I know the minister by reputation, he lives across the hill from me. two years ago, one of the local looneys decided he wanted to be a minister, and started harrassing Randy. Randy took it, and turned the other cheek, for about a year. Then the looney, Mr Short, cornered Randy outside the church one night. Randy kicked his ass.
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
It's about time somebody stood up to these lunatics.
I'd write more, but I have library patrons.
------------------
Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 17, 1999).]
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
*raises an eyebrow* Hmmmm......... I'm not sure what to say on that one... I mean, I support Creation in schools 100% because I think it's wrong to teach one theory and not the others... however... I dunno... some of those people seemed a little TOO bent on their cause....
Anyway..... that's my say for now....
Oh... and a sidenote.... I got an A on my research paper about why Creation should be taught in schools along with Evolution... just wanted to share that with ya 
~LOA
------------------
"The battle is raging inside my weary heart
screaming for me to let it all go...
My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
Still, went to a Catholic school, and no-one, not teacher nor student, even made the slightest pretense that creationism was as viable a theory as evolution. Actually, the RE lessons were spend discussing the metaphours, and telling us not to kill people.
My teacher even attempted the tricky 'gay' issue, and no-one got upset. If it comes down to gays or ginger-hiared people, most kids would rather be friends with a gay.
And to resurrect an old point, I notice that the people advocating the teaching of creationism based on the "wrong to teach one theory and not the other" argument aren't also clamoring for the teaching of the other theories that Sol will no doubt name...
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 17, 1999).]
Two different theories exist concerning the origin of children: the theory of sexual reproduction, and the theory of the stork. Many people believe in the theory of sexual reproduction because they have been taught this theory at school. In reality, however, many of the world's leading scientists are in favour of the theory of the stork. If the theory of sexual reproduction is taught in schools, it must only be taught as a theory and not as the truth. Alternative theories, such as the theory of the stork, must also be taught. Evidence supporting the theory of the
stork includes the following:
1. It is a scientifically established fact that the stork does exist. This can be confirmed by every ornithologist.
2. The alledged human foetal development contains several features that the theory of sexual reproduction is unable to explain.
3. The theory of sexual reproduction implies that a child is approximately nine months old at birth. This is an absurd claim. Everyone knows that a newborn child is newborn.
4. According to the theory of sexual reproduction, children are a result of sexual intercourse. There are, however, several well-documented cases where sexual intercourse has not led to the birth of a child.
5. Statistical studies in the Netherlands have indicated a positive correlation between the birth rate and the number of storks. Both are decreasing.
6. The theory of the stork can be investigated by rigorous scientific methods. The only assumption involved is that children are delivered by the stork.
------------------
"The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived."
--
Soul Coughing
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 17, 1999).]
You go, girl!
Sol:
You people just don't listen, do you? I've said it before, and I'll say it once more: there's a huge difference between sexual reproduction and evolution. Sexual reproduction is a documented, observable process (assuming you can find willing participants, that is). Evolution assumes several things happened that there is no evidence for, and can not be reproduced today. On top of that, there are only vague ideas of how these things happened (beginning of life, anyone?). Creation may not be a scientific theory, and it may well be on the level of the story of a stork being involved with babies (you can't proove that storks AREN'T some unknown factor in reproduction, after all), but evolution is definitely no better, and probably considerably worse, since it makes predictions that aren't true.
Do you guys really want me to list all the holes in evolution again? I found a couple more.
Liam:
Other theories? Again, life in its present form either came about due to intelligent design or random chance. What other posibilities are there?
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
How's about Norse myth? I'm sure kids would love to hear how Odin created the world. It contains vioence and probably bad language too.
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
"Shoes, yes. Definitely. Shoes."
I'd still like to know whose version of creation we should teach. Remember that most myths have the world coming about by chance, due to some action of the gods. Odin and his brothers slew their father, whose corpse became the world we live in. Hardly an aspect of intelligent design. (Though Odin did specifically create night and day.) Or perhaps the one from Japan, where two happy gods discovered they had different parts "down there", decided to plug up the gap between them, and happened to give birth to lots of things. Again, hardly an aspect of intelligent design.
The idea of some overriding intelligent aspect to the creation of the world is common to Judeo-Christian traditions and some others. But it is by no means a universal constant.
Beyond that, I've personally created a number of different scenerios that didn't fit in with your nice little dichotomy. Of course, you ignored them for the most part, or simply glossed over their differences.
------------------
"The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived."
--
Soul Coughing
------------------
--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
Let's debate the Stork theory (ST) v.s. the Sexual Intercourse theory (SIT).
Living in New Mexico, I have noticed a definite lack of storks. Does the ST explain how babies manage to arrive in an area with a complete absence of storks or stork-like avians?
Is it possible that babies are delivered by roadrunners or prairie dogs? If so, this might explain the apparent brain damage exhibited by the locals. Such low-slung delivery creatures could not possibly deliver the necessary babies without bumping them along the ground occasionally, creating a risk of head injury/brain damage.
And what about the Cabbage Patch Theory (CPT)? Does it have any supporters in these forums? If so, why are you remaining silent? That smells a lot like a conspiracy to me!
------------------
I once lost my corkscrew and had to live on food and water for several days
-W.C. Fields
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
And if your theory of creation is so bleedin wonderful, can't it stand up against the theory of evolution?
Both of you guys think you have the best theory, so put them up against each other and let them compete. Let the children make their own decisions. My Professor always used to prevent us with both sides of the story, Napoleon died vs Napoleon was murdered, Rommel took part in the July 20th putsch vs Rommel was on the periphary, etc. We can't observe the beginning of mankind, can we? It is history. The bleedin amoeba didn't write down an account, and the one that chap up in the heavens did too many of us don't buy. So present the evidence and let the children decide on their own.
------------------
"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
Cobain and Vedder support evolution.
The problem is, there WAS a time when creation and evolution were both out there and debated. Shortly after a little book by Charles Darwin. "Madness!" cried the scientific establishment. "Completely unsupported!"
Until, after further study, the claims began to change. "Hey, this fits right in with my observations of continental drift!" says one scientist. "These three species are seperated just like Darwin's theory predicted." says another. And so, like any scientific theory, the theory of evolution came to be accepted by scientists the world over.
Unfortunately, while science exists by constantly changing and adapting, there are other forces in the realm of humanity that can only survive through rigid tradition.
------------------
"The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived."
--
Soul Coughing
Creationism had, and continues to have, absolutely NO verifiable evidence to back it up, as its main assumption, the existence of a Creator Being, remains unproven and unprovable, while the major assumptions behind Evolution, that of natural selection, the existence of non-harmful mutations, and the observable occurance of speciation (although Omega and those like him are in deep denial about this last bit) in the laboratory, are documented FACTS.
Pointing out the minor apparent flaws (most of which have already been explained, but those explanations are conveniently dismissed or altogether ignored in Creationist publications -- most of which don't contain any reference sources within the past ten years anyway) in one argument, incidentally, does NOT constitute proff of another position.
------------------
Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
I guess this means that the Stork/Sexual Intercourse/Cabbage Patch theories are too touchy a subject for debate.
------------------
I once lost my corkscrew and had to live on food and water for several days
-W.C. Fields
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
Anyway Mr T, Sol and Omega HAVE gone 50 rounds with each other, usually in the following format:
Omega listed a small error in the theory of evolution.
Sol pointed out what was wrong with Omega's appumption, and gave sicetific references to back him up.
Omega listed another point.
Sol did the same again. And countered that Omega prove Creationism
Omega pointed out another flaw in the theory of evolution. Another flaw like the common miconception of the law of thermodynamics, which is something that creationsits always use which science managed to explain a few decades ago.
Sol points out Omega's error.
Omega ignores this and lists another small problem.
Sol screams.
Sol dissapears from his house.
He returns one week later, with blood all over his hands, muttering "natural selection at work, nothing more" to himself.
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 18, 1999).]
A computer is a horrible analogy for a cell. Absolutely horrible. Mainly because they have about as much in common as Celine Dion and Bjork.
I'll try and say this as clearly as possible. Evolution does not work through random spattering. There are certain laws that must be obeyed. That's why it's science. To use the example I've used time and time again, if you randomly toss letters out it will take 10^huge number years to get Hamlet. But if you keep what works (as natural selection does) and toss what doesn't (as natural selection does) you can do the whole play (via computer) in just a few days.
"...since evolutionists claim that there was no oxygen in the atmosphere when life formed, there would thus be no O3, thus no o-zone layer, thus the cell would be fried by ultraviolet radiation as soon as it was formed (assuming amino acids can exist in the presence of UV, of course; not sure here)?"
That isn't an "evolutionist claim". It's a simple fact. Free oxygen cannot exist for long without some source creating it. That source is life. (On a side note, this means that if we ever detect a world with large amounts of oxygen in its atmosphere, it's a pretty good bet there is life there too.) Secondly, ultraviolet is damaging to the larger lifeforms we currently see. But there is a whole host of more primitive forms of life that think UV rays tickle. We're talking about bacteria that can survive in the presence of radiation strong enough to turn glass brown. Life is far more hardy than you give it credit for. It is only us bigger and more fragile things that can't take the heat. Luckily for us, such earlier lifeforms happen to create, as a waste product, this nifty gas called oxygen. Unlucky for them, since it's a deadly poison to the sort of bacteria I'm talking about. But their sacrifice made for our breathable air.
"..if a given individual mutated in such a way that they couldn't reproduce with other members of their species, thus becoming a new species, that mutation would not be passed on, since, by definition, the individual with the mutation couldn't reproduce"
Another common misunderstanding of evolution. It doesn't affect individuals, it affects groups. Speciation occurs when enough subtle changes build up in the group's gene pool so as to make them unable to breed with other groups. Besides, the breeding definition of species is by no means an ironclad rule. As you would expect given evolutionary theory, some species are still related enough to interbreed.
You seem to consistantly misrepresent what evolution actually is, and I think that's the source of all this confusion.
------------------
"The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived."
--
Soul Coughing
Religious zealots: Stop being so dogmatic! Did it ever occur to you that you're wrong? I could sit here and rip your doctrines to shreds using nothing but the Bible (but I don't feel like it). Isn't it entirely possible that you may be wrong? Couldn't evolution possibly have happened?
See, that's the mark of a bad idea. It can't stand up against other ideas.
Simon, if your theory is as brilliant as you say, then the kiddies will look at the evidence and come to the conclusion you did.
Omega, if your theory is as iron clad as you say, then the kiddies will have their faith in god reassured.
(god not capitalized, cause I wrote for Pravda pre-1942)
------------------
"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
1/ Too stupid to undertand the science behind the theory.
2/ Too busy fragging each other in Quake to care
3/ Too busy trying to resurrect Aeris to care
4/ To indoctrined to care.
BTW, I challenge you to go to a school in the UK ad find more that 5 kids who support creationsim. Go on.
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
"I like you. You're funny. I say that because these are the exact same arguments that First of Two and I have refuted before."
You didn't refute them before. You misunderstood them, and when I explained further, you never replied. And you say I ignore your points...
"A computer is a horrible analogy for a cell. Absolutely horrible."
Sorry, but it's the only thing I could think of that executes it's programming. Or even has programming, for that matter. Any better suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
"I'll try and say this as clearly as possible. Evolution does not work through random spattering. There are certain laws that must be obeyed. That's why it's science. To use the example I've used time and time again, if you randomly toss letters out it will take 10^huge number years to get Hamlet. But if you keep what works (as natural selection does) and toss what doesn't (as natural selection does) you can do the whole play (via computer) in just a few days."
Granted, but natural selection can't come into effect until you have life to work with. With amino acids, you don't have degrees of what works and what doesn't. It either can metabolize and reproduce, or it can't. Thus, life could not have originated by chance (unless you like dealing with numbers that are tens of millions of digits on the right side of a decimal, that is).
"Another common misunderstanding of evolution. It doesn't affect individuals, it affects groups. Speciation occurs when enough subtle changes build up in the group's gene pool so as to make them unable to breed with other groups."
That wouldn't work, because then you could end up with three groups, where A could reproduce with B, and B could reproduce with C, but A couldn't reproduce with C. That doesn't work, because, by definition, if they can reproduce, then they're of the same species. If A can reproduce with B, they're of the same species. If B can reproduce with C, they're of the same species. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Thus A and C are of the same species, and can reproduce. That means that you can not use subtle mutations in whole groups to explain the origins of species.
"Besides, the breeding definition of species is by no means an ironclad rule. As you would expect given evolutionary theory, some species are still related enough to interbreed."
Uh, no. They can't. Again, if two individuals can reproduce, they have to be of the same species, by definition.
DT:
"I could sit here and rip your doctrines to shreds using nothing but the Bible (but I don't feel like it)."
Uh, no. You couldn't. First of Two tried. He failed. You wanna have a go at it, then meet your newest ICQ buddy.
"Couldn't evolution possibly have happened?"
No, at least, not without extreme divine intervention, which is what I'm trying to show you all.
And no one say "All things are possible through Christ...", for I will smite thee mightily.
Liam:
"BTW, I challenge you to go to a school in the UK ad find more that 5 kids who support creationsim. Go on."
And I challenge you to go to any school, anywhere, and find more than five kids who can actually explain the details of either theory. Actually, I challenge you to find five scientists who actually AGREE on the details of evolution. That might be harder.
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 18, 1999).]
And First is a goddamned heathen. I'm not, I believe every single solitary word in the Bible. That's the difference. Prepare to have a crisis of faith.
------------------
"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
"You didn't refute them before. You misunderstood them, and when I explained further, you never replied. And you say I ignore your points..."
On the Twain Scale, that falls under Damn Lie.
"Sorry, but it's the only thing I could think of that executes it's programming. Or even has programming, for that matter. Any better suggestions would be greatly appreciated."
Not bad. Except of course that has almost no relation to a cell, which is a glorified engine.
"Granted, but natural selection can't come into effect until you have life to work with."
Translation: I'd rather twist this subject around some more. "Life" meaning what, exactly? And I have no idea what it is you think amino acids are, or what they do.
And again, you apparently have no idea what a species is. Donkeys are one species, horses are another. And yet they can interbreed. Those offspring are sterile, but so what? That's why the two species are moving apart. You can find several more examples of various groups on the cusp of going their seperate ways.
Though I'm not DT, I feel I should warn you, he's FAR from being in the same camp as First of Two and myself. He's rather skilled at dogma. Personally, I'd like to see the outcome of that particular battle, but hey.
------------------
"The demon was an idea, the demon is awake. Scratch mark left across the surface of your mind. This hour now upon us, the hour has now arrived."
--
Soul Coughing
"On the Twain Scale, that falls under Damn Lie."
I don't think it was Twain that said that, but I'm not sure who it was...
"Translation: I'd rather twist this subject around some more. "Life" meaning what, exactly? And I have no idea what it is you think amino acids are, or what they do."
You want me to define life, and you say I'm twisting the subject? *L* OK, let's see. Life, meaning the difference between an inanimate primordial soup and a chain of DNA molecules that is capable of reproducing itself in such a manner that its offspring can also reproduce in a similar fasion; at least, life in the sense we're familiar with, which is what we're talking about. Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction, and there can be said to be a population. Thus, before the mythical first cell divided, natural selection couldn't come into play. Thus, obviously, before the first cell was formed, natural selection could play no part, and your idea about it being involved in the formation of said first cell is shot to heck.
"And again, you apparently have no idea what a species is. Donkeys are one species, horses are another."
Not if they can interbreed. Might wanna look up species in a dictionary sometime.
"Though I'm not DT, I feel I should warn you, he's FAR from being in the same camp as First of Two and myself. He's rather skilled at dogma. Personally, I'd like to see the outcome of that particular battle, but hey."
I'll save you a copy of the chat log(s). That is, if DT doesn't mind.
DT:
"Well, if it is so impossible, then the children obviously won't believe it. So then, what's the problem?"
As I said, you probably couldn't find five kids in any given school who could explain the thing. And as for people believing impossible things, there are people out there who think socialism works...
OK, bad example. There are people out there who believe in global warming because they think that 98% of scientists believe in global warming, and they think THAT simply because Alpha Gore said so in that dumb book of his. The last I heard, the number was well under 50%.
"And First is a goddamned heathen."
I'm sure he'll be glad to hear you say that. He does have his reasons for not believing in God, but he doesn't seem to like talking about them very much, so whatever they are, let's not insult him about it, eh?
"I'm not, I believe every single solitary word in the Bible. That's the difference. Prepare to have a crisis of faith."
*puts on his armor and brandishes the sword of the word*
You're on!
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
"And I challenge you to go to any school, anywhere, and find more than five kids who can actually explain the details of either theory"
Unfair. I think you'd have trouble finding 5 kids who can explain how television works. It doesn't mean that they believe that magical fairies inhabit the box acting out drama does it?
Actually, could someone PLEASE explain to me exactly what the theory of creationism is anyway?
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
"...are you saying that over half the scientists in the world don't belive in the greenhouse effect?"
No, I'm saying that over 50% of scientists don't believe in global warming. There's a difference between that and the greenhouse effect. Well over 90% of greenhouse gasses are natural.
"I think you'd have trouble finding 5 kids who can explain how television works."
True, but most kids don't care, either. They don't believe one explination or another. Most kids who believe evolution (or my particular creation beliefs, for that matter, not that you could find many at all) believe it without knowing how it supposedly works.
And I did look up species.
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
spe-cies \'sp�-(,)sh�z, -(,)s�z\ n, pl species (1551)
1 d (1): a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name
/definition
And I remind you that there are breeds of mule that are not sterile.
------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions
"A Hell of a Law Firm"
I'm a "goddamned heathen," am I?
Well, for the "goddamned" part, let's let whatever God exists make the final judgement on that, shall we?
Heathen:
1. One who adheres to a religion that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism.
I suppose you could call a Deist that, except that I don't really 'adhere' to any organized religion.
2. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
Yes, no, and no, respectively.
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I'm perfectly capable of talking about the multitude of reasons for my lack of belief in the Judeo-Christian God As Advertised. But this thread is not the proper place.
I say again, pointing out percieved problems with evolution details as a defense of creationist dogma is COMPLETELY INADEQUATE. Especially since one could go on for years citing problems with Biblical details, contradictions, and inadequacies, as retaliatory "proof" against the existence of the JudeoChristian God As Advertised, which in its turn would get no closer to "proving" evolution.
So take another tack, prove the "God Hypothesis" incontrovertibly, or pipe down.
Furthermore:
"Life, meaning the difference between an inanimate primordial soup and a chain of DNA molecules that is capable of reproducing itself in such a manner that its offspring can also reproduce in a similar fasion; at least, life in the sense we're familiar with, which iswhat we're talking about. Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction, and there can be said to be a population. Thus, before the mythical first cell divided, natural selection couldn't come into play. Thus, obviously, before the first cell was formed, natural selection could play no part, and your idea about it being involved in the formation of said first cell is shot to heck."
is completely incorrect.
1.) A VonNeumann machine could self replicate, but would not be alive. This is irrelevant, except as a refutation of your definition of life as being self-replicating.
2.) Cells are not the smallest things which self-replicate. The smallest DNA strand can do it, and perhaps there are other amino acids that can, as well. In fact, there appears to be a single protein which DNA uses as a catalyst for self-replication. Protein molecules, easily found in nature, are capable of action, and are not even as complicated as DNA.
3.) Most nucleotides are nonsense, but the number of ways to put nucleotides together to perform a USEFUL function (ie, one BENEFICIAL to life) is stupefyingly large.. probably greater than the number of electrons in the universe.
4.) " Natural selection doesn't work until something is capable of reproduction" is a misstatement, at BEST. Natural selection, usually, precludes something from having offspring, often by killing it before it can reproduce. Therefore, the possibilities for something to be 'deselected' before 'the first cell divides' exist.
5.) and of course, the assertion you make that I just spoke of also discounts the SECOND main pillar of evolution, Mutation. I am a mutant. YOU are a mutant. Every single human being contains genetic changes that were not presint in either parent's DNA. Usually 100 or so, but generally only 3 may have any beneficial or ill effects, assuming what they do doesn't cancle each other out. (Hence people with better than 20/20 vision, people with increased lung capacity or ability to metabolize foods, as well as people with cystic fibrosis and certain other defects.)
------------------
Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 19, 1999).]
BTW, these non-strele species of mule. Exactly what can they interbreed with?
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
I had expected some hilbilly bashing in this thread. How disapointing.
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
Seriously though, for what I Was trying to contrast, the situation works. DOn't worry, a lot of my friends are heathens or, even worse, Catholics. So I won't hold it against you.
Liam: Anyone who knows the names of the episodes of Friends certainly has my respect :-)
Omega: Bring it on! BTW, I'm always in privacy mode, so you just need to take a shot in the dark.
And incidentally, Brutus was the most noble Roman of them all, for all but he did what they did out of envy of Great Caesar.
------------------
"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana
------------------
"I suppose you thought I was dead? No such thing. Don't flatter yourselves that I haven't got my eye upon you. I am wide awake, and you give plenty to look at."
Household Words, Aug. 24, 1850
From the Raven in the Happy Family
Lemme just say one of my four Bio textbooks was on Creation and other Bio things in relation to Christianity. There were maybe 10 different "Creation" theories in the book. It would be impossible to teach just one, besides all of Science is based on concepts of Darwin so to get rid of Evolution is to get rid of science.
But before you guys say I have given in let me just say my Bio prof ingrained Creation in us, but my Bible professor ripped the "laymen's" idea of Creationism apart and told us it wasn't BIBLICAL. And he is right. Every sect of the Judo/Christian/Islamic faiths have a slightly different take on Creationism. It cannot be taught right at the high school level so don't teach it at all.
I think there is a Creation concept not yet discovered that is correct, but someone has to find it. It's just too complex an issue for some half-baked school board to decide whose Creation theory they should teach.
Oh and tothe person from the Catholic school and the four authors of Genesis. Sorry you had to hear that, they were way off.
------------------
With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.
BTW, the exact definition of species is still in dispute so to say whether or not a mule is one depends on who you talk to.
AND, a properly educated Christian will say that science was created by God and therefore the two do not conflict.
------------------
With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.
-Not right now, I'M ON BREAK!
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited December 22, 1999).]
Then of course, there's that little problem that crops up when you either get your facts wrong or your misinterpret the facts. Getting angry because someone disagrees with you is absurd. Either they can't see that you are right, you are wrong, or you're both wrong. There's a slim chance that you're both right, but the probability for that case approaches zero.
Your best bet is to lay out your case, and hope that the other person understands what you are trying to tell them. Agreement is optional.
--Baloo
------------------
When only the police have guns, it's called a police state.
-- Bumper Sticker
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
And I also agree with Bryce... properly trained creationists SHOULD agree that God created science, and thus science and creation are not in conflict.... think "guided evolution".... sure, we evolved, but maybe someone came up with that plan of evolution? Just a thought...
~LOA
------------------
"The battle is raging inside my weary heart
screaming for me to let it all go...
My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
On a side note, the board is about to be under investigation. The former head of state schools, while applying for a similar job in Las Vegas, told the board there that businesses here had paid for his house and a country club membership, along with a few other things. They told him they would need more detail, and he refused. But word got back here, and since it is Illegal in West Virginia, he is not only out of a job he is now under investigation.
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 23, 1999).]
"DOn't worry, a lot of my friends are heathens or, even worse, Catholics."
What is that supposed to mean?! You don't want me to go on a tirade defending my religion, do you? Because, believe me, I won't hesitate a second...
------------------
New sig coming soon!
It may be quite possible that DT is (or was) Catholic, and therefore can joke about the matter with impunity. A sense of humor -- don't leave home without it.
------------------
When only the police have guns, it's called a police state.
-- Bumper Sticker
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
------------------
New sig coming soon!
------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
I mean... seroiusly... you should hear some of the things my friends say about Lutheranism (I'm Lutheran... well... yeah..) In a way, maybe they're mean... but seriously.. I think more than anything, they're funny....! I mean, like REALLY funny... hehehe.....
But anyway.... like Baloo said, never leave home without your cloak of humor.... you won't make it in the real world without it
~LOA
------------------
"The battle is raging inside my weary heart
screaming for me to let it all go...
My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...
the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
And I love comments like "I can laugh at myself as well as the next person. As long as they don't insult my religion. Or race. Or hair colour. Or favourite band. Or..."
------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera