That was at you Charles.
Don't get into a flap, I'm not declaring a civil war or being anything but calm and rational. I just wish to exercise my democratic right to speak briefly on recent events at Flare.
I know the truth about what's been going on and I am very disappointed. I have thought long and hard about whether or not to quit the forums in protest, but have decided to remain provisionally.
Just to cover my ass so I don't get banned, I do not wish anyone to start kicking any sleeping dogs - in this thread or elsewhere - because of this post. I doubt it would accomplish anything but provide excuses for more suspensions. I merely had to comment and, as I say, fire a shot across some rather egocentric bows.
That is all.
------------------
"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"
[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 08, 1999).]
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
*holds head in hands* I hope we get this over with... and soon.....
~LOA
------------------
"...my body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
Men Suck. Except Ben & Jerry.... *smile*
#Rikerspeak#
"What the Hell is going on?"
#End Rikerspeak#
Naah, forget it, don't tell me. I think I'd rather remain in the dark.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 08, 1999).]
They drew blood today... that's scary... I was afraid the needles were going to be electricly charged, but they weren't... that's good...
But no... scary is yet to come... sorry if I'm scaring you... not my intentions... just seems to be a sudden talent of mine.......
------------------
"...my body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
Men Suck. Except Ben & Jerry.... *smile*
------------------
*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
quote:
IMHO, CC has done an excellent job of running Solarflare/Flare since it began, and I am confident his decisions are the right ones.
quote:
You know, I spent all those months criticising CC because I felt things could go better around here. Now they are, IMO.
So has he been doing an excellent job since it began, or is he only now doing a great job?
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
Oh...and the famous "firestorming" of the forums where we were before the TNO forums.
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No I'm Spartacus!
The problem with the firestorm that CC seemed to blame Adam for it. Luckily that was probably his last poor decision, and it was corrected, somewhat.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 08, 1999).]
Well, CC did confirm what he did. But, again, this was before the time period I am referring to.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Granted we all are only human, and I don't know all the facts...if any about this latest incident (latest of many)....
but it is hypocritical for him to come down so hard on those two.
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No I'm Spartacus!
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
You know what? The first time I heard about a problem was when I heard about the suspensions.
Granted this isn't a democracy, but one wonders why the sudden clampdown. This is a "discussion forums" for crying out loud.
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No I'm Spartacus!
Sometimes you really go overboard.
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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 08, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 08, 1999).]
And it's not like an innocent poster was removed. Lee just wasn't acting in the forum's best interest as an admin.
Daryus: What are you talking about?
Liam: Lee has been cruel to people we know, like Lance and Boris, among others, and told people not to do their UP 3 work.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited December 08, 1999).]
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Still, I have now changed my mind. Lee Kelly is a spawn of Satan, as well as a complete bastard, and must be made to pay.
------------------
*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 08, 1999).]
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
These things that Lee supposedly said at the chat. For anyone to believe that it is a cohcer you need the entire Chat log so all comments can be seen in context. It's far too easy to twist facts. Secondly these horrible emails that Lee sent out. I'd like to see those too. If you have the above information, email it to me at [email protected] send a copy to CC as well.
I'm sure it will make interesting reading. But without the hard evidence Frank, its hard to take one persons word over another.
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
Let's see the proof. All of it, not just small things. And if all you're basing this on is Leesaying something amusing that even a 6 year-old would brush off, then your case is laughable at best, and the biggest loadof crap since OJ's defense at worst.
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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
I only saved this section of the chat, and Elim and Fabrux can confirm it. It follows a conversation where Fabrux asks about when UP3 info should be completed.
The_1st_On: But in fact I wouldn't bother, to be honest. UP3 is dead.
The_Shadow: Wha?
Fabrux: It's dead before it even got finished?
The_1st_On: Well, let's face it, it is.
The_1st_On: It's going nowhere.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited December 08, 1999).]
So basically, Lee's total crimes include:
He once took pot, and was declared the scum of the earth, directly responsible for the holocaust.
He doesn't handle people people with kid golves. people who are apparently old enough to tell us the exact intermix formula on a galaxy-class starship, but who can't handle hearing the word "crap".
Oh, and his worst crime. He expressed an opinion. Burn him at the stake.
------------------
*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
Liam: There is a major difference between expressing an opinion and expressing an opinion as a person in authority.
Daryus: If you think that insulting forum members and sabotaging a project isn't proof of his ability to lead, I don't know what to say.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited December 08, 1999).]
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
And how exactly do those 3 lines you've shown us constitute "sabotage"? Unless they all contain sumbliminal messages telling you to attack Charles' hard drive and burn his house down.
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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
Lee, a person in authority, is telling people not to work on the project. That's sabotage.
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
I'm afraid to go to bed now, just to see what other crap is spewn forth from here. Oh well.
------------------
*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image
I wish someone'd tell me when a thread like this starts up here. I don't read the Flameboard often.
Ok, first things first, I've made some really STUPID mistakes in the past. You all know what they are, and I know that your trust in me was prolly given a good kick in the head when you found out.
Second, Frank, stop sucking up. The admin positions are filled, give it up!
Third, the thing with Lee. Well, as was pointed out above, he attacked Boris, then removed Boris' posts attacking back. That was the last of a long string of completely unacceptable behavior. In short, Lee was taking out the anger and fusteration generated IRL on the Forumites. Among other things, he's apparently sent out nasty letters concerning spams and deleted posts. (I've gotten third party confirmation of both). He's also been giving everyone a REALLY hard time lately. I originally suspended him to get him to get the hell offline and fix his life.
Well, that worked too well, and he asked Daryus to blow away his profile. Unfortunately Daryus didn't know the cpanel was still screwed up when he deleted the profile, which resulted in some nasty profile corruption for fifty others.
I thought that Daryus DID know that the cpanel was screwed up, and thought his act may have been malicious. I suspended him, hoping to avoid any potential situation later. That was a mistake, I should have waited until I could talk to him.
I'll take this oportunity to sincerely apologize for jumping the gun on that one.
Ok, I think that covers it - questions? *L*
Been here, done this...
I think it's been proven time and time again that CC is as bad as anyone else here. Yet, when someone in power screws up, around here, they're forced to walk the plank. When CC screws up, absolutely nothing happens... Interesting.
Must be nice to be above the law.
------------------
Sheridan: "Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless and totally consistant with what I've come to expect from a Vorlon..."
Kosh: "Good."
Sheridan: "I REALLY hate it when you do that..."
Kosh: "Good."
SapphireEclipse Productions
http://sapphireeclipse.virtualave.net/
CC, I expect this from Daryus, but certainly not you. As I said, I didn't spend all that time criticising you because I was bored. Simply put, I felt you could spend a bit more time considering how your decisions would impact the forums. Whenever this was apparent, I said so, hoping that every time you screamed "stop %$@&ing bothering me" you were still considering at least some of what I was saying.
These days people are rarely banned and posts are rarely deleted - it shows that posters are not considered annoyances but the primary component of the forums. Lee was removed because he didn't understand this, and because he didn't consider the effect on the people he was insulting or attacking. This, above all, indicates that the poor practices of the pre-SolarFlare/Flare boards will not be tolerated. This was my goal, and from what I've seen, it's been achieved.
The following are quotations from former administrators of the board (and not Lee). They represent a time when paranoia and disdain were rampant. I cannot imagine anything like this being said today, which I think represents the greatest improvement on the forums.
"I never invited people to be on the same level as me, and I never let anything escape my attention. People have to earn my respect - and that can take time."
"People come to both to talk to others, and some of those people are just out to cause trouble. Others simply screw something up."
All the time I see UBBs where threads are locked or removed and people banned without explanation or good reason. Hopefully Flare will serve as an excellent example of what they should be doing instead, or at least will once situations like this are resolved.
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"
Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
I'll admit, just from what I saw over the past couple weeks, I thought Lee was becoming a bit erratic, too. And I didn't even know about these apparent malicious e-mails and such.
However, I think the problem here is this suspension. CC says he did it to help Lee. But, to everyone else, a forced suspension is something that happens as a punishment. Perhaps, if CC had asked Lee to take some time off voluntarily, or something to that effect, everyone wouldn't have gotten the impression that Lee had been kicked out. And I think that's exactly the impression people are getting, and that's why they're so mad about it.
I want to assert that I mean no offense by this, but I think CC has a tendency, sometimes, to take action w/o knowing what consequences will come of it. We have a perfect example right in front of us: Daryus. CC's already admitted that he suspended Daryus before he knew exactly what had happened. I'll admit, if he suspected Daryus of malice in corrupting the profile database, it may have been a wise precaution to take away his admin privileges. However, the mistake came in blatantly announcing it to the entire Forums. He didn't forsee that Daryus might be innocent and that these rash actions could make CC look bad (and, I think, help people to second-guess his suspension of Lee).
Another example has already been mentioned: the Destroyer of Forums. CC masterminded the destruction of the SFCR, but didn't admit it. At the time, this probably seemed like a good idea, as he would have gotten in trouble if his role was known. However, he didn't know then that, later, when his part in it would be revealed during his fight w/ Adam, the fact that he had lied about it would cause people to distrust him.
Basically, what I'm saying is that CC has done things in the past that, through lack of foresight, have backfired on him, despite his intentions. Lee's suspension falls into the same category. The situation was handled poorly, and it angered people. Where there's anger, there are people taking sides. And when people take sides, we end up w/ flame wars, just like this thread. I'd like to suggest that, rather than continuing to fling the proverbial mud at one another, we try to come up w/ a solution to this problem that is as satisfactory as possible to all involved. Can we try to resolve something peacefully for once?
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Wait for it...wait for it...
Not!
There isn't really anything more to be said. Nothing constructive anyway. What's done is done. Nothing's more unhealthy then a fixation with the unchangeable past.
------------------
"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell
And are you really saying that the message Lee said while moving Boris' thread was cruel and heartless? Because if so then someone needs to get some fucking balls and stop crying.
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 09, 1999).]
Liam, not everyone appreciates being abused as much as you do.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
The board is CC's, every admin. head of anything makes a lot of mistakes. If I cared, I'd be very upset that everyone is accusing everyone of something. I bet there's a growing thread over at SCI-FI ART right now taking shots at everyone here. If we want UP3 done we need to stop acting like children and grow up a little. I have been with you for 3+ years guys, it's time to stop the name calling.
And if you think I have my head up Charles' end too, let me ask you why would I? I think if you think about it hard enough you will not get a good answer?
*leaves to go read Lamentations*
------------------
With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited December 09, 1999).]
Ahem, care to explain that? And supply me with your definition of abuse too?
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
Then maybe we can get back to doing our happy Flare posting and worrying about things that are really important in life..... like you know.... things IN REAL LIFE....... well, that's my two cents as of now..... take them as you want them.....
*looks at Bryce* Maybe I should go read Lamentations, too.... he might be on to something.....
~LOA
------------------
"...my body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
Men Suck. Except Ben & Jerry.... *smile*
And I'm agreeing with Liam here.
CC is obviously human, we all are. However like it was pointed out, arbitrary punishments with next to no explanations do not help.
------------------
No I'm Spartacus!
Oh, and Lamentations is a book of the bible, but it's in the old testament. The one at the end is Revelations. I don't think there's really any relation between them.
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
As for UP3 those of use who are working on it need to talk more. Silence is not a virtue in this case. The more we talk, the more we get done, the faster we get the worlds largest Star Trek database up and running.
I've now had my say in this whole stinking mess, and hopefully given everyone something to think about.
------------------
Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
We are we going to continue arguing about the matter or are we going to let it go. We will all know the truth eventually anyways, can't we wait.
------------------
With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.
Charles says he had third person evidence about the E-mail's, but no one can produce one.
Frank had a bit from the chat that sounded more like frustration then anything else. To say that he was trying to sabotage the progect is ludicrous.
I used to defend Charles when trouble started. I defended him during The Vorlon mess, backed him in the SFCR mess, and the one time I asked for a little understanding from him, he told me to piss off, in so many words. I left, but I missed the rest of you so badly that I came back after a couple of weeks. The trvth had come out about SFCR in those two weeks, and I felt doubley cheated, but I like this group, and still I came back. Now I don't know what to think. I know for sure that I don't want anymore to do with UPIII.
When I first came here, my first day on the internet, I didn't know anything about spoilers, and took a shot from the USS Coyote(Lee's old nick)for it. But I learned. He's abrasive, we've known that all along, and it seems strange to me that it has become a problem so suddenly. I still haven't seen a good reason for the suspension.
Tec: sorry you and the other newer members have had to see all this, but it happens every so often, usually centerd around Charles.
I could go on and on, but I have to be at the bowling alley in a few minutes. I will still be around after this, but mostly in the background. I only wish I'd had a little more time.
Ed Toler
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 09, 1999).]
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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
Lance Nutter can tell us about the letter he got, if Fabrux or someone can convince him.
And the fact that Lee has been "abrasive" for so long is why he isn't current fit to be an admin.
BTW, in case there's any confusion, keep in mind that Lee was only removed as admin. It was his own choice to leave the board, and he's welcome back at any time, I assume.
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
I ask him why he suspended Lee almost immediately. I had suggested that he talk to the Mod Council WITHOUT Lee to get an opinion.
CC: 'Twas an on the fly decision, I felt that I had to take action immediately before Lee did something bad. By bad I mean destructive.
Me: Explain
CC: In... *counts* three mouseclicks, any admin can wipe out the entire board. Every post.
In a half dozen more, an admin can wipe out every member on the board.
Me: Well what kind of actions would suggest that Lee would do such a thing?
CC: He deleted two posts that were only GENERALLY anti-him. Deleting posts in the first place is a terrible offence. Tell me, when someone posts something nasty about me, do I delete it? No, of course not. That is board policy. Lee attacked Boris. Boris prodded Lee back. Lee deleted the post. Boris protested. Lee deleted that. I suspended Lee. Had I not, I don't know what the hell he would have done next. I'm not saying he woudl have screwed the board over, but I don't believe it could have been good.
At this point I felt that CC had a very valid point to make.
This next portion of our conversation talks about Daryus's suspension:
Me: So why did Daryus do it? I'm under the impression that it was bad judgement.
CC: Bad judgement.. understatement. *He asks me why I think so*
Me: Perhaps he thought the upgrades made to the UBB would protect the profiles if Lee's profile was removed.
*conversation drags on*
Me: What about Daryus? My theory was that he was only helping Lee in deleting his profile, and not for the purpose of corrupting profiles. He probably thought that the profile problems wouldn't be that bad..........
CC: Right now I can't assume anything. I need to speak to him.
There you go. Let your judgement decide.
------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
------------------
Jubes, holding dinner: "What will you give me for the food?"
Me: "My virginity..."
-- Actual quote
And Lee, for his part, denies ever sending out any abusive e-mails to people. This isn't the first time someones been accused of that.
Personally, I don't hink that suspension of Admins should be a spontanious decision. It should at least be discussed with the other Admin first.
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
While I support Lee's Suspension as admin, Lee should have been contacted first BEFORE the announcement be posted, in any case. This is just like posting a large "YOU'RE FIRED" sign in the middle of someone's office for everyone to see before the poor chap even gets there.
And I highly disagree of Daryus's suspension. My reasons are in the above transcript. Both suspensions should have been consulted first before acted upon.
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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited December 09, 1999).]
To the people I told I would leave this alone: Again I'm sorry. I went and bowled a few games, had a few beers, and I'm still angry. I thought I would chill and get over it, but it didn't work.
This isn't the same as the problems we've had in the past. This is an admin getting blown off without any visable evidence.
Tec: again, I'm sorry, looks like you've been around longer then I have.
TSN: Good luck with the admin job, you're goning to need it.
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
And I think you're right that I'll need that good luck. All anyone around here seems to be able to do is insult one another and whine about things that have already happened. There's a whole bunch of babies here and I'm the new sitter...
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
Saying someone's dangerous and suspending them for the good of others is way different than saying that someone needed a break, and ordering them to take one for their own good. One makes you feel rather crappy. Guess which one. I'd suggest, Charles, that you talk to Lee, and at least try to apologize. Good luck to you.
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Frank: It was Lee's erratic behavior that caused the suspension in the first place. Are you really that surprised that he didn't take it well?
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
Jubes, holding dinner: "What will you give me for the food?"
Me: "My virginity..."
-- Actual quote
------------------
"Yeah, well I need a purple wig but you don't see me complaining!"
-Nathan McFarlane
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
"Shoes, yes. Definately. Shoes."
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
As for relations between CC and myself, they're fine. Once he did speak to me he was quick enough to recognise his mistake -as was I- but it basically centered around a misconnunication of the status of some functions which he (I thought) had fixed. If I'd known otherwise I'd have done it via the server. No big deal, in the end as there were sincere apologies coming forth. He just used his well known jump twenty steps ahead trick. Then look back .
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"That is the metaphorical equivalent of flopping your wedding tackle into a lions mouth and then flicking his love spuds with a wet towel".
- Rimmer
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
~LOA
------------------
"...my body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
Men Suck. Except Ben & Jerry.... *smile*
And, as far as Lee's emotional state, I'm just going from CC's comments about his taking out his RL stress at the Forums. I don't know personally what it's all about. However, his behavior recently was not exactly the same it has been in the past. I had noticed it, too, even before the issue was raised.
------------------
"Their 'flower power' is no match for my glower power!"
-C. Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons
Fabrux asked me to post, in regards to Lee Kelley's deletion and general nastiness toward a post I had made.
-I posted a post Lee considered spam, that I didn't.
-Lee deleted post.
-Lee sent nasty email, saying I was banned and all my posts were deleted.
-I read the post, got ticked, but didn't give it too much thought.
-That Friday I purged my inbox, as normal, because I get a rediculous amount of email every week.
-I told Fabrux about my post's deletion and my angst at Lee, he told me to email CC.
-I emailed CC. I got an appology, advised not to post things that may look like spam.
-Big to-do occured here concerning Lee being booted.
-Lee and I spoke to each other, we made up, are buddies again (I know him from r.a.s.t. and news.startrek.com), and all is well.
-Lee doesn't recall sending email, he may not have. Flare sends me an email whenever someone responds to a post, I may have followed the link, read his post to my post, and, a week later, when speaking to Fabrux, become mixed up and said Lee wrote an "email", rather than a "post". I still think he sent an "email", but, I could be wrong. Either way, who bloody well cares?!
I have emailed allot today concerning this, you are all posting allot, and, to be honest, I find this tedious, childish, and absurd. Lee is an honest Trekker with a bad temper, at times. I personally like him, and wish him the best.
So, he treated me bad, I forgave him. Why don't the rest of you try to do the same? Let's all be friends, or, at least, nuetral enemies...
Well, I'm tired, it is 2AM, Good Night, God Bless, Peace, and Long Life, and all that...
Sincerely
Lance, aka, [email protected]
TheTrekker www.homestead.com/thetrekker
Lance
TheTrekker www.homestead.com/thetrekker
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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact
The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
to be fair to Lee, being fired for doing something that he considers part of his job, and not to be informed first, probably didn't put him in a good mood. Worse, to have it announced on the forums first probably didn't help much.
You see, this is why more discussion needs to take place amoungst the people in charge...
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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"Shoes, yes. Definately. Shoes."
IMO, those who want Lee to return here should email him and tell him. I certainly will.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
1/2:
Works for me!
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Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
"Shoes, yes. Definately. Shoes."
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
Anyway, I have so much more experience in this area than any of you could imagine, except Chuckie (that'll still get me suspended, yes?). Me and him have had our spats, much like, oh, Hitler and Stalin had their spats. I know more than any of you how he can fly off the bleeding handle like crap out of a goose (sorry, I was watching Patton). He's ripped me more than once, suspended my ass, kicked me out of the Behaviour Group, stripped me of all priveleges, banned me repeatedly... been a general jerk. Yet, I still respect him (wait... why?, just kidding Chuck)
Likewise, I've had some contact with Lee. Heck, he's so much like me, it's amazing we went so long without a shouting match. As some of you may remember, my arguement with him in a chat helped prompt me to leave. That was when I made the comment of something like "What does he know, he's just a computer repairman?" or something equally offensive. Lee is abrasive. That's what is so fun about him (that and his encyclopedic knowledge of carnality). I read the post in reply to Boris, and I thought that was the nicest thing Lee ever posted here (incidentally, I would've been much crueler, hence the reason Chuck never made me an admin, well, that and the whole hatred we have for each other).
Okay, what do I think about the matter? Chuck needs to cool out. I've been telling him that for how many years? Lee needs to... well, not change at all. I don't see him doing anything wrong, unless being a jerk is wrong, and if it is, I'm in big trouble. I think Chuck should no longer make unilateral decisions. The admins should form some sort of parliamentary system.
And yes, I know this is "CC's forum" but as Chuck will likely acknowledge, if you all left, he's not going to have a forum. As Rage once said, sieze the metropolis, it's you it's built on. I'm not saying you should overthrow Chuck, but he needs to be reigned in by some sort of parliament of admins. He's a wonderful admin, but one with a bit of a temper and prone to bad decisions when he is angry. That's why our blow-up was so damned brilliant, cause I'm exactly the same way (I swear, if we worked in an actual office, me and Chuck would've bludgeoned each other to death with starship models).
Now, I'm sure halfway through this post, Chuck will have the impetus to ban my ass. If he does, that's completely understandable, as I'm intentionally trying to be more offensive than Lee. But I hope he doesn't. And I am sure that as Chuck ages, he will mellow. Hell, _I_ mellowed!!!! (granted, I smashed most of my brain cells through head-banging, so I kind of had to become more vegetablesque). Sod, if I can mellow, Chuck and Lee should be Cheech and Chong before the year is out.
BTW, Liam, I think Frank's response about you liking abuse was an indictment of your S&M lifestyle. Looks like someone found the reciepts for the dominatrix there Liam... (crap, if I don't get banned for this post, Lee should be bleeding commended for his)
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"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
It is if you're an admin.
"And yes, I know this is 'CC's forum' but as Chuck will likely acknowledge, if you all left, he's not going to have a forum."
Correct. That's his motivation for doing a good job, and for removing Lee as admin.
"I think Chuck should no longer make unilateral decisions. The admins should form some sort of parliamentary system."
OTOH, do the admins have any intrinsic motivation for doing a good job? From what I've seen, they don't.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited December 15, 1999).]
I think that nearly everyone on these forums can be real bastards (including me) when we want to be. It's human nature. Why does that discount you from being an admin? Lee posted a message in response to Boris' post which I still don't consider to be insulting. It was Lee being his usual self and it should never have gotten him the aggravation that he's received over it.
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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact
The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War
Here there are a lot of people with a lot of different personalities. Someone will always post something that someone will not agree with.. This is a greatest place to post an opinion and have it read/heard! start a good debate.
I'm not an admin, and I'm not here to tell people how to do their job. However, I do have the benefit of being objective. So here's my objective opinion:
In one sense I agree with suspending someone that it marring a project that you spend every free minute working on. CC must spend a ton of time upkeeping this place, and building UP3 (and I look forward to that CC) (And no!!! My head's not up his ars either) .. .. And maybe he's done mistakes.. big deal... Look at Clinton for cripes sakes !!! The guy's one big screw up and he's still the President of the US. And he's got a high percentage of the popular vote too!! Jean Cr�tien, PM of Canada - oh what a mess he is!!! Leaders screw up!! It's a fact.
But, objectively speaking, if you follow the Star Trek way (cliche, I know) Picard always consults the senior staff before making a serious decision. And CC knows that..
Now ... As an admin of this place.. you have a responsibilty to be above the scwabling. If someone has a poor opinion about something you've done or said ... well .. whether you agree with it or not, apologize and try to understand why they don't agree with you and GET OVER IT. Don't take it so personally. You can't please everyone! But you don't erase someone's post or thread because they slammed you. .. that's just not right!! If it pisses you off, consult the other admin, and make a collective decision as to whether to close the thread or not ..
If I were in CC's shoes, which i'm not, but have been the head of a Networking Dept., if one of my crew was a loose canon and I couldn't trust his judgement, he's gone !! And whether CC has a temper or not.. THIS IS HIS PLACE .. right.. did that ever change?? Yes.. consult the other admins.. but if someone's can't be trusted, you can't have him/her on the crew. Again.. I'm just being objective, agree with me or not. If you wanna slam me.. go ahead... I'll smile and move on.
I have no bad opinions about anyone here. I like coming here, reading about ST and other issues here in the Flameboard and Officer's Lounge. I don't want this place going down because everyone is at everyone's throats.
I guess that's all... Hopefully this SUPER-LONG THREAD is a forum to get everyone's crap out in the open to get some healing done.
CC, Frank, and the other admins.. you're all doing a good job. Keep it up..
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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax
"I think that nearly everyone on these forums can be real bastards (including me) when we want to be. It's human nature. Why does that discount you from being an admin?"
Because part of being a leader is controlling that aspect of "human nature" in administrative actions.
Alshrim:
"As an admin of this place...If someone has a poor opinion about something you've done or said...try to understand why they don't agree..."
Exactly. That is another major part of being a leader.
BTW, I'm not actually an admin, but if you want to start a petition or something to change that, feel free to.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
How 'bout ME AS ADMIN .. vote fer Alshrim Dax.
He may not know what the heck he's doing .. but damn he sure looks good doin' it .. BWAHAHAHA...
[Come Pinky, we've got work to do ...
What are we doin' t'night Brain?
Same thing we do every night, Pinky TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!]
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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax
[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited December 15, 1999).]
As should everyone on the forums.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
And what about you? You're not Emily Post. There could be probably at least one situation where you had very poor judgement. No offense to you, but neither am I. I know of SEVERAL situations where I was a complete Jack@$$ as well, I just don't like talking about it.
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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Frank, can you actually see into Chuck's rectum from where you are? And poor Chuckie... that's gotta hurt. Of all the things I say about Chuck, going that way isn't one of them (not that they're is anything wrong with that, if that's what you are)
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"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
When evaluating CC, I am referring to actions relating to these forums, not any other prior non-forum incidents.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited December 16, 1999).]
I think it might be a good idea if the admins would agree among themselves to get a second opinion when they react to something posted in their part of the forums that makes them want to do something NOW! In practice, the offending post or thread could be locked or hidden, or the offending person banned, with the understanding that the locking or hiding or banning will be reviewed by a certain minimum number of admins. If the "administrational review" agrees with the action, the situation will be allowed to remain unchanged. If, however, a significant number (say, 2/3) disagree, the offending post or person will be unlocked, unhidden, or un-banned.
If such an action were taken, it would not be unreasonable to expect that the person(s) affected by the administrative action be notified what action had been taken, and reminded that the action in question is undergoing review, and that they will be notified as to the final decision. It's only fair.
Several times during (and before) my career in the military I have saved myself untold grief (not to mention jail time) by not decking the idiot who just pissed me off (there was one guy I was soooo tempted to pick up and hurl through the window, but that's another story). Since adverse actions against a member (or an admin) can have such a negative effect on our community, I entreat, but do not demand, that Charles and the rest of the admins adopt some such procedure.
--Baloo
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The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them.
--Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
CC, can you please add a spell checker to these forums... ehehehehehe...
I'm glad you agree Baloo. I respect you're opinion and agree with your post!
**Salut
I notice the spelling errors once I re-read the post.. but I'm too darn lazy to go back and change them.. hehe... I'm usually a nit-pick when it comes to stuff like that .. But here.. I'm sure everyone gets the drift !
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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax
[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited December 16, 1999).]
Oh, and DT, are you standing up for Lee?
See, if even Mr Daniel Tydeman can get over arguing with Lee (and it was an argument that threatened to involve nuclear firepower), then I'm sure Boris could.
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
That's all I have to say at this time.
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
*sighs, wishing he'd quietly closed the thread when noone'd posted to it for a few days...*
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
[This message has been edited by Charles Capps (edited December 16, 1999).]
--Baloo
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You can't seriously want to ban alcohol. It tastes great, makes women appear more attractive, and makes a person virtually invulnerable to criticism.
--Mayor Quimby
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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"The battle is raging inside my weary heart
screaming for me to let it all go...
My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
I've got a suggestion for the government of the Forums. If Charles wanted to take a less active role, so as to have more free time (not that he actually does anything around here anyway ), he could just sit back, take care of really high-level things (pay for the stinkin' thing, make periodic backups if feasable, etc.) and take it easy, create a couple new admins to take up the slack, and let them run the site democratically (subject to his overriding veto, of course). Maybe come up with some sort of password system where to make any major change (like banning someone), some majority has to enter their personal (rotating?) passwords. That way we wouldn't have these problems. Just an idea.
Oh, and he'd have more time to work on UP3.
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
And I think a democratic-esque government could/would be a good idea, if implimented correcntly.
--Baloo
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You can't seriously want to ban alcohol. It tastes great, makes women appear more attractive, and makes a person virtually invulnerable to criticism.
--Mayor Quimby
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
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"We exist in a boundless time continuum. There is no weekend!"
- Zorak, "Hungry," Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
*runs away screaming*
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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.
Frank, what Chuck did involving me DID involve the Forums. Just because I have a longer memory of the Forums doesn't mean it didn't happen. Don't try to contradict me, either. Myself, Chris, Chris, Jon, and Chuck (and Daryus, by extension of myself and the latter) can all vouch for the kind of crap that went on. (incidentally, I've both apologized for my extensive wrong-doing at the time and forgiven Charles for his overreaction, which is what more of you should learn to do, for piety's sake, we're all human, except for Simon who is, of course, a cyborg)
Charles: Always count on me to find dying embers and turn them into a raging inferno :-)
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"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
Except of course, we probably won't light a fire when Charles dies and lock ourselves together until we pick a new admin.
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"Is this real life? Is this just fantasy?"
-Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody
Seriously though, if people had been banned for having a go at others in the way that Lee had a go at Boris, there wouldn't be anyone left to argue over it. We'd all be banned.
Stop being so sensitive about things like this, which are IMHO no big deal.
Lee was always a good admin, but he was always the way he is. He has ripped people apart before but nothing happened then. Why now? What's so different between then and now?
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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact
The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War
Which is why nobody is banned for things like this anymore.
"Lee was always a good admin, but he was always the way he is. He has ripped people apart before but nothing happened then. Why now? What's so different between then and now?"
Because it's happened one too many times.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
--Baloo
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I once lost my corkscrew and had to live on food and water for several days
-W.C. Fields
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
I believe I said that tho' didn't I??
and I agree..
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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
And how exactly do you tell a mean spirited tone from a sarcastic tone? Or a gently poking the fun tone? Over type? eh?
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
there are many ways. But admins shouldn't regularly say things that easily seem like attacks.------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
Likewise, when he got back one day, having had to hike 4 miles with a bad hangover (I dunno why we went hiking on a Choir trip. Our Head of music was a bit weird), they asked him if he enjoyed himself. And he said that he'd had a wonderful time. And they didn't get it.
Eventually they asked him if, everytime he was sarcastic, he could put a hand on someones shoulder.
And you lot wonder why we Brits dissowned you. It's just not the British sense of humour to after every comment. You just rip the piss out of each other, and you know when it hurts because, well, it's genuinly hurtful. Saying that someone's wife is a manky, ugly bitch who can't count past the wrinkles on her neck is offensive. Saying that someone will loose nerd cred points isn't.
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 19, 1999).]
Oh, yeah, before I forget...
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
You question Lee for his comments to Boris, support his exclusion from the forums, then change the rules so no-one gets banned for the same thing again.
Why? Was this just an excuse to get rid of Lee?
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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact
The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War
He is free to post at any time.
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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
He has not yet done so.
Clear?
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
Lee, Lee, he's our man!
If he can't insult people, no one can!
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"Sell the kids for food" - Kurt Cobain
In Bloom, Nirvana
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"That is the metaphorical equivalent of flopping your wedding tackle into a lions mouth and then flicking his love spuds with a wet towel".
- Rimmer
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
And Lee's probably got some self-respect, so i can't see him grovelling back.
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
Of course he's free to return, but should he? His comments were blown out of all proportion and the stick he got was undeserved. Until someone admits that they overreacted in the time leading upto Lee's departure, he can't return.
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Worf: He is an overgrown child and she is...confused.
O'Brien: It could still work.
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"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."