

The topic of sexual preference in relation to any religion is a closed topic for the next 30 days. Threads that deal with that subject matter will be closed upon discovery.

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Avon: "You really do believe in taking risks, don't you?"
Tarrant: "Calculated risks."
Avon: "Calculated on what? Your fingers?"
-- Blake's Seven, Ultraworld