two for Liam...
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/1/20/115342
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/10/203335

And one for everybody...
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/1/17/105209

Still think gun control would reduce crime here? Certainly didn't in these two countries.

And to demonstrate my point about the consistant use of firearm registration programs, this from the second article:

"They [the Australian police] have been using previous registration and firearm license lists to check for lapses and confiscate non-surrendered firearms."

And we await the fallout...
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 13, 2000).]
 

------------------
"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 13, 2000).]
 

So?

------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".

Wise, wise words.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas
 

They banned HANDCUFFS??? How do the police hold their criminals?

Oh, wait, the police aren't normal humans, they have superpowered resistance to bad thoughts... yeah, that's it...

No handcuffs... the light bondage scene must be very dull indeed...

And Bowie knives? That's practically destroying the whole "outback" way of life, innit?

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

What criminals? Remember, with no guns around, there IS no crime. Oh, wait...

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Fair enough, but go to the report on 4509.0 Crime and Safety, Australia for 1998 -Link-
It clearly says "A previous Crime and Safety Survey was conducted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics in 1993 and shows that, where data can be compared, the prevalence of victimisation
for offences were similar for 1993 and 1998.

The 1998 prevalence rates for household break-ins and attempted break-ins were slightly higher than the rates in 1993 but the differences are not statistically significant. ...

In 1998 the prevalence rate for sexual assault for females aged 18 years and over was slightly lower than the 1993 figure, but the difference is not statistically significant.

Most important however...

It is not possible to compare the personal crimes of robbery and assault between the 1993 and 1998 surveys due to changes in the questions used in the survey."

Interesting...researching onwards...

------------------
Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.

[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 14, 2000).]
 

Its curious that NewsMax picked exactly the two years after the gun ban for their numbers. What happened afterwards?
Well, from 1998 to 1999 attempted murder dropped 7.5%, manslaughter dropped 17%, driving causing death dropped 25%, robbery dropped 5.1%, blackmail and extortion dropped 5.9%...etc....read it for yourself. And you might be asking why did the number of murders go up? 12 victims of crimes were discovered at once and two murder/suicides involving 9 people.. The most important thing is that total crimes dropped 4.3%

Still looking for newer statistics.....

------------------
Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.

From NewsMax:
But in countries with strict gun control, such as England and Canada,criminals enter houses at will, without worrying whether anyone is home. The hot burglary rate in those countries is nearly 50 percent.

After studying 18 years' worth of crime statistics from around the United States, Lott concluded that "states experiencing the greatest reductions in crime are also the ones with the fastest growing percentages of gun ownership."

From Statistics Canada:

First, "Similarly, the number of "home invasions" reported by this sample dropped 17% between 1993 to 1996." http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/970730/d970730.htm

Secondly,
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/990721/d990721b.htm
"The crime rate, based on crimes reported by police, fell for the seventh consecutive year in 1998. The 4.1% drop resulted in the lowest rate in almost 20 years...Robberies committed with a firearm have decreased steadily since 1991, including a 3.5% drop in 1998. Robberies with a firearm accounted for 18% of all robberies in 1998, down from 25% ten years ago, and 37% 20 years ago.

Data from a sample of 94 police services, including Toronto, Montr�al and Vancouver, indicate that the presence of firearms in violent crime has declined steadily over the last five years, from 6.5%
of all violent incidents in 1994 to 4.8% in 1998."

And one final interesting point:
"The majority of firearm-related deaths in Canada are a result of suicide. Each year there are about five times as many suicides involving firearms as homicides."

Hmmmm, so much for the argument that gun control wouldn't stop crime because hardened criminals wouldn't obey it. At least it would cut down on suicides. (And don't even try to prove that a "veteran suicide" exists)

------------------
Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.

[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 14, 2000).]
 

This confirms everything the NewsMax article said.

"where data can be compared, the prevalence of victimisation for offences were similar for 1993 and 1998."

All this indicates is that, assuming that ALL data can be compaired (definitely a questionable assumption), crime went down until '96, when they banned guns, when it started going back up to '93 levels, since according to the ABS, crime went up significantly between '96 and '98.

Regardless of whether their numbers went down somewhat in '99, they're still mich higher than before the gun ban in '96.

Interesting, that the 21 unusual murder victims supposedly account for the increased murder rate, even though without them, there'd still 321 murders, which is the '97 level, considerably higher than the '98 level. One wonders if those twelve discovered bodies were killed in '98, thus accounting for the oddly low levels that year.

Mucus: "Its curious that NewsMax picked exactly the two years after the gun ban for their numbers. What happened afterwards?"

Well, the stats for '99 weren't released 'til after those articles were written, for one thing.

It's also odd how the '98 numbers on the '96-'98 page don't match up with the '98 numbers on the '98-'99 page.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Even if we are going to ban guns, illegal fire arms are still going to be out there in the black market.

But there is one major difference, if we banned fire arms, and we're serious about reinforceing the issue, then instead of facing small-time-crooks sticking people up with a guns which they buy for less then a hundred bucks, they'll probably only have knifes because small-time-crooks don't have the money to get one.

Real mobs can still afford guns, but how many crime related fatality are done by the mobs compare to the one done by the small-time-crooks?

And man, if the government decided to take advantages of us, we don't stand a chance! It is ignorant for us to think that if we have guns, then we can stand up to professional army soldiers, not to mention that wars nowaday are not fought by infantry anymore.

------------------
If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?

If someone is threatening you with a knife, are YOU going to tell them "no"? Especially if you don't have a gun? Whether the criminal has a gun or a knife is irrelevant. He's still robbing you.

The entire point of this exercize is to show that eliminating guns makes crime WORSE. This is in complete oposition to what liberals would have you believe, saying that eliminating guns would reduce crime.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

As for what chance we'd stand against a government occupying force, I'd say a pretty darned good one. To go through every major US city simultaneously (so as not to give any advance warning) searching every home for weaponry would be impossible. The military simply doesn't have that many personel. Toss in the fact that the national guard would likely rebel in places, and they wouldn't stand a chance. Unless, of course, they KNEW where all the guns were because of registration programs, like in, say, Australia.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?

This has to be the dumbest question I've heard in a LONG time (no offence intended). To defend yourself and your property! Wouldn't you feel much safer holding a violent man at bay at ten feet than two?

"If a crook carried a knife, but doesn't know how to use it, then it'll be OUR advantage, not his."

Who said anything about the hypothetical crook not knowing how to use a knife? Besides, say someone's threatening you with a knife. Are you really gonna take a chance on whether he knows what he's doing? How quickly can you pull YOUR knife? Quickly enough to prevent him from stabbing you?

Guns are the best method of defending yourself. Period.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

And I know this may sound crazy, but surely the robber would have to be right next to you to be effective with a knife. And surely he'd have to hit you in the right spot if he wanted to kill you with said knife. And surely you'd also have to be standing still?

With a gun, a criminal can hold an entire room at bay. With a knife, he can only hold one person. Just.

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas
 

I live in a downtown area of a small (read <75,000 people) city in CT. It's close to the police station...really fairly uneventful. One night at 3 AM, I went to the local Food Bag down the street t'get more caffeine. As I left the parking lot & entered the shadows, a guy came up asking if I had any change. When I said no, he pulled a smallish knife on me & told me to give him my wallet.

Now...I'm right-handed, so my wallet was (obviously) in my right pocket. I had a bag with a 2-liter bottle of Diet Pepsi in my left hand. I lied, told the guy I was left-handed & was going to slowly move the bottle to my right hand so that I could get out my wallet. The INSTANT the bag was in my right hand, I swung it up & knocked the knife out of his hand. The return swing down cracked him on the head & knocked his ass on the ground. I went back into the store to tell them to call the cops, but when I went back out, he was gone.

The point? ANYTHING can be a weapon--a firearm, a knife, a pointy stick, a bottle of soda, a PEANUT. Crime won't ever go away, but I'd like it to be a little easier to FIGHT it.

And on a similar note, why are pro-gun people always against registration, but have no problems with (& usually dutifully & responsibly fill out the forms for) gun LICENSES? What's the difference, eh?

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

I have a nice little dagger made just for that kind of thing, if anybody wants to test that theory.

Just for fun...
Some startling statistics taken from Arkansas' (Clintonland) Benton County News Tribune on the 17th of Nov. 1999.

Number of physicians in the U.S. 700,000
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year 120,000
Accidental deaths per physician 0.171

Further...
Number of gun owners in the U.S. 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths per year all age groups 1,500
Accidental deaths per gun owner 0.0000188

Do we maybe need a seven-day waiting period for doctors?

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 14, 2000).]
 

Vainly trying to remember which psychologist said it, but it's far harder to stab someone to death than it is to shoot them. You're much closer, you have to do it in a way that you conect with them. It's a far harder thing to do than stand a few feet away and pull a trigger.

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
 

The cause of the rise was economic. In 1996-97 there was a little economc crisis called the Asian Economic Meltdown. *shock* This had a very adverse effect on our exports. Shite loads of people were laid off, and found themselves unable to meet their debts. (We got over that in a year an a half or so, and the economy is kicking along quite nicely at the moment BTW). So they turned to generating alternative forms of revenue. Now I won't say that the bulk of people did this, it would only be a small number who turned to crime. However the point stands. Any minor or even moderate rise in crime your rather questionable sources may claim there was can far more accurately be attributed to economic problems than to a shortage of weapons.

As for there being lists of who owns what, so what? These weapons are lethal, and thus should be kept checked for the safety of the general populace. Your suggestion of a govt using the lists to round up the people and disarm them is a rather 'out there' theory. I'd suggest that before you run for president you tone down the conspiracy theories just a little so they don't dump you in the loony bin with old Ronnie.

------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".

Wise, wise words.

I blame the Patriot. Those stupid flag-waving movies always get you Yanks excited, and it usually takes months before you've stopped blowing your own trumpets.

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited July 15, 2000).]
 

------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

Hey, it was a great movie. Let's see the UK put out anything as good.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas
 

December, 1999 issue, page 18. (You can check it out for yourself, if you've got Adobe and are prepared to wait a bit)
An excerpt:

"Vehicle Stops Involving Extremist Group Members"

"Recognizing the Signs of Extremism"

"Members of extremist groups may reveal their affiliations in a number of ways. First, the vehicles they drive often provide clues that can help officers prepare for potential danger before making a stop. Specifically, extremists' vehicles may sport bumper stickers with antigovernment or pro-gun sentiments..."

Typical "if at first you don't succeed, vilify your opponents" tactic. They're getting more obvious day-by day.

Personally, I think that the above posters don't like "The Patriot" because it potrays the Brits as less than perfect gentlemen... which they were. Okay, perhaps the movie took a bit of dramatic licence, but then again, we didn't mention a few things, too. F'rinstance... yesterday, in response to Patriot-bashing, one of our local radio personalities read on-air an actual letter from a British major to a friend back home in England during the occupation of New York, describing with great glee instances of murder of civilians and gang-rape of a young woman.

So bite me, revisionists.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 15, 2000).]
 

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
 

I'd call a seventy percent increase in armed robbery a little more than a minor to moderate increase.

"rather questionable sources"

No one has yet pointed out any inaccuracy NewsMax's reporting. And considering I'm now getting my numbers directly from your Bureau of Statistics, I'd suggest you drop the 'biased source' crap.

"Your suggestion of a govt using the lists to round up the people and disarm them is a rather 'out there' theory."

Are you saying that they DIDN't do exactly that?

"Australia, the rise in crime happened in spite of the guns being removed, not because of it."

Hmm, this sounds familiar. Where have I heard something like this before...

But let me make sure I ABSOLUTELY understand what your freedoms with guns now entail. Are you allowed to have any sort of firearm in your home? If so, what types, exactly? Are you allowed to carry your firearm into a public place?

And tell me, if your recession ended eighteen months ago, why is crime still markedly higher than before the ban?

Liam:

If you don't think Clinton would declare martial law if it suited his purposes, you don't know Clinton.

It's funny, how we've seen no objections to the Brittish statistics posted...

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

"Hmm....do I declare martial law today so I can get rid of all the guns, thus oppressing the right-wing masses & coming one step closer to my ultimate goal of becoming Grand High Poobah & Grand Wizard Plenipotentiary? Or do I hit on that fine piece of intern ass Monica Lewinsky & see if she'd be willing t'give my pork snorkel a toot?"

In his position, I'd've done the same thing.

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

[This message has been edited for stupid spelling errors made by Shik after too much sleep & not enough caffeine, XV-VII-MMDCCLIII AUC. HAIL CAESAR!]

[This message has been edited by Shik (edited July 15, 2000).]
 

Sorry. But you could always wait for one of the other Brits to post. Oh, wait, you've already scared them all off. Bravo.

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
 

Ah, so you DON'T care about the truth. I didn't think so...

"...you could always wait for one of the other Brits to post. Oh, wait, you've already scared them all off."

Yeah, I guess they finally realized that they couldn't win.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

And I, just speaking for myself, really hate to see it when discussion becomes "if you don't refute every one of my dotted i's I win." Intelligent discussion between intelligent people isn't about winning and loosing (of course having said that, you will now claim victory to build up your ego...or was that eggo). It's about bringing up points and talking about them in a rational manner. Someday you might understand that.

The very fact that Liam doesn't want to go and spend all day at the university library certainly brings up an interesing fact...he may have a life outside of the computer universe where people don't argue about the rightness or wrongness of shooting other people with farking guns every farking day!

So off to the pub with you Liam and lift one for me while you are there not talking about guns. Talk about girls or something interesting.

We've done guns to death in here.

What it comes down to is that some of folks think that guns are another appendage, something to stroke and clean like a second penis....and some of us other like to think that someday society might, just might move beyond the necessity to have your own personal arsenal. To paraphrase an evil red a journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step. None of the gun folks here seem willing to take any sort of first step toward any goal other than keeping a howitzer on the roof to repel black opps helos. Nor do some seem willing to recognize that there are other social problems that necessitate their desire to carry guns with them everywhere....little things like education levels and poverty. And corporations hijacking democracy too, there's a bit of a problem too but that's a thread with a whole different kind of ire.

Naw screw it say I, where did I put my 50 caliber?

Oh, and I'm also sick of this 'Clinton would declare martial law if'in his Arkansas ass could' crap. You haven't a scintilla of evidence so give up the Clinton hating and let him spend his last few months in office trying to take over Canada or someplace with no real value.

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 16, 2000).]
 

That is truly brilliant, Jay. But I think your comic talent will be wasted upon them. Pity.

Omega Said:

"Daryus: I'd call a seventy percent increase in armed robbery a little more than a minor to moderate increase."

70%? 70%? Which anally retentive moron came up with that figure?

"No one has yet pointed out any inaccuracy NewsMax's reporting. And considering I'm now getting my numbers directly from your Bureau of Statistics, I'd suggest you drop the 'biased source' crap."

Is it my imagination or are Newsmax facts and Limbaugh facts just about one and the same? Thus - crap. (Just in case you missed the insinuation).

"Your suggestion of a govt using the lists to round up the people and disarm them is a rather 'out there' theory. Are you saying that they DIDN't do exactly that?".

They rounded up some weapons, so what? Its not like we're suddenly living in a gulag. The more you prattle on about how every government is just out to enslave you, the more moronic and paranoid your entire stance sounds. Do you even understand the socio-economic conditions necessary to bring a dicatorial govt to power in a democratic state? I doubt it. Or as my friend says - Nyet.

"But let me make sure I ABSOLUTELY understand what your freedoms with guns now entail. Are you allowed to have any sort of firearm in your home? If so, what types, exactly? Are you allowed to carry your firearm into a public place?"

Yes you can have fire arms in your home. But they must be locked in a cabinet that meets certain safety specs. You may not own pump-action weapons, semi-automatic weapons or automatic weapons. Handguns need a specific handgun license.

Carrying firearms around in public? Are you fucking insane? Ok lets see. Aussies tend to get into fights pretty easily. So if we could all carry guns can you imagine the death toll oh wise one? You see, here we give each other a few bruises and a bit of a punch up. Over there, you just blow each others brains out. Tell me honestly, which system is better? Forget it, I'll answer. Ours.

Why would you need a weapon in public? Let me guess, when Clinton orders in the SS you'll use your trusty assault rifle to shoot a few M1-A1's or something? Get back to reality for a sec. You'd be obliterated. And remember, all dicators tend to come to power on a wave of popularity. You'd be hard pressed to do anything except die. Ye and yer militia.

"And tell me, if your recession ended eighteen months ago, why is crime still markedly higher than before the ban?"

Well first of all, there was no recession. Just a short term minor downturn. But it was enough. I'll point out that the relative crime rate to weapons related incidents in 60X higher per capita in the USA than in Aust. But I guess you'd just ignore that. Conveniently. And before you start on that population density crap, we have a higher average density then you do.

As for crime being 'markedly higher than before the ban', refer to my comment on Limbaugh facts.

"If you don't think Clinton would declare martial law if it suited his purposes, you don't know Clinton."

Oh and you are a close personal confidant? That's the kind of comment I'd expect from an overly passionate twat who mindlessly follows the words of the reverend, squad leader or any other smeghead who has been a part of his lifelong brainwashing. Kinda scary.

------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

To protect yourself against criminals who also have firearms in public.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited July 16, 2000).]
 

Way to go. Facts aren't important, as long as you get to call your opponent a smeg-head or a Limbaugh.

*applauds*

Oh, and...
>"I haven't the time or the inclination to go scurrying around my local library"

Guess what? I DO! (Of course, being a librarian and all helps) Oh, yes. Unlimited Access opens your eyes to the whole world. And it also helps you sort out the bullshit dogma from the actual evidence. On all sorts of arguments.

Oh, and I resent the implication that we "scurry." I do NOT scurry. BUGS scurry. I shuffle.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 16, 2000).]
 

I wonder if something more basic can suffice...

Global assumptions...
Assumption 1: There were no firearms offences before firearms were invented.
Assumption 2: There are firearms offences now that there are firearms.
Assumption 3: There are more firearms offences now in a world with many guns compared to the world which saw the first invention of a firearm. (Chinese rocket-powered arrows)

Now take one step away from that. Hypothetically, we gave everyone (across the board) guns. From your pet dog, children who don't understand the concept of death, criminals in prison, people in asylums, the psychopath who doesn't care if he lives or dies, and Hanson band. Can we at least agree that in this odd scenario, there would be more firearms-related offences than today?

Thus, if you plotted these data points on a nice graph, you'd notice a nice slanted line or a curve.

So at your two extremes, the scenario of total gun saturation has more gun-related offences than the scenario of no guns whatsoever.

Thus, how can you argue that increasing the number of guns will reduce gun-related crimes when its blatantly obvious that there are no gun related offences with no guns in a society? Are you actually and insanely trying to argue that there will be more gun-related offences when no guns are present?

Or are you, Omega, actually arguing something more along the lines like this. "In a society like the United States which is filled with NRA looneys, the incompetent US government will create more crime with their half hearted attempts at gun control since gun owners will react violently to losing their vaunted combination security blankets/ego-stimulators much like the grade school child who resists the well-meaning attempts by a teacher to remove his spitwad tube?"
.....if this long run-on sentence is what you are actually arguing, I'd have to whole-heartedly agree.

------------------
Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.

And you say I'M ranting. At least I try to have a rational argument. You know, point, counter-point? Or maybe you don't. This discussion is not over what you apparently think it is. It's over whether the government preventing it's people from having guns is a good or bad thing. I have posted evidence that it's unarguably bad.

But as for YOUR argument, no, civilization will NEVER develop beyond the point where people need to defend themselves. This is the same kind of idealism that leads people to believe that communism could actually work. Basic human nature prevents it. Humanity will always have its criminals and its power-mongers, so there will always be a need for self-defence.

And the reason I'm pounding that note over and over and over is that people don't seem to realize that it's the RIGHT FREAKIN' NOTE. What would it take to prove to you that gun control simply doesn't work? I have all the numbers right here.

Daryus:

"70%? Which anally retentive moron came up with that figure?"

Someone who works in your Australian Bureau of Statistics, apparently. I reference this yet again:
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/ABS%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/ab5039c379d8dfa8ca2568a90015499e!OpenDocument

Look in the first table you see, under "Armed Robbery". In '96, there were 6,256 armed robberies in Australia. In '98, there were 10,850. This is an increase of 73.43%. Or if you want to work with the RATES of robbery, the increase was 69.3 percent, from 34.2 to 57.9 per hundred-thousand.

"Is it my imagination or are Newsmax facts and Limbaugh facts just about one and the same?"

Well, considering that I've shown NewsMax's facts in this case, at least, to be right, well, then, that must mean Rush is right, too, doesn't it? And why do you guys keep flaming Rush when he has nothing to do with a discussion? It's kinda juvenile, you know.

As for the rest of your pointless flame, I think I'll just ignore it. There's not much real info there. Just a bunch of ad hominem attacks.

First:

"Think I'm gonna declare Jay and Liam Grand Masters of the ad-hominem and guilt by association argument styles."

I second that.

Mucus:

Why don't YOU pay attention to the numbers? They said that the numbers between '93 and '98 may not be comparable. And the numbers for '93 are irrelevant. The gun ban occured in '96 (maybe '97, not sure; somewhere thereabouts). If you check the statistics that I've posted *counts* three times now (twice from the ABS itself), you'll see that between '96 and '98, there was a 70% increase in armed robbery.

"Can we at least agree that in this odd scenario, there would be more firearms-related offences than today?"

'Course.

"So at your two extremes, the scenario of total gun saturation has more gun-related offences than the scenario of no guns whatsoever. Thus, how can you argue that increasing the number of guns will reduce gun-related crimes when its blatantly obvious that there are no gun related offences with no guns in a society?"

Ah, the two-dimentional reasoning of a liberal. This is the same kind of reasoning that refuses to grasp supply-side economics. You CAN NOT remove all the guns from a society. Brittian proved that. They tried, and failed. You also fail to figure in the lower number of instances of crimes related to OTHER weapons when there are more guns, which would help counter the number of gun related crimes. The optimum scenario is where the most responsible, adult civilians have guns, and the fewest criminals, loonies, and children have guns. Exactly what I'm going for.

*WARNING! Indirect ad hominem attacks follow! Proceed at your own risk! This is not intended to have any sort of impact on the remnants of the above argument.*

Too bad I can't find a liberal to argue with that actually has some desire to discover the truth, and has some idea how to make a rational argument. We could have fun.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Your response to Jay: "Basic human nature prevents it. Humanity will always have its criminals and its power-mongers, so there will always be a need for self-defence."

Or are you making the easy assumption that since your own basic nature is selfish and paranoid, everyone must automatically be as well?

Your response to Daryus: As anyone that has studied statistics knows, you absolutely must need a large sample of data in order to get accurate information. Small amounts of data can have wild fluctuations. The fact that you must unilaterally ignore the data before 1996 in order to support your argument obviously shows that.

Your response to First: "Think I'm gonna declare Jay and Liam Grand Masters of the ad-hominem and guilt by association argument styles."

Interesting notion considering in the next paragraph you immediately say "Ah, the two-dimentional reasoning of a liberal."

Funny, I never considered myself to be a liberal anyways. Considering my geographical location and social status you might find a big difference, case in point, I live in an area which elected conservatives to power...interesting.
But you immediately attach that label and attack that label rather than the argument.

And its also interesting that you trot out the tired old argument of supply-side economics. As anyone who has studied economics knows, this area is totally subjective.
ex: Half of the financial industry can look at the data and predict that lowering taxes will create jobs, while the other half can say raising taxes and funding job-creation programs will create jobs. Its totally subjective.

Luckily math is math. If a zero-guns scenario has no gun-related deaths, scenarios approaching this must have decreasing levels of gun-related deaths.

Your assertion that more guns would reduce other types of offences is laughable. Duhhhhh.....maybe its because gun-crazed maniacs are too busy killing people for anyone to get a parking ticket. Or perhaps you're saying that the assault rifles are for hunting deer in flak jackets.

------------------
Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, y'know.

And anyway, that's not what I said. I said didn't say that facts weren't important, I said that I didn't care. I respect you First, but quite frankly, you reach a point where you don't give a shit.

Since I usually just try to watch most of these arguments, I can see how they go.

Omega makes a point.
Daryus/Sol/First etc makes a counter point.
Omega remakes his point.
D/S/F make another counter point.
Omega remakes his point, but with longer words.
D/S/F make another point, and then ask Omega to address it.
Omega declares that the world is in social decay, and that it'll turn into a real-life version of 1984 within the next 4 months.

Repeat ad nasium.

You ever tried arguing with a Jehovah's Witness? That's what this feels like.

And again, while I can repesct you for going to the library to find evidence for your claim, the fact remains that I don't have the time or the inclanation to. This isn't some sort of contest, where the winner gets a big wet kiss. Especially since it's pretty obvious that there is never going to be a winner.

This isn't conversation. This is people shouting in the direction of other people.

------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
 

Of course my basic nature is selfish. I'm human. Show me a person who claims to have no struggle with selfishness, and I'll show you a liar.

The data before '96 would only be relevant to my overall conclusion if the armed robbery rate went up by 70% or more EVERY two years, before OR after the ban. I don't think that's a probable thing, but it's possible. Anyway, I didn't see any info on the ABS website for previous years, so 'bout the only thing we can do on that is ask Daryus if he thinks that's reasonable. 'Course, he doesn't think the CONFIRMED statistics are correct, so...

"And its also interesting that you trot out the tired old argument of supply-side economics. As anyone who has studied economics knows, this area is totally subjective."

Just because people disagree on something doesn't mean that there's no correct answer.

"Luckily math is math. If a zero-guns scenario has no gun-related deaths, scenarios approaching this must have decreasing levels of gun-related deaths."

Again, two dimentional thinking. You don't account for WHO has the guns. You don't account for deaths by other means that wouldn't occur if law-abiding citizens had guns. Your conclusion is flawed.

"Your assertion that more guns would reduce other types of offences is laughable."

Your inability to understand something so simple is far moreso. Guns in the hands of civilians are obviously not going to stop speeding. I never suggested such a thing. They do, however, prevent sexual assault, robbery, and assault. It's obvious that guns in the hands of law-abiding civilians prevent crime. Your assertion otherwise is laughable.

Liam:

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, y'know."

I'd disagree. In the right hands, it can become an art.

*L*

Let's follow this argument, shall we?

I make a statement, and back it up with sources.
Liberal adversaries question validity of sources.
I locate sources that, within reason, can not be questioned.
Liberal adversaries change the subject.
I return to subject.
LA's continue to ignore point, and again question the validity of my source (which has already been confirmed).
I requote source.
LA's engage in ad hominem attacks on me, and people not even involved in this argument.
No one has yet made a point that combats mine, with the possible exception of the point that I am only using data points dating from shortly before the ban. So in theory, the increase in crime could have nothing to do with the ban, and could in fact be a regular occurance, but it seems extremely unlikely.

The fact remains that immediately after guns were banned in Australia, gun-related crimes increased by a huge amount. There only explaination submitted (except the minor recession, which wouldn't explain things) is mine, which is that the ban CAUSED the increase.

The fact also remains that the same thing occured in Brittain, with no other explaination offered.

I'm the only one with a theory that fits the available evidence, the evidence being unquestioned. There is no reason not to accept said theory until further evidence comes to light, or someone proposes a new theory that also fits the facts.

"You ever tried arguing with a Jehovah's Witness? That's what this feels like."

Funny, how I was just thinking that this is exactly like arguing with a member of some cult, who refuses to respond to any point you make, or even acknowledge that you made the point in the first place.

You wanted to bring Rush into this earlier, well, here you go: something I have in common with Rush is the fact that we both want the truth. "Relentless persuit of the truth" is how he puts it. How should we then live? I want to know how I can best do good. Therefore, I must know the truth. Some have said that the only way truth can be discovered is by debate. But for debate, I suppose I must go elsewhere, as I can find none here.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Think about that statement for a moment. Just sit & think.

OK. Now here's the thought that popped into my head: "But....once guns are BANNED, then even OWNING a gun becomes a crime, & a gun-related crime at TAHT....so wouldn't that inflate the statistics as well?"

I'm wondering what the breakdown of these crimes are--how many were robbery, assault, murder....or just ownership, no license, illegal modification, etc. I didn't follow the links to the site & I probably never will because I have no desire to; it's a moot point for me--shoot me & I'm gonna cut ya.

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?

As I said, you REALLY need to enforce the issue in order to see result. I don't know how other countries work, but back then when Taiwan decided to ban fire arms, the government was dead serious about it, and even the military polices were joined up in the effort to clean up the remaining one in the market.

------------------
If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?

------------------
But the dead only quickly decay. They don't go about being born and reborn and rising and falling like souffle. The dead only quickly decay.
--
Gothic Archies
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! For the love of God, Montressor!

 

Some types of high calibre and high output weapons are banned. Not guns in total. This is the fact that invalidates Omega claims. Every household that had guns prior to the gun buyback scheme still has weapons. Only this time bolt actions, rather than semi-autos. Thus to the average criminal it would make no difference. Thus invalidating the idea that crime rose because a few weapons were taken out of the hands of the general public.

------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

4510.0 Recorded Crime, Australia
MAIN FINDINGS

The following table presents the summary of findings for the recorded crime statistics in Australia between 1998 and 1999. The main features are:

The number of murder victims increased by 57 persons or 20%. Of the murder victims in 1999, 21 victims (6%) were accounted for by the discovery of 12 bodies in Snowtown, South Australia, and 9 victims related to two family murder/suicide incidents in Western Australia;
* The number of assault victims rose by 2,699 persons or 2.1%;
* The number of robbery victims decreased by 1,211 or 5.1%;
* The number of victims for unlawful entry with intent (UEWI) and motor vehicle theft offences decreased by 18,777 (4.3%) and 1,722 (1.3%) respectively;
* and The victims of other theft increased by 46,794 or 8.3%.

Offence Category
Murder
1998: 285
1999: 342
% change: 20.0

Attempted murder
1998: 387
1999: 358
% change: -7.5

Manslaughter
1998:47
1999: 39
% change: -17.0

Driving causing death
1998: 276
1999: 206
% change: -25.4

Assault
1998: 130,903
1999: 133,602
% change: 2.1

Sexual assault
1998: 14,336
1999: 14,074
% change: -1.8

Kidnapping/abduction
1998: 705
1999: 763
% change: 8.2

Robbery
1998: 23,801
1999: 22,590
% change: -5.1

Blackmail/extortion
1998: 272
1999: 256
% change: -5.9

UNLAWFUL ENTRY WITH INTENT Involving the taking of property
1998: 339,512
1999: 322,913
% change: -4.5

Other
1998: 94,864
1999: 92,687
% change: -2.3

Total
1998: 434,376
1999: 415,600
% change: -4.3

Motor vehicle theft
1998: 131,587
1999: 129,865
% change: -1.3

Other theft
1998: 563,482
1999: 610,276
% change: 8.3

AusStats

Australia Gun Deaths - Totals

Accident
1988: 30
1989: 19
1990: 30
1991: 29
1992: 24
1993: 18
1994: 20
1995: 15
1996: 30
1997: 19
1998: 21

Suicide
1988: 521
1989: 451
1990: 488
1991: 510
1992: 490
1993: 435
1994: 420
1995: 388
1996: 382
1997: 330
1998: 234

Assault
1988: 124
1989: 80
1990: 79
1991: 84
1992: 96
1993: 64
1994: 79
1995: 67
1996: 104
1997: 79
1998: 57

Legal Int.
1988: 4
1989: 7
1990: 4
1991: 6
1992: 14
1993: 3
1994: 7
1995: 6
1996: 0
1997: 7
1998: 7

Unknown
1988: 17
1989: 15
1990: 15
1991: 5
1992: 7
1993: 6
1994: 0
1995: 3
1996: 5
1997: 2
1998: 8

Totals
1988: 692
1989: 572
1990: 617
1991: 634
1992: 631
1993: 526
1994: 526
1995: 479
1996: 521
1997: 437
1998: 327

Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics

Look here...here

Or you can read

Australian Attorney General, Daryl Williams' letter to Charlton Heston here

You know, I was just re-reading my post, I don't think I had any mention of Limbaugh there. Interesting how you equate lobodomy with the Rush-ter.

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

Oh, and by the way, what do the above figures seem to say about the validity of NewsMax?

------------------
"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com

[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited July 17, 2000).]
 

Well, I can't get to the referenced link, 'cause my browser keeps freezing when I try, but if I'm not mistaken, the answer to your question is 'absolutely nothing'. I've seen those numbers directly on the ABS page, and they weren't released until after that NewsMax article was written.

Liam:

I meant that as a collective 'you', refering to all my opponents. 'All y'all', as people apparently think we say down south.

*awaits Frank complaining about how the French ruined English*

You do, of course, realize that the number of gun deaths means nothing? It's the number of total crimes that counts. Of course if you remove guns gun crimes will go down. But other crime will go up to compensate.

Daryus:

Well, the fact that it's just different types of guns is...

*talks to Daryus*

OK, looks like I'm screwed on this one. According to him, the laws still allow you to carry guns in public. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what caused the jump in crime. Two suggested theories were the E. Asian mafia moving in from HK, and the mild recession. Neither looks like it could cause a 70% increase in armed robbery, but we still don't know what did. 'Bout the only possibility I can come up with is that 'armed robbery' includes breaking into someone's home, which would certainly be more likely if you knew that someone would have to go to more trouble to get to a weapon.

Although my Brittain stats still stand. That and the example of the US, where invariably, the stricter the gun control, the higher the crime. I still have a case, just not as strong a one as I thought.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

Omega, you don't happen to be employed by Paramount, do you?

------------------
I am not good with English but excuses me. I hate you whom think bad of the gods of the thunder known under the name of ""Metallica"". Good tape of ""Metallica"" is ""Load"", that you like it or not. A much better tape of Metallica ""Load"" than overrated the tape known under the name of ""Iron Maiden"" ""Powerslave"". You all are penis for the bad one of thought about ""Lars"". ""Lars"" can take a cucumber in bottom of his throat without reflex of muzzle. Lars can too take cucumber in bottom with no stretching of bottom hole sphincter muscle. Thanks for reading.
--
an anonymous fan
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm saving all my love for you.

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited July 17, 2000).]
 

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Frank is absolutely right." - Laz Rojas

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited July 17, 2000).]
 

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

Sol: A sixteen-year old Nashvillian working for Paramount. Interesting concept.

*takes sip of non-acloholic beer*

Now if I understand Daryus correctly, the effects of the '96 laws were that certain guns were removed from the public hands and replaced with other types of guns. Now if that happened in every case, so that the total number of guns in private hands is the same, if the kinds of guns replaced are just as effective as the kinds of guns that replaced them, and if there are no other effects of these laws, then I can see no reason that these particular laws could increase crime. Now if other laws were passed at the same time, maybe, but I don't know of any, so I can't theorize. These particular laws don't seem all that insidious (with the possible exception that I'm under the impression that this allows searches without warrants, but I'm not sure there).

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Here's a little story whose source I've unfortunately lost, but which occurred on Aug. 20, 1999. Perhaps our Ozzie friends can dig up the relevant newspaper stories? But this is the story I got:

This is the story of a middle aged man who belongs to a shooting club and is a known gold prospector. In his capital city suburban backyard, he washes and treats small quantities of ore-bearing deposit for the gold traces.

The federal taxation department, decides that he MAY be withholding information relevant to his income. It asks the federal police to pay a call on the house. They contact their state counterparts and find that he has 20 registered firearms.

The resulting visit they pay to the house is at dawn, by courtesy of the tactical response unit, wearing flak jackets. The man and his family are bundled out of the house under submachine guns.

THIS is the new Australian way of asking people if they're making too much pocket money by washing dirt in their backyards?
What justifies this?

OOH, they said, he had 20 firearms registered. Imagine... anyone so potentially callous and potentially violent and potentially tax-avoiding as to own 20 guns, belong to a shooting club, become a licenced shooter, and then register his guns with the appropriate authorities. How.. Despicable!

They also tell me that a certain police official in Victoria keeps a very close eye on the database so that if a gun owner allows his shooter's licence to lapse, for whatever reason (including hospitalization and travel) he can send police out immediately to confiscate the now-illegal firearms. I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

Also, no nation should be allowed to have a nuclear arsenal. No one needs that much power anyways!! In fact, ballistic missles as well. We should take away these horrible weapons from all nations. They can kill people, and they are terribly dangerous.

Sounds absurd, doesn't it?
How many nations would agree to this?

------------------
"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams

 

"Sounds absurd, doesn't it?"

Um...no? Brilliant, I'd say. Also unworkably utopian. Still a good idea.

"How many nations would agree to this?"

Aside from Brazil and Argentina and South Africa? (All nations which voluntarily ended their nuclear weapons program after suitable international pressure, I believe. Though my recollection is a bit rusty, and it might only be one of these nations.) It depends on how sweet the offer is. Don't have nukes or we'll kick your ass won't entice as many nations as don't have nukes and we'll set up a sweet trade deal. Flies, vinegar, honey, etc.

Do you, then, think that every nation has a right to a nuclear arsenal? I don't mean to sound snippy, I'm genuinely curious. This is something I was thinking about the other day. If so, you are at odds with, well, every nuclear power. Consider the fuss raised over Pakistan and India. And I'm willing to bet large sums of money that both of those nations will be on the side of the other nuclear powers when the next nation decides to build a few warheads.

Most nations, it seems, simply don't need to have any nuclear weapons on hand. In the current geopolitical climate, any nation using them in a war is going to be an instant pariah. And while they're good for intimidating enemy nations, there aren't too many enemy nations around. A glance at the map shows that most conflicts these days are internal, and not the sort where really, really big bombs are all that useful. (You wouldn't want to be using nuclear bombs to clear out a neighborhood of Bosnian Muslims when they're just a few blocks away from your own home, etc.)

------------------
I am not good with English but excuses me. I hate you whom think bad of the gods of the thunder known under the name of ""Metallica"". Good tape of ""Metallica"" is ""Load"", that you like it or not. A much better tape of Metallica ""Load"" than overrated the tape known under the name of ""Iron Maiden"" ""Powerslave"". You all are penis for the bad one of thought about ""Lars"". ""Lars"" can take a cucumber in bottom of his throat without reflex of muzzle. Lars can too take cucumber in bottom with no stretching of bottom hole sphincter muscle. Thanks for reading.
--
an anonymous fan
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm saving all my love for you.

Sort of like when I used the planet buster on you in Alpha Centauri.

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

 

To get rid of ALL nukes, you must have every nation do so, or it won't work.

To get rid of ALL guns, you must have every individual do so, or it won't work.

I'll give up my right to a gun when the outlaws give them up too. Otherwise, I'd rather have a more level playing field.

------------------
"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams

 

With your kind of mentality, the celebrated land-mine ban/agreement which was just created a year ago would never have been created. (Notice that the United States still refuses to sign it)

On a more significant point, that is the general intent of the various START-style treaties that the States have been involved in.

Gun control (or the reduction of nuclear weapons) does not have to be an all or nothing procedure. All you have to do is reduce the number of weapons in the hands of amateur criminals (ok...thats an odd sounding term, insert whatever is the reverse of professional criminals.)

------------------
1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
 

That is all.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 21, 2000).]
 

And before anyone brings it up, it isn't paranoid to think that there are people that will take advantage of you if given the chance. It's stupid to think there aren't. It WOULD, however, be paranoid to think that EVERYONE will take advantage of you if given the chance. There's a big difference.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

The problem with having a big military, even for self-defense is that you always end up using it when you've got nothing else to do. Its essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We had feudalism which created a class of knights. Without anyone to fight, these knights couldn't just sit around twiddling their thumbs, so they went out and tried to find a fight anywhere they could.

Its the same today, any looney without anything to do (and needing to boost his popularity) can lob a few Tomahawk missiles at Afganistan, or Iraq, or who knows where. (see: Wag The Dog)

Just like with giving citizens guns. You end up with people shooting their pizza-delivery or paper-delivery people. Everybody wants to be a bloody hero.

------------------
1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
 

I'd like to see the government try to take away all the criminal's guns... But first, they'd start on the easy targets, like Mr. Jones on 5th Street, Smalltown, USA, who has had the gun for 12 years, uses it for hunting and target shooting. He also has a wife and 3 kids and works at Factory, Inc. etc. etc.

Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them.

------------------
"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams

 

True, but you also end up with several hundred, if not thousand, times MORE crimes prevented by citizens with guns than accidents by citizens with guns.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

When you're dead, and your opponents are still alive, you didn't win.

Oh, you may have the moral high ground, but you're still "bleedin' de-MISED!"

(apologies to Mr. Cleese and the parrot)

Oh, and I think the fact that there were a heluva lot MORE Indians than there were Brits in India might've had something to do with it. I mean, you don't take out a troublemaker when his followers outnumber you 200(00?) to one. Some of them might get nasty. So you graciously withdraw... kind of like the US/UN did once China entered the Korean War. Too many folks to fight without an intolerable escalation, so you all make nice instead.

Which ends up being an argument FOR arms, don't it?

BTW, did North Korea or China sign the no-mines treaty, and if so, are they abiding by it? What? No reliable data? How suprising... They also signed several UN 'civil rights' treaties, didn't they? BEFORE Tianamen Square? Oh, my. Oh, my my my.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

And wasn't there a little thing about proliferation of nuclear arms that they were involved with as well?

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

First: Hands up, who remembers Ghandi?
Hands up, who remembers the name of the person who assassinated him? *shrug*
The point is, one man can't be perfect and change the world, but at least he'll be remembered in a good way for a long time.

"When you're dead, and your opponents are still alive, you didn't win."

Oh, one word: Christ
Are you saying he lost? Interesting question

Uhhh, your argument is for arms in a occupation of a hostile country in which you had no business being in anyways (which I'd have to agree with, advanced arms is great for oppressing others and stepping on their rights) ....I don't see the relation with gun control.

Omega: The US also agreed with the Geneva conventions. Didn't stop them from dropping the only nuclear weapons used in a war did it?
Funny that.

------------------
1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
 

Poor argument. It doesn't matter if you have an AK-47 slung over your shoulder when someone has a revolver pointed at your head. Type of weapon doesn't really matter, so long as it can be easily used.

Christ's opponents are still alive, but their defeat is ensured. Christ is still alive (Yes, I'm aware that only Christians believe that, but you brought up the argument on my terms, so...). Your argument is again flawed.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

My across the creek neighbors, (less than 100 yards/meters) are selling Crack. They took off a few weeks ago, and we figured the police were on to them, untill two Cubans (Hispanic gentelmen, with Miami licence) showed up looking for them. State rode workers saw the two gentelmen at my neighbors place. The two Cubans went to other hollows, looking for a place that matched the discription they had. A junky yard with Ford trucks in it. They found a friend of ours, with Chevy trucks in his yard, and hasseled him. Both were carring brief cases. The rumor going around is that the neighbors owe the Miami mod $30,000 and some coke. The Cubans evenually left, without finding the neighbors, the neighbor retuned about a week ago.

Would you:
Call the police (we did)
Set around helplessly, hopeing the Cubans never return, and if they do, don't fire in the direction of your mother's home.
Keep a gun handy, in case the neighbors run your way with the Cubans chaseing them.

I don't care if the Cubans get the neighbors. They deserve their fate for getting involved in the first place, but if they come our way, we are ready. The mob don't leave witnesses.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Thats the nature of an arms race.
By getting a gun, you haven't improved your situation, you've only made it more lethal for whichever party loses.

Also, you've messed up your other point.
1) First said that if you die while your opponents are still alive, you have lost.
2) You are saying that Christ "won" despite the fact that he died. (Its hard to get resurrected, if you haven't died)

Kosh: You're bringing up an example of a very bad situation in a country with little to no gun control and rampant dustribution of arms. How does this help you?

------------------
1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
 

Ah, the fallacy of reductionism. How quaint.

By this logic, we can take a few steps further and say that if I confront the criminal with overabundant peace and joy, he will disarm himself.

Everybody SING! "This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius, the age of Aquariuuuuuuus..."

*waves a Dogbertish paw* BAH.

It also assumes the the balance of superior firepower will always be on the side of the criminal. What if he has a saturday night special, but I have a pump action shotgun? Then the 'arms race' HELPS me.

If you had your bare hands, and the criminal can get access to a firearm, he won't give up the gun just to level the playing field for you. And since illegal access to guns is far easier than legal access (ask Kosh's Cuban friends)... ta-da.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Which would greatly reduce your chances of surviving. I'd rather have the revolver.

"The criminal only has the AK-47 because you have the revolver."

Tell the cops in Brittain that. They're mostly unarmed, but they run up against teens with automatics. Your logic is flawed.

"By getting a gun, you haven't improved your situation, you've only made it more lethal for whichever party loses."

Wrong. You may have made it more lethal for the looser, but you've greatly increased your chances of winning. Would you rather physically beat an intruder into your home up when he may have a knife or a crowbar, or would you rather hold him at bay with a gun from across the room? Your chances are far greater of surviving with the latter. Sure, if someone's gonna get injured, you'd rather be without guns, but with guns there's FAR less chance of someone being injured.

You said: "First said that if you die while your opponents are still alive, you have lost."

First actually said: "When you're dead, and your opponents are still alive, you didn't win."

Major difference. And since First doesn't believe in the ressurection of Christ, I doubt he formulated the rules to allow for it. Nor did I say I unquestionably agreed with this statement. You've started a pointless argument over nothing.

First:

*cheers*

Name what position you want in my presidential administration. If you're qualified, and it hasn't been taken, it's yours. We need more intelligence in government.

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Physically beat on him. I prefer taking a personal note in my work.

"Your chances are far greater of surviving with the latter."

No, not really. My own personal chances of surviving are far greater no matter if the other person is armed or NOT. That's just by sheer dint of my own inherent superiority.

"Sure, if someone's gonna get injured, you'd rather be without guns, but with guns there's FAR less chance of someone being injured."

No, not really. If I'm out for hurtin', "someone" is going to be severely injured whether guns are involved or not. That's how I am.

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

quote:

---

Mucus said: you're bringing up an example of a very bad situation in a country with little to no gun control and rampant dustribution of arms. How does this help you?

---

My chances of surviveing the next visit from the Cubans goes up. I don't think they would bother us anyway, unless we just happened to be standing at the door, or in the window, or, as I said above, the neighbors run our way. The creek seperating us is shallow, and the neighbors would have to run up hill if they go in the other direction.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Please, oh please oh PLEASE tell me we don't have another pseudoninja on our hands...

Oh, yeah, "I'm gonna disarm and whoopass on a knife-weilding intruder."

Buddy, I don't hare how good you are. I fire off a double-barrelled shotgun in your general direction, and you ain't hitting nothing but the floor.

"Grasshopper, best kung-fu block no stop hot lead."

And just because we're playing the bragging-rights game... I'm a qualified sharpshooter. So mugging me and running won't help...

Omega: I already told you. I play second fiddle to none, I want to be EMPEROR.

On the other hand, if you'll give me a much higher budget and full pseudodictatorial powers, I'll run the Space Program for ya.

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

Oh, yeah, "I'm gonna disarm and whoopass on a knife-weilding intruder."

Buddy, I don't hare how good you are. I fire off a double-barrelled shotgun in your general direction, and you ain't hitting nothing but the floor.
Eventually, yeah. If I'm in that "urge to kill rising" mode, I'd probably inflict my damage, look down, see the blood pumping out, mumble something along the lines of "MotherFUCKer!!" & THEN fall to the floor. LOL..

"Grasshopper, best kung-fu block no stop hot lead."
Unless you're Fred Ward. (A lolly to the person who gets the ref!)

And just because we're playing the bragging-rights game... I'm a qualified sharpshooter. So mugging me and running won't help...
You keep a rifle on you? Heh..um...I can shoot rubber bands really well...heeheehee...

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins (1985)

And ended.

However for Star Trek nutters, this film also stared Kate Mulgrew.

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
 

Remo Williams... great movie.

Omega: Can I pave it over and use it as a launch installation?

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

 

And speaking of which, remember when action heroes were worthwhile? Charles Bronson was ugly & looked like a pussy, but MAN, when he got mad.....AND he got t'screw Leila Kalomi!

------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel