I don't really know what happen to start out with, so no commment on the police actions.

But dude, does the police have to point that MP-5 at that Cuban boy's head?

If I'm a boy at his age, I'll be pissing my pants, not to mention the nightmares for countless nights.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

 

And the best excuse that law enforcements can come up with is "the police didn't put his finger on the trigger"

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob

 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Oh my God! Clinton have "red" written all over his face! (plus lier and cigar smoker, although I doubt the way he smokes his cigar is appropriate, if you catch my drift.)

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

------------------
"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
 

------------------
*Amusing quote not available, please call back later*

 

1. Would the family have refused to hand the child over if a federal marshall had shown up at the front door with a court order for the child to be turned over?

2. Was it a significant possibility that the family would use weapons to ensure that the child remained on their premises?

3. What reasoning did the federal government use to justify drug-raid tactics to secure a small child for deportation (or whatever they're calling it)?

Federal marshalls don't do that sort of raid without being ordered to do exactly thus. The action would have to have been approved by Janet Reno, who would have, in turn, have had to inform the President of her intentions.

Politely, but firmly asking for what it wants does not seem to be a part of the Justice Department's repertoir of late. This worries me (though not endlessly -- I've had more pressing issues on my agenda of late).

--Baloo

------------------
"A plain, good-hearted woman who loves you is infinitely more beautiful than any "gorgeous" woman who values your possessioins more than you."
-- Me
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

And just out of curiosity, exactly why does the attorney general, the equivalent of a district attourney, have the authority to remove a child from its home without any court authorization? Why does she have that authority under any circumstances? It's simply not in the job discription.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

Oh Sol, you really are priceless.

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

I'm not trying to say one way or the other... I just would like to know. What if such a thing happened between the US and Canada? or the US and Mexico? Or any other two countries? what is the protocol?? in such a situation? Anyone know?

------------------
"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
 

At any rate, this case should have been open and shut. In this sort of situtation, by law, regardless of the nation of origin, custody reverts to the parents. Open and shut, I say. Furthermore, Omega, I have not seen a single source giving credence to what you claim that doesn't originate from the relatives in Miami. Surely, they wouldn't be guilty of making outrageously biased claims to further their own agenda? I mean, that never happens in messy custody battles, does it?

"She's a drunk and brings home a different man every night!"

"He's a wifebeater and has horrible taste in architecture. Why, he thought Fallingwater was where the local teens would go to skinny dip!"

Had Elian been the son of an American being kept in Cuba by long-seperated relatives, can you imagine the hell that would have been raised?

The sad fact is, this case is a tragedy all around. A young boy has, in the course of a few short months lost his mother and learned that family cannot be depended upon. Moreover, when he returns his life will be anything from normal. He's not a boy in Cuba anymore, he is an Image. An Icon. And he won't be able to escape that. That is the real tragedy here.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

To try and make a long story short, Cuban/American relations are anything but normal. In this specific situation, as I mentioned, international law is relatively clear, or so says my lawyer cousin.

There is an unofficial U.S. embassy in Havana, known as the...commerce office of something something, I believe. I don't know whether traditional embassy rules apply to it. It doesn't have an official ambassador. Cuba's relations with the U.S. are conducted via their representative to the U.N., I believe. (Side note: After checking a source or two, I found that the U.S. is represented in Cuba and vice versa through the Swiss Embassy in both nations. But I believe my other claims are true as well.)

As to the history of the thing, I think one of our posters who lived through the Cuban Missle Crisis could expound upon this far better than I, but as I see it it all comes down to inertia.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

(Eg, I can't be bothered typing out the whole thing now *L*).

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!

F****** PRESS, SHUT UP!

OJ, menendez, kathy lee gifford, Colorado, Who wants to be a F****** Millionare,F****** cuban thing, Shut up you all!!!!!!!

AAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only thing these things are good for, other than year long stand in the newspapers (which makes for a year long debate around the water cooler), are sketches for SNL.

Every little thing that happens (I.E.: It's been five months, six days since the Columbine shooting, let's see how the kids are doing. Quote from kid, "dude that was five months ago, leave me F****** alone." Next day, same news crew is there to cover the latest. Same kid,"Didn't I tell you yesterday to F****** leave me alone. Now get away, before i go crazy" Next day's headline, "Columbine tragedy may happen again.") Do we really need a play by play coverage of what Elian had for breakfast?

They should put it all into its own section, so people who don't give a damn can throw it away without having to miss the news that really affects them, instead of weeding through four sections (including the sports section and how this Elian Sh** affects our cuban baseball players, who are quoted as,"Goddammit, I'm a baseball player, it's opening day, and we have a new stadium. Shouldn't that be on the front page, instead of some damn kid and his dad?" Next day's headline, "Martinez: Shouldn't that be on the front page... kid and his dad?") Take yesterday's paper, front page: The RAID!, section B(local): How local people are affected by this decision, section C(sports): Cuban baseball players say prayer for Elian, Section D(business): How Clinton's support for Castro can boost the economy.

Sorry, I just am really pissed off. The news media is beginning to become less credible than "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart", and I want to hear nothing of this crap, nothing about Columbine the year after, the latest spin-off of Who wants to be a Millionare, Is OJ guilty (Goddammit, it's been five F****** years, get over it), and the F****** Spartans (Ya, they won a month ago, let's focus on baseball season now, or at least the playoffs in the NBA and NHL)

News media should have limits on one day storys, or at the very least once a week. any more than that, and people really start to get sick. 24 hour coverage (Yes, I'm including CNN) is too much, and can incite riots (Which is why they needed to raid the house like it was a Crackhouse).

Now that I've got that off my chest, I feel a lot better.

-The Great Saiyanman

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

He'd be better off as a star than a normal kid in Cuba. As a star, he might have a chance of actually getting enough to eat, and not being sent to the fields to work his butt off earning his free education. Not to mention the possibility of being sold as a mercenary to S. America or what have you. 'Course, he'd be infinitely better off being poor here...

And I feel compelled to point out that you have no evidence that Juan Migel really IS the father of Elian. A DNA test would appear to be in order.

Another thing: you guys are fooling yourselves into thinking there's some moral equivalency between the US and Cuba. THERE IS NOT. It is the difference between freedom and slavery. Pure and simple.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

To bring up another point, it's perfectly obvious to me, even with my poor eyesight, that that picture of the gun clearly shows that it was not pointed anywhere near Elian's head. You can see the hole in the barrel. You couldn't, if it was pointed in the direction they claimed.

And you know, there are a LOT of Cuban expatriates, and yet I don't see them doing anything USEFUL about the hated Castro regime... I mean, shouldn't there be some movement among these people to actually DO something to help their poor oppressed relatives in Cuba, if conditions are all that bad? And shouldn't this all-fired-up anti-castro US government help? I mean, here's a crate of AK-47's, now get back in the boats, go on a little ride, and fight for your own country, why dontcha? Then little Elian can go home AND grow up free!

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

I know as much as you do, Sol, unless you've taken a slightly illegal trip at some point. Everything I've said comes from Castro himself or people who used to live in Cuba and are unrelated to this case. Your reasons for ignoring my claims are flawed.

And I'm still waiting for an answer on exactly how Reno has the authority to remove children from their homes without authorization. I'm under the impression that she's basically the country's lawyer, nothing more.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

However, when it comes to ignorance, I have a bit of a masochistic streak.

So, let's deal with a few things, shall we? First of all, according to the Constitution, the job of the executive branch of the government is to enforce such laws as are made by Congress. The President organizes such agencies as are seen necessary to accomplish this constitutionally mandated task. One of these agencies, in fact the one whose primary task is to see to the enforcement of the criminal justice system, is the Department of Justice. At its head is a person known as the Attorney General. Ever hear of the FBI? It is a Federal law enforcement agency. Guess who its ultimate boss below the President is? The Attorney General.

Now, this next part might gall you, but, so what? In this sort of situation, custody reverts to the surviving parent. It has in uncounted numbers of similar cases since who knows when. Unfortunately, few of those children came from nations with ultra-powerful lobbys living inside the United States. We've sent Haitian children back without so much as a how do you do because A.) That's the agreed upon international law, and B.) There is no well-off Haitian emigrant community in the U.S.

Omega, you have in the past shown yourself to be in favor of a rather extreme form of isolationism for the United States. That's fine, so far as it goes. But then you turn around and essentially advocate that the U.S. go through the world and steal children from every nation that we don't like. The question is simple: Does the United States have the right to remove children from their parents because we disagree with their politics? The answer is no. And yet the implication you give is that the United States is only limited in what it can do to those of us thinking "right thoughts", and should have free reign over the rest of the world.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

I don't have many set views when it comes to foreign policy, actually, but I'm hardly isolationist. I just don't believe we should stick our noses in other people's internal affiars.

As for international law, what's the law when the surviving parent is a citizen of a country where he can NOT legally have custody? I seriously doubt there's any precident in that case. So in this situation, one parent is dead, and the other is unable to take custody. Who, then, gets the child? I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess the closest relative that IS able to take custody, which in this case, is exactly where he was until this week.

You could also make the case that Cuba is an inherantly abusive environment if you wanted, and since Castro wouldn't allow inspection, a judge might agree.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

That was Janet Reno a few weeks back. She's apparently picked up Al's habit of flip-flopping.

Another thing: this raid was unnesecary. Reno claims it was, because the family had denied previous orders to turn over the child. Problem: any order to turn over a child, without court backing such as a warrant, has no legal weight, and as such SHOULD be ignored. The justice department had no such warrant until approximately twelve hours before the raid.

Sol:

Tell me: are you trying to be difficult, or are you really this obtuse? This is not a case of a different belief system. There is not some grand moral equivalency. This is a case of sending a child back to a dangerous and harmful situation, which is the RESULT of that belief system. If a parent had been known to give their children hardly enough to eat, use them as slave labor, and then SELL them as mercenaries, would you send another kid into their custody? It would seem so, because that is exactly what you'd be doing with Elian by sending him back to the custody of the Cuban state.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 24, 2000).]
 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
 

You've done absolutely nothing to convince me that you have the slightest trace of the scent of the trail of a clue.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

Thanks for the info, Frank. That's what I would have guessed.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

Omega, I've tried to impress this point upon you many times. The USA isn't heaven. All things are not equal, especially in international politics. And Castro isn't the devil in an army suit.

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

"In this sort of situation, custody reverts to the surviving parent. It has in uncounted numbers of similar cases since who knows when."

Me: "All children are wards of the Cuban state anyway."

This is from Castro's own statements, and those of refugees from Cuba that are unrelated to this case.

"As for international law, what's the law when the surviving parent is a citizen of a country where he can NOT legally have custody? I seriously doubt there's any precident in that case. So in this situation, one parent is dead, and the other is unable to take custody. Who, then, gets the child? I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess the closest relative that IS able to take custody, which in this case, is exactly where he was until this week."

---

Sol: "He's not a boy in Cuba anymore, he is an Image. An Icon. And he won't be able to escape that. That is the real tragedy here."

Me: "He'd be better off as a star than a normal kid in Cuba. As a star, he might have a chance of actually getting enough to eat, and not being sent to the fields to work his butt off earning his free education. Not to mention the possibility of being sold as a mercenary to S. America or what have you. 'Course, he'd be infinitely better off being poor here..."

---

"I have not seen a single source giving credence to what you claim that doesn't originate from the relatives in Miami."

"My claims that children are wards of the state in Cuba have been confirmed by Castro himself, along with everyone who's ever lived there. Castro has also stated that Elian will be sent to a deprogramming (read: brainwashing) center for some months if he returns."

---

Hardly ignoring your points...

What the kid wants isn't particularly important to the "abusive environment" argument. A kid could want to live with a father who abused his other kids, but I seriously doubt that a court would allow it.

Once again, Sol, you bring up a non-analagous situation. If Canada started taking kids from the US, aside from getting their butts kicked, they'd be removing children from the custody of PARENTS, when they have no evidence that those parents are abusive. In a similar situation between the US and Cuba, however, we'd be taking a kid away from the custody of a GOVERNMENT, which we have overwhelming evidence IS abusive. It's completely different.

Look, Sol, I'll make it rediculously simple:

The parental guardian is dead. The other parent is legally unable to recieve custody. I'm no lawyer, but it would seem that custody of the child, until otherwise decided by the courts, would probably go to whomever has de facto custody, but possibly the nearest relatives who ARE able to take custody, or the people whom the mother expressed she wished to have custody. In this case, that's all the same group of people. The people with custody articulated Elian's desire to obtain asylum, as would be their right. The law states that any Cuban that is physically present in American territory can apply for asylum, with no age limit on that law. Elian's guardians applied for asylum for him.

It's that easy, Sol. If you've got a problem with the logic or facts in that argument, please point it out.

And as for you, Daryus, the US may not be Heaven, but Cuba, by all reputable accounts, is about as close to Hell as you're likely to find on this planet.

Which, since Castro made it that way, WOULD make him the devil in an army suit.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Sol: Amen to your comments.

Saiyanman: Amen to your comments.

Omega: I sense a contradiction here. While you claim that we should not poke into other people's business, you make claims that the father should not have any custody over his son, and that Elian should not get sent back to Cuba for any reason whatsoever. Should we not poke in on who has custody of a 6-year old child?

We'll just see how the asylum hearing pans out. If Elian wins, then all these arguments will be moot. Though, a defection by the Elder Gonzalez would be a very nice coup-de-grace.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited April 25, 2000).]
 

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Frank's Home Page
"I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
 

Yeah, a defection would solve pretty much everything where Elian's concerned. But then there's the fact that Castro would kill Juan's parents. Sometimes you just can't win.

Beaches, Frank, aren't much fun if you don't have enough money to feed yourself. Survival before pleasure.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 25, 2000).]
 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
 

Their housing, such as it is, is provided by the government. Something like a two room garage is the average family home.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

It's not a paradise, nor is it the horrible place some propaganda will have you believe.

The people don't all beg for money. If anything, they want the fandangled nifty soaps and toilettries and stuff you get in U.S./Canadian hotel rooms. If they wanted food, they'd beg for money, no?
 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Castro would do that? How would you know?

That bad, huh? Forgive me for my lack of knowledge.

IIRC, Elian's grandparents tried to defect here on a visit to Washington, right?

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

 

Tell me, when was the last time the President of the US and/or the DOJ Head intervened personally in a custody battle involving an AMERICAN child?

Of course, Castro made the first public use of the boy as a political pawn, and isn't worth trusting a damn to do anything. Would he kill Juan's parents? Would his Russian idols have done anything less? This IS the man who threatened to leave Florida a wasteland before he left office, you recall (or maybe you don't recall.)

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

but YEAAAAA, my topic reached the number of 50, this calls for a big party!!!

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

I want to list everything Janet's done and ordered that warrants her arrest.

Entering a home without showing a warrant to the occupants.

Possibly obtaining a false warrant for said entry, which by some accounts is an arrest warrant for Elian, who has commited no crime.

Assuming control of a military base.

Not allowing Elian's lawyers to see him after he was arrested.

Toss in unnesecary use of force and possibly Waco as reasons to demand her resignation, and I begin to despise this administration even more, if that's possible. It's too bad the people of this country have had their heads in the sand for the past seven years.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

1.) Elian is a ward of the state.
2.) Custody reverts to the legal parent.
3.) Elian's father is not his legal parent.
4.) Therefore, his father should not get custody.

Even if we take these as all being true, we can easily see why the argument is unsound. If custody reverts to the legal parent, and Cuba is the legal parent, than by your own admission custody should revert to the Cuban government.

As to the rest of your rantings regarding Cuba, they're not really worth my time to address. Have you ever bothered to consider the fact that maybe the reason Juan Miguel doesn't want to flee Cuba is because he *gasp* likes it there? Oh, but of course anyone who even thinks about disagreeing with you and the revealed truth you carry around inside your skull must be evil, insane, or both. I understand.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Have you ever bothered to consider atrocious use of the english language?

There's no such thing as "the fact that maybe."

Use "the possibility that maybe," if you're using anything at all. Of course, once you admit you're talking about possibilities rather than facts, you open up a whole new can of worms. Yes, it's possible.

It's also possible that everybody in Cuba loves it there... but it isn't readily apparent, is it? Ask half of Miami.

It's also possible that people 'vacationing' in Cuba only see what they're supposed to, just as people vacationing in Disneyworld do. (I remember reading a nice National Geographic article a while back about Cuba's prostitution dens and child-labor sugarcane farms...)

It's also possible that the only reason there are ANY people left in Cuba is that there aren't enough boats, and that there ARE enough secret police to put a ghastly end to whomever in your family you end up leaving behind. (You'll notice the grandmas aren't along with the dad. Don't they want to see Elian sooo bad? Are they tired? Or weren't they allowed to come, because otherwise there'd be nothing to hold over anyone's head?)

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

quote:

---

Federal Troops Seize Neglected Child In Pre-Dawn Raid
YPSILANTI, MI--Acting under orders from U.S. Health And Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala, a battalion of heavily armed federal officers seized custody of neglected 9-year-old Jeffrey Boyd in a dramatic pre-dawn raid of his Ypsilanti home Monday. "Jeffrey is finally safe and out of harm's way," Shalala said of Boyd, whose parents were written up by Michigan's Department of Child and Family Services last month for "failure to consistently provide proper supervision and nutritious meals." Shalala added that the extreme measures were regrettable, but were necessary to enforce the law.

The Onion -America's Finest News Source, April 26, 2000

---

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

I was specifically addressing Omega's accusations that Cuba is some sort of ninth circle. That may very well be. (Of course, you seem to imply that I'm basing my views on information brought back by tourists. Apparently I need to make my posts more interesting, as it has become necessary for you to fabricate things for me to say.) It really doesn't change the issue. Nor do your examples of the hidden horrors of the island. Perhaps we should ask German tourists whether they'd rather travel to Miami or Havana? Explore the Miami Beach Ecstasy scene?

And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

First off, the post in its entirety was not directed towards you. Someone ELSE made the statement about tourists, and it needed commented on. I should have made that clearer.

As for the rest, I was merely attacking evident doublespeak, 'fact' when the truth is 'possibility.' Which, as everyone knows, I do all the time, particularly in religious threads.

And pointing out that each side in this debate has potentially dubious information, as neither of the speakers here has, to my knowledge, lived in Cuba recently. (although the only person I know who ever spent any appreciable length of time in Cuba was a kid I roomed with for a semester in my junior college, an Equadorian, who described it as 'a hole' -- but I couldn't stand him, either.)

However, given the recent articles I've read about the Cuban economy, social situation, and prospects, I'd have to say that Cuba is a bit closer to Third World Country than it is to Worker's Paradise.
After all.. here, distributing pamphlets saying you hate OUR leader gets you a fan club, or at worst, a reputation as a kook. Doing it THERE, about Castro, gets you 20 years in jail.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Of course Juan might like it there, but then WHY? What in the world in a place like Cuba would make it worth staying in when offered what he was offered to stay in a place orders of magnitude better in every measurable respect?

I listen to Rush because he is RIGHT, Daryus, and becuase he gives info that you can't get anywhere else. For instance, did you know that when Elian first arrived, EVERYONE in the Clinton administration was saying how great it was that he was here, and how much better a life he would have. But then, for no apparent reason, they ALL flip-flopped. And no one noticed! Also, no one is pointing out that Reno had to lie to get the warrant to enter the Gonzales home, she had to go to a magistrate unfamiliar with the case, she did not display the warrant before having the door kicked in, the warrant was the same kind of warrant that would have been used were Elian evidence of drug smuggling, that Elian is being denied his constitutional right to access to his lawyers, that, as far as I know, the Gonzales' in Miami still have legal custody, and that, assuming Elian is Juan's son at all, he's an illegitimate child, as the parents were divorced in '91 (meaning the laws regarding custody change). Did you know ANY of that? And did you actually read the editorial, or just react to the family name?

Funny, Sol, I thought Baloo was the oldest one here...

First:

Another difference between my data and Sol's is that mine comes from people who don't have a proverbial gun to their heads. The law in Cuba states that disemination of enemy propaganda carries a fourteen year sentance. Meaning that if you don't say what Fidel tells you to say, you're toast. Of course, in a dictatorship as Cuba's, Castro could have you shot if he so chose. The law is basically there so Castro won't have to deal with each case personally.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Dude, no offence, but how old are you?

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
No I'm Spartacus!

And as you'd know if you actually read the thread, Mucus, I've said that anyone in Cuba'd be better off here, but they're not under our jurisdiction. Elian is.

"Afterall, how could there ever be any country in the world better than the US?"

Name a better one.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Just out of curiosity, which part of the USA is 'magnitudes' better? Stop being so damn parochial. Oh by the way, I suggest you get out more, try living in the now. Talk to people and attempt to apply these magnificent theories of yours in real life. Then observe the consequences. Take that on as your pet project.

You know, come to think of it, Santa does exist.

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

In fact, should children receive any toys, on those special occasions that parents get to visit them in the Cuban Kid Concentration / Re-Education camps (they are afterall wards of the state and can therefore not live with family), those toys are wrested from the tiny little hands by Communist "Toy Squads" at which time they are delivered to Castro's palatial digs. He is rumored to enjoy stomping on each package one at a time till it is flat...at which time it is given back to the broken hearted child.

Yes, if only Santa could visit Cuba, it would be a happier place indeed.

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

quote:

---

"Afterall, how could there ever be any country in the world better than the US?"

Name a better one.

---

In whose opinion? Mine? Somebody from Sweden? Australia? England? Mexico? Bulgaria? Russia? Spain? Denmark?

I don't think the US is the best country in the world. You do. I don't live there. You do. I think Canada is the best country in the world. You don't live there. I do. Objectiveness is so passe.

Your woefully misconstrued opinions of Cuba are quite humerous indeed. You seem to think it's a vile, pithy hell-hole in which the populace (Those that do not die of typhoid fever) has to eat their own feces in order to survive (That is, of course, if they have the ability to eat, and haven't had their digestive system sold to mercenaries for money to buy nuclear devices in order to bomb the capitalist pig-dogs into submission.)

Have you actually been to Cuba? How are you so abso-fucking-lutely, positively certain that Cuba is quite literally hell on earth? How do you know that your views on Cuba are correct, and not a result of ignorance? The same type of ignorance that leads morons to believe we use dogsleds as a primary means of travel up here in Canada.

------------------
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

Now, no one has bothered to ask which Fidel Castro...

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

God bless Malson Canadian for that wonderful commercial!

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

Sol, which Fidel Castro did you go to school with?

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Ultra Magnus: You may think that Canada is the best country in the world. Even though I am a Canadian, I beg to differ. I simply try not to take too much pride in that.

Blue: It's MOLSON!!!!

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited April 28, 2000).]
 

Note, those of you only reading this, how quickly we went from a discussion of the legal issues to a raging diatribe against a radio talk-show host (incidentally, I don't listen to Rush, I don't agree with him, and I own a book that points out numerous time he was wrong).

This is a variation on the ad hominem argument and guilt by association, tactics rejected by civilized debators since the time of Socrates... but still used by both politicians and television preachers today.

Nota also, that not one word was said in response to any of the legal questions raised in Omega's post.

Note the repeated refrain of 'how do YOU know what Cuba is like?' by people who aren't any more likely to know themselves. (Incidentally, I'd bet Canada is orders of magnitude better to live in than Cuba, either, but our opponents are thinking we mean 'better' in a narrow nationalistic way, rather than 'better' in a income-per-capita, freedom of speech, religion, and association, economic opportunity way, in which Cuba is outclassed by nearly every democracy/republic in every hemisphere, with the possible exception of the republics still struggling to come out from 75 years of former Soviet Rule -- and at least THEY can protest the way things are going now.

Or to put it simply, Given: (Democracy/Republic > Dictatorship)
Cuba = Dictatorship
USA, Canada, Germany, Costa Rica = Democracy/Republics

Therefore
USA, Canada, Germany, Costa Rica > Cuba.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Prove it.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
This is an audio signature. Download audio
 

R. A. Hienlien

At least, I think that's how it goes. Close enough.

------------------
"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob

Forgive me, Daryus, but that's the stupidist thing I've ever heard you say. How exactly can you "blindly listen" to someone? (And no aural medium jokes, please.) Just because I listen to him doesn't mean I agree with him on everything, for the simple reason that he said it. For example, he's pro-death penalty, whereas I'm not. And you didn't respond to my point that I get info from him that no one else supplies. That alone is a valid reason to listen.

"Oh by the way, I suggest you get out more, try living in the now. Talk to people and attempt to apply these magnificent theories of yours in real life. Then observe the consequences. Take that on as your pet project."

Hey, I'm going into politics, remember?

"Your woefully misconstrued opinions of Cuba are quite humerous indeed. You seem to think it's a vile, pithy hell-hole in which the populace (Those that do not die of typhoid fever) has to eat their own feces in order to survive (That is, of course, if they have the ability to eat, and haven't had their digestive system sold to mercenaries for money to buy nuclear devices in order to bomb the capitalist pig-dogs into submission.)"

Exaguration is such a wonderful thing.

"How do you know that your views on Cuba are correct, and not a result of ignorance?"

You might want to start actually reading what I say before arguing with it. Once again: my statements come from Castro himself, or people who lived in Cuba. I'd say that my sources are quite likely to be accurate.

"all this seems to be hypocritical when we treat Cuba as "hell on earth", but we fail to give China the same treatment."

Gotta agree here. I'd treat China the same way as Cuba. 'Course, I'm not president...

First:

"I own a book that points out numerous time he [Rush] was wrong"

I've read that one. You might be interested to know that most of the "errors" pointed out in said book were either jokes, or because Rush's sources were inaccurate. There were some honest mistakes in there, however. If reduced to the actual errors on Rush's part, it'd be down to a few pages. In twelve years on the radio, one year on TV, two books, and a long-running newsletter, that's pretty darned good. Just so you know...

I'm beginning to really enjoy having you as an ally, First. A person who makes logical arguments, with access to scads of information. What more could I ask for?

Oh, I know. An opponent that's the same way.

Now would anyone care to respond to the points I raised while we were still on topic, or will you conceed the debate?

On Democracy:

"Democracy is good. I say this because other systems are worse."
- Jawaharlal Nehru

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time."
- E. B. White

"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
- Oscar Wilde

"Democracy is a government where you can say what you think even if you don't think."

"Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."
- G. B. Shaw

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

And I said this with the backing from all the nations from the UN for five straight years.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

------------------
Frank's Home Page
This is an audio signature. Download audio
 

I think Muffinland is the best place to live.
People...live in muffins!
*looks around, sees that nobody gets obscure reference and leaves*

------------------
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
This is an audio signature. Download audio
 

US military advances were countered by heavy resistances from the Canadian RCMPs stationed along the border.

Highly unlikely ^0^

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

But let's not start that again.

So, can we stop the Canada bashing and get back to Elian?

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

We could go back to Elian, but I think by now it is obivious just how far apart our orbits are on this issue. You're at the North Pole, we're hovering over the South. I can see us running around in circles yet again.

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

------------------
"One more day before the storm
At the barricades of freedom!
When our ranks begin to form
Will you take your place with me?"
--Enjolras, "One Day More," Les Miserables

 

It is a serious matter.

"and absolutely sure you're right"

And the reason for this is that I have logic, law, and reliable sources on my side, whereas you havn't demonstrated the same.

"attempt to apply these magnificent theories of yours in real life. Then observe the consequences"

That's what I was refering to when I pointed out that I was going into politics.

"just because you want to become a politician doesn't mean that you have any real link with the woes of those who check in their time sheets every day and struggle to pay off a mortgage."

Yeah, the reason I have a link to families like that is because mine IS ONE.

"I can see us running around in circles yet again."

How 'bout this: we do a real debate. I've stated my logic chain. Now you try to find a hole in it, and I try to defend it. Or you could even state your logical position, and I could attack it, too. What a novel idea, to attack someone's position, rather than them personally.

Tora:

"But because his father is in Cuba, does that mean he'll never see his father again?"

Well, since Castro's regime will likely fall before either of their deaths (he is over 70, after all), I'd say no. 'Course, that depends on what'd happen afterwards.

"On another note, numerous Cubans who try to get into the U.S. are deported without so much as a peep from the media"

Funny, the law states that any Cuban that's here can apply for asylum. If I'm not mistaken, something like 30 Cubans arrived some weeks ago.

"So if you think we oughtta keep all Cuban children who come here, shouldn't we keep all their parents (i.e. all adults), too?"

If they want to stay, yes. But how often does a Cuban come here NOT wanting to stay?

"For that matter, if we're supposed to treat China the same way, shouldn't we take in all illegal Chinese immigrants, too?"

Well, first, we're not talking about illegal immigrants. The law states that they can stay. Second, I'm not completely sure about the exact wording of the code, but I believe it may say that all aliens who arrive here, whatever their source, may apply for asylum. Whether they recieve it or not is governed by other laws, I presume.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Since Castro came to power, 1 million of the 8 million pre-Castro inhabitants of Cuba have emigrated to other countries.

(Enchantment of the World: Cuba, Children's Press, 1987)

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Annual gross domestic products for Caribbean Countries:
Mexico: $383.5 billion
Guatemala: $18.2 billion
Cuba: $16.5 billion
Dominican Republic: $15.7 billion
El Salvador: $11.7 billion
Jamaica: $3.9 billion
Costa Rica: $9.9 billion
Panama: $9.5 billion
Honduras: $4.8 billion
Haiti: $2.6 billion
Nicaragua: $2.2 billion

***

Cuba
Population: 11,096,395
Population growth rate: 0.4% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 12.9 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 7.38 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.52 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 7.81 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.78 years
male: 73.41 years
female: 78.3 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 1.58 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Mexico
Population: 100,294,036 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.73% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 24.99 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 4.83 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -2.84 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 24.62 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 72 years
male: 68.98 years
female: 75.17 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.85 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Guatemala
Population: 12,335,580
Population growth rate: 2.68% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 35.57 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 6.8 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.93 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 7.81 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.78 years
male: 73.41 years
female: 78.3 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 1.58 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Dominican Republic
Population: 8,129,734
Population growth rate: 1.62% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 25.97 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.66 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -4.14 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 42.52 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.07 years
male: 67.86 years
female: 72.4 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 3.03 children born/woman (1999 est.)

El Salvador
Population: 5,839,079 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 26.19 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 6.2 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -4.66 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 28.38 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.02 years
male: 66.7 years
female: 73.5 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.99 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Jamaica
Population: 2,652,443 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 0.64% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 20.22 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.39 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -8.39 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 13.93 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.62 years
male: 73.22 years
female: 78.13 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.26 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Costa Rica
Population: 3,674,490 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.89% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 22.46 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 4.16 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: 0.63 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 12.89 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 76.04 years
male: 73.6 years
female: 78.61 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.76 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Panama
Population: 2,778,526 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 21.69 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.14 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.22 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 23.35 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 74.66 years
male: 71.91 years
female: 77.51 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.54 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Honduras
Population: 5,997,327 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.24% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 30.98 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 7.14 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.46 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 40.84 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 64.68 years
male: 63.16 years
female: 66.27 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 3.97 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Haiti
Population: 6,884,264 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 32.55 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 13.97 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -3.26 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 97.64 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 51.65 years
male: 49.53 years
female: 53.88 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 4.59 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Nicaragua
Population: 4,717,132 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.84% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 35.04 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.6 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.06 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 40.47 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 67.08 years
male: 64.7 years
female: 69.56 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 4.14 children born/woman (1999 est.)

***

Foreign Investment in Cuba (in millions of dollars)
Canada: $600
Mexico: 450
Italy: 387
Spain: 100
France: $50
Great Britain: 50
Chile: 30
Brazil: 20

***

Looks like it may not be such a rotten place after all. And as to Juan Miguel's decision to stay in his homeland, Cuba, bear in mind that during the American Civil War there were numbers of slaves that fought with the Confederacy against the Union. They did so to protect the South, the region they considered their homes, against what they felt to be Northern encroachment. That fight included protecting the social system (at least in the short term) that went along with the region.

The idea of home, of place, can be very strong. Juan Miguel's wish to return to his home in Cuba with his son is valid.

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited April 30, 2000).]
 

Therefore, why an immortal (as portrayed in Highlander by my knowledge) ever decay in C-14 as long as they were alive?

------------------
No I'm Spartacus!

Well, since those stats don't really say anything about the quality of life in Cuba, I'd have to disagree with that conclusion based on the posted facts.

"The idea of home, of place, can be very strong. Juan Miguel's wish to return to his home in Cuba with his son is valid."

Ah, thank you, Jay! Finally, someone makes a legitimate argument in response to one of mine!

OK, so we've come up with two possibilities for Juan's saying that he wants to take his son back to Cuba: his mother is being held at gunpoint; it's his home, and so, regardless of all it's flaws, he still wants to live there.

Both are reasonable, and at the moment we can't proove either, so...

But I do wonder. In the case of those slaves you mentioned, your point was that the way of life they were forced to live was horrible, but they had to defend it to defend their homes. I wonder, though, that, if given the choice, any of those slaves would choose to have their children live with them in slavery instead of allowing them to live with someone else in freedom.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

This prove that Cuba probabaly have a decent healthcare system, children are getting their food instead of starving and the general population are probabaly feeling "okey" with their lifestyle, after all, a unhappy person usually don't live that long anyway.

I'd say for a communist country, Cuba's not doing too bad.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

While in US or other G7 countries, individuals earn more money, but in the same time, they also spend way more. A citizen in Cuba makes less money then a citizen in US, but in Cuba, you probabaly don't need that much to get on with your life.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

I would also call into question the validity of the stats. I'd like to know how they were obtained, if possible. It seems rather odd to me that a country with horrible medicine (regardless of their health care plans) would have a longer life expectancy that what I seem to recall as average. I wouldn't be surprised if these are just numbers Castro feeds people...

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

I'm also tempted to comment on how when I think Limbaughfacts are either grossly misrepresented or outright lies, I'm letting my bias shine through, but when you do it you're an upstanding avenger for truth. But I doubt that would get us anywhere.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

My topic broke the 100th messages!

I'm sooooo happy that I could kill myself right here right now!

........On another thought, maybe I'll just go have some ice cream and cookies.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

"Well, if a person can live till almost 80 years of age, I doubt that the quality of life can be as bad as "hell","

Sol, with my

"I hope you realize that what you guys are saying is akin to the people who go through old slave quarters, saying, "You know, slaves didn't really have it so bad, for the time." What they have or don't have is irrelevant. They're still slaves!".

And DT would smite you for saying it was a communist nation.

"I'm also tempted to comment on how when I think Limbaughfacts are either grossly misrepresented or outright lies, I'm letting my bias shine through, but when you do it you're an upstanding avenger for truth. But I doubt that would get us anywhere."

You're learning.

"Also, some news for you. Cubans are not slaves."

Let's see: children are all wards of the state, Castro sells his people as mercenaries, you have to work your butt off in his sugar fields to earn your free education, and if you don't do what he says, you get shot. Sounds like slavery to me.

"Ever heard of a benevolent dictator?"

A benevelant dictator is still a dictator

"I don't see you going after Lee Kwan Yu."

Which is because he is irrelevant to this conversation. We're talking about Cuba, not Singapore.

I'm unable to locate an online CIA handbook. They do sell them, though. If you can guarentee me it's there, Daryus, I'll accept the stats unless/until circumstances change.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

quote:

---

But I do wonder. In the case of those slaves you mentioned, your point was that the way of life they were forced to live was horrible, but they had to defend it to defend their homes. I wonder, though, that, if given the choice, any of those slaves would choose to have their children live with them in slavery instead of allowing them to live with someone else in freedom.

---

Apparently you missed my point. The idea was not to discuss the rightness or wrongness of slavery, rather to point out the fact that there were slaves, members of the Southern social system considered by most whites to be inferior, who took up arms (and in more cases shovels and axes) to protect their home and the cultural environment that they grew up with and lived in. The South was as much their home as it was the slave holders.

If one reads about slavery, one can see how terrible the system was and how de-huminizing it was. However, it is important not to miss the fact that for most slave owners, there was a certain familial feeling for slaves. Many owners considered their slaves to be something of an extened family. Sothern slave holders often pointed to the fact that in the nothern industrial system the factory workers were little more than "wage" slaves themselves. Workers to be used and discarded once their usefullness to the factory was over. They would finish the point be saying that slaves were to be protected and cared for in the waning years of their lives, and not thrown into the street.

As a result, one does not see mass migrations of blacks Northward till several years into a failed reconstrutcion program. Again it was only at the point where former slaves began to understand that the reconstruction movement had been usurped by white power organizations such as the Klan that they began to move away from their homes. In a very real way, after the American Civil War was over, there was great disappointment among blacks in the South that one of the aims of the war was to promote social justice in the region was given over to a quick national reconciliation.

****

And as to one of the reasons why I posted such a long list comparing the other Caribbean Countries, consider that if our young Hero was from, say Haiti, a "free" country (Haiti is listed as a "repulbic" in the CIA World Factbook 1999), conservative types would have no problem sending him back to live with his father there.

Regardless of the fact that Haiti has higher:
birth rate: 32.55 births compared 12.9
infant mortality rate: 97.64 deaths compared to 7.81

and Haiti has lower:
Life expectancy: 51.65 years compared to 75.78
lower GDP: $2.6 billion compared to $16.5 billion

How about we look at Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write.

Cuba: 95.7%
Mexico: 89.6%
Guatemala: 55.6%
Dominican Republic: 82.1%
El Salvador: 71.5%
Jamaica: 85%
Costa Rica: 94.8%
Panama: 90.8%
Honduras: 72.7%
Haiti: 45%
Nicaragua: 65.7%

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

Although, as a glutton for punichment (and because I can't be arsed checking myself) what are the literacy figures for the UK, US, Canada and Australia? Just for comparison.

And I'll have you know that I'm REALLY smarting over missing the "Name on ecountry better than the US" comment. Bugger it to tarnation.

------------------
*Amusing quote not available, please call back later*

 

US: 97%
UK: 99%
Canada: 97%
Australia: 100% (that's what is says, not counting the Dingos of course)
China: 81.5%
Jordan: 86.6%
Morocco: 43.7%
Papua New Guinea: 72.2%
Russia: 98%
Switzerland: 99%
Turkey: 82.3%
Vietnam: 93.7%
Yemen: 38%
Zimbabwe: 85%

Any more I can do for ya?

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited May 02, 2000).]
 

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

>"However, it is important not to miss the fact that for most slave owners, there was a certain familial feeling for slaves. Many owners considered their
slaves to be something of an extened family... (extraneous deleted)... saying that slaves were to be protected and cared for in the waning years of their lives, and not thrown into the street."

*chuckle*
And you believe this unquestioningly??
I REALLY need to know what the source of this is.. was it out of some slavery apologist's book, or did you have a civics teacher from the deep south?

Would you sell a member of your extended family 'down the river'? Would you sell a member of your extended family's child to another person for a few bucks?

I mean, of COURSE the slaveowners would say that stuff. Today we call this 'rationalization.'

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

This has gone on long enough. Shut the hell up already. Talking about it is one thing, but for over a F****** week?????????????

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

We're even MORE lucky when that thing actually turns out to be something substantial.

You know, generally when someone tells me to stop talking about something, I get suspicious. What are they trying to stop me from thinking about? What is it that they don't want to occur to me?

Not that that's happening here, of course. At least, I hope not.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
 

There's an idea, instead of just whining.

------------------
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
 

OK, anyone responding to my arguments on Elian (I keep wanting to type "Elain")?

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

quote:

---

Notwithstanding these considerations which must weaken their respect for the laws of property, we find among them numerous instances of the most rigid integrity, and as many as among their better instructed masters, of benevolence, gratitude and unshaken fidelity. The opinion, that they are inferior in the faculties of reason and imagination, must be hazarded with great diffidence.

---

quote:

---

There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. This quality is the germ of all education in him. From his cradle to his grave he is learning to do what he sees others do. If a parent could find no motive either in his philanthropy or his self love, for restraining the intemperance of passion towards his slave, it should always be a sufficient one that his child is present. But generally it is not sufficient. The parent storms, the child looks on, catches the lineaments of wrath, puts on the same airs in the circle of smaller slaves, gives a loose to the worst of passions, and thus nursed, educated, and daily exercised in tyranny, cannot but be stamped by it with odious pecularities.

---

The above letter had the intent to clarify Jefferson's position on race in general, but it also served as a primer for owners on how to treat slaves. In other words the wise owner was a kind owner.

The relationship between owner and slave was intricate, and what I stated about "something" of a familial relationship is true and not apologetic about the system of slavery. Stating that some owners were more kind than others or that some owners subscribed to a form of paternalism in no way diminishes the fact that slavery based on race as it was in the United States was an inherently evil system.

The slave system necessitated that slaves were to do the hard manual labor. Labor that they did not necessarily want to do and labor that someone else benefited from.

It is important to keep in mind the word is still "owner." It is not friend. There were many slave holders who viewed their slaves as simple children or even more correctly as animals to be cared for and fed including the slaves old age. But always, slaves were viewed as property.

I suggest you take a look at the following:

Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made
by Eugene D. Genovese

The Ruling Race: A History of American Slaveholders
by James Oakes

The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South
by Kenneth M. Stampp

Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877
by Eric Foner. Paperback

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited May 03, 2000).]
 

CIA, SHMEE-I-A.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi