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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
2. If we can have trade with China, who also is communist, and more of a threat to us, then why not Cuba?.
3. Cuba, with its resources, could be a great market, which America is missing out on.
4. The embargo hasn't changed anything, nor will it ever. So what's the point of having it?
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When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
Also, if Castro wants to start trading again, he should be begging, not whining about 'yankee aggression.'
PUH-leeeeeez!
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"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
On the bright side, I can neatly side-step this question because Canada has no trade embargo with Cuba
:P
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Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.
[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 16, 2000).]
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
Its a ironic pity that they were right and that they ultimately fell to greedy venture capitalists.
Furthermore, its ironic that many in the United States would prefer isolationism, just what China preferred.
Maybe history does repeat itself afterall.
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Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.
[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 16, 2000).]
Now, for your comments, Dee.
1) Well, Castro has successfully brainwashed the Cubans into believing that America is at fault for their society's problems. Same way in which Iraq and Libya have convinced their people that America is the "Great Satan" and should be nuked off the face of the planet.
2) Two Words: We shouldn't.
Okay, another few words. An editorial cartoon a few years back had Canada's Mascot (the Beaver) holding up signs about Democracy in Haiti. The Caption said "Standing Up for Human Rights". The next panel had the same beaver sitting down with a newspaper bearing the headlines "Canada sells Nuclear Reactors to China". The Caption said "Sitting Down for Human Rights".
3) What resources?
4) Of course. Cuba would always remain a third world country, would it?
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
-Chris Martin, 14-Jul-2000
One word: tourism. Cuba has some of the nicest beaches, and it used to be the premier site for American tourist during the pre-Castro days.
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When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Tyrants want their people to be cut off from the outside world, from dangerous notions of freedom and the free exchange of ideas. It hardly seems like a wise policy to help such leaders achieve this goal.
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But the dead only quickly decay. They don't go about being born and reborn and rising and falling like souffle. The dead only quickly decay.
--
Gothic Archies
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! For the love of God, Montressor!
Didn't the Brits "open" China by going in and taking over places like Hong Kong and Shanghai? Didn't the Americans "open" Japan by sending Perry's fleet to whoop some butt?
When can we open Havana?
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
The "opening" of China weakened the contemporary monarchy, eventually throwing the nation into chaos, and further meddling by other powers lead to the eventual import and success of communism.
side-fact: Interesting etymology of Hong Kong, essentially meaning "fragrant harbour" due to the import of British drugs relating to the Opium war.
Good job world. This isn't as straightforward as we'd like it.
.....course the Bay of Pigs could be considered a failed "opening".
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Stealing from one author is called plagarism.
Stealing from many is called research.
[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 17, 2000).]
It was Japan's intense racism for everyone else that lead to war.
After Japan's 'opening,' many of their thinkers went to work on how to deal with the western world. They knew about China, which lead to their isolationism. When they were forced to interact with the Western world, they decided that the West was a bunch of barbarians who happened to have better weapons. To avoid being conquered, they sent out many of their people to learn western ways and ideas, and to bring back that knowledge. Then, the Japanese would use the technology to turn around and defeat the Western barbarians.
This theme is present in many of their pre-war works, as well as during the Meiji Restoration. I can get specific quotes if you like, but it'll take a bit of digging through my college stuff.
------------------
"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
I suppose you believe Hollywood propaganda that the Indians were the aggressers against the United States and Europeans in North America as well right?
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 17, 2000).]
When your government slaughters a couple thousand peaceful demonstrators, I'd call them uncivilized, wouldn't you?
As for Cuba, look http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/12/233056 and http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/14/172814 . That should tell you what you need to know.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And blue hair.
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
My "History of East Asia" college course taught that each (Japanese and Chinese) culture thought itself superior to all others, (as did white western culture), and that bits of that feeling persist to this day (as it does in places in white cultures). This led to conflict, but was not in and of itself a primary cause. However, it was partly Japan's version of "Manifest Destiny" that led them to seek control of the Pacific Rim.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
quote:
Hahahah. If racism against Japan lead to WWII, then slavery started the American Civil War.
Hate to tell you this Jeff, but slavery did cause the Civil War. The "right" the states rights people were fighting for was slavery.
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
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"I just measured him. He's about 21"."
-Chris Martin, 14-Jul-2000
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Lesse, the Roman empire slaughtered christians, American's slaughtered Indians, same with Canada to a lesser degree, Spain had its Great Inqusition, China had Tianammen Square, England had *deep breath* Scotland, Ireland, various Protestant vs. Catholic clashes....need I go on?
By your definition, there isn't a single civilization in the world. Except maybe the really small ones in the Pacific rim
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited July 18, 2000).]
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
In the first half of the century the Cuban economy was pretty much controlled by the USA. The money & wealth generated went back to the USA. The Cubans, being a tad peeved by this, had a revolution. Castro booted out US companies. This peeved the USA off. And they went about systematically destroying Cubas reputation for the next 40 odd years.
----
Some interesting things the CIA did to try and stop Castro:
When Castro came to the USA the US President refused to meet him.
The CIA systematically torched Cuban factories and farms. One document method was to cover a cat in petrol, light it, and then run it through a field of grain. Thus burning the crop. Lovely.
The CIA also tried to have Castro assasinated, and attempted poison. Look up operation mongoose, all ye chest thumping yankees. Also, pick up a book by Noam Chompsky. The guy is utterly brilliant. It'll be a real educational experience.
----
When the Cubans attempted to gain nuclear weapons as a deterrent to US aggression, you chaps went mental. Typical. Nobody DARE defend themselves. Those bastards!
Now, after all this, the USA implemeted the Helms-Burton law. Stating the no company that traded in Cuba could trade in the USA. A brilliant plan. No doubt. The USA could then claim that they were not blocking trade with Cuba. And thus blame any economic problems the Cubans had on Castro. The reality is quite different. (Just in case you didn't get the hint *L*).
The Helms-Burton law DOES effectively stop other nations dealing with Cuba by using the simplest economic rule. Risk v. Return. If a company trades with the Cubans, they are exiled from the 270 million strong US market. The number 1 market in the world. Who in their right mind would choose to trade with a few million cubans, who have relatively little wealth? Nobody. Thus effectively stopping international trade with Cuba. Excellent, well done. Well done, Senator Jessie 'the bastard'(as we affectionately call him) Helms. So what is this about? It's about money. As it always was with the USA. If you can't have it, nobody can.
A small nation dared to stand up for itself, and what an example the mighty made of it. Be proud, very proud, of what you have achieved.
When attacking Cuba, people will cry: 'But look, Castro's a DEMON' and 'they sponsor terrorism'. Lets see. In the last decade, over 1 million children under the age of 5 have died in Iraq, due to American sanctions. God, George Must be proud. Look what daddy did. The USA sponsors far more political campaigns than any other nation. Hell, in 1975 they even had the Aussie PM removed. And lets not forget, with such reliable sources as CNN and the NY times reporting on Castro, everything they say must be true. Afterall, its not like the NY Times is owned by the largest supplier of weapons to the US govt or anything.
A couple of other 'minor' points, the sanctions are illegal as they have not been written and ratified by the UN. But hey, why would you care about that?
Does the US govt know why other nations such as China and India are reluctant to fully open themselves (and their gigantic markets) to you? Because, quite frankly, you can't be trusted. Cuba is a glaring example of this. If anyone dares to speak out, they're screwed. Just like Cuba.
Capitalism by nature is a predator. And the USA is the supreme capitalist. It's always about money, and thus power. That's the American way. The USA is at the top of the food chain. That's why the USA (5% of the worlds population), controls about 43% of the resources. (Yeah, obscene aint it!). So as you can see, this system of resource allocation isn't a merticoracy, its Darwinism at its peak.
So why can't you let the Cubans have their country back and live in peace? It's kinda hurtful to the ego maybe? Yeah...can't leave a little nation alone, to fend for themsevles. Nope. As one American politician stated 'Just give me the signal, and I'll turn that little island into a fucking parking lot'. Beautiful. It you can't have it, crush it.
The American way.
Get the hell off their island.
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited July 19, 2000).]
quote:
Yes, but both the political and economical reasons had a lot to do with slavery. The South's economy was dependent upon slavery, and they didn't want to give that up. The Politics of State's Rights vs. Federal control was also at issue, regarding whether the federal government could set limits on, or abolish, slavery.
Glad there is someone else around who sees this. We had this out at the BBS, back around flag day. I could have used you there First. You are far better at argueing then I am.
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
OK, ours. There's a big difference between a soldier getting jumpy or getting rocks thrown at him or whatever and opening fire, and soldiers actually having ORDERS to kill the protesters. Oh, and morality is not relative.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
relative
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
: not absolute or independent
Main Entry: ab�so�lute
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
: having no restriction, exception, or qualification,
independent of arbitrary standards of measurement
Great, Einstein raised doubt whether or not most of our basic measurements of time and space are relative and you're trying to say a human abstraction like morality is absolute?
Gee, is it moral to kill? The United States say yes (capital punishment), other nations say no (Canada). Is abortion moral? Don't even have to bother explaining that one. Is it moral to for a millionaire to steal bread? Is it moral for a starving child to steal food?
How the hell can you say that Western morals are absolute with no element of relativity?
On a more superficical level, I said its a matter of perspective.
For your second part. How the f*** can you be so egocentric (culture-centric?) to even start to believe that North America is the only "civilization" in the world. You're wrong with the superficial definition of the word. You're wrong with the connotations of that word.
And you're trying to say your standard of morality is the only applicable one in the whole world? Can you be any more arrogant?
Third part: Oh thats right. The Western world has never issued orders to kill civilians. Hiroshima, various sites of the Holocaust, Germans bombing London, Americans killing civilians in Vietnam. They all never existed.
Oh, wanna get more specific? Countries in the Western world have never killed their own citizens. Capital punishment, various flavours of eugenics, the Great Inqusition, Waco Texas, they all never existed.
I'm not saying that the rest of the world is perfect. In fact, far from it. Just don't be so arrogant to assume your little slice of the world is perfect and judge the rest of the world accordingly.
First of Two: The difference between history and current events is relative. See above elaboration.
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
Yeah, that's what they said in Kosovo.
You either learn from history, or you keep repeating the same old stupidity, and your hostility lasts for decades or centuries.
If you learn from history, you're obliged to help others avoid the same stumbles you made. Isn't that what parents are for?
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
I'm just saying the dividing line is relative, aka. is the line one millenia ago? one century ago? one month ago? one day ago? one second ago?
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
------------------
"One more day before the storm
At the barricades of freedom!
When our ranks begin to form
Will you take your place with me?"
--Enjolras, "One Day More," Les Miserables
"Great, Einstein raised doubt whether or not most of our basic measurements of time and space are relative and you're trying to say a human abstraction like morality is absolute?"
Abstract concepts created by humanity (assuming you don't believe in God) are certainly absolute. Look at mathematics. We defined it, so we make the rules. Pure science is a completely different animal, as we're analyzing something that already exists, and trying to deduce the existing rules. Just because we don't all agree on an absolute moral standard doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
"How the f*** can you be so egocentric (culture-centric?) to even start to believe that North America is the only "civilization" in the world."
I don't believe I ever said that we were.
"And you're trying to say your standard of morality is the only applicable one in the whole world? Can you be any more arrogant?"
Oh, yes, my belief that I'm right is such a terrible thing. Can't think that anyone's wrong, can we?
*sarcasm dripping off the walls*
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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"Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa."
-Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited July 20, 2000).]
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I am not good with English but excuses me. I hate you whom think bad of the gods of the thunder known under the name of ""Metallica"". Good tape of ""Metallica"" is ""Load"", that you like it or not. A much better tape of Metallica ""Load"" than overrated the tape known under the name of ""Iron Maiden"" ""Powerslave"". You all are penis for the bad one of thought about ""Lars"". ""Lars"" can take a cucumber in bottom of his throat without reflex of muzzle. Lars can too take cucumber in bottom with no stretching of bottom hole sphincter muscle. Thanks for reading.
--
an anonymous fan
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm saving all my love for you.
At any rate, the United States has traded with communist countries for quite a while now. Cuba really shouldn't any different than China for example. Save for the fact that American coporations have decided that China offers a huge market for stuff like Coke and you had better know that the tobacco companies are chomping at the bit to get in there too.
And, as we all know, the market overrides considerations like human rights, demorcacy, or species survival.
The only thing preventing normalized American relations comes down to two things.
------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
It's a crappy song anyway. Pomp & Circumstance no 1 is a much better national anthem. Pity it isn't, but there you go.
------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
Anyway, Constellation. Hmm. Let me try to get this straight. Communism is bad? Gotcha. Capitalism is good? Gotcha. Communist states collapse and embrace capitalism? Gotcha.
We should deny capitalism to Cuba so that communism falls. Uh...ok, the train just jumped about fifteen tracks. If free markets tend to lead towards free people, why on earth do we want to keep them away from the people who need freeing the most?
I think you need to seriously rethink your approach to economic policy.
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I am not good with English but excuses me. I hate you whom think bad of the gods of the thunder known under the name of ""Metallica"". Good tape of ""Metallica"" is ""Load"", that you like it or not. A much better tape of Metallica ""Load"" than overrated the tape known under the name of ""Iron Maiden"" ""Powerslave"". You all are penis for the bad one of thought about ""Lars"". ""Lars"" can take a cucumber in bottom of his throat without reflex of muzzle. Lars can too take cucumber in bottom with no stretching of bottom hole sphincter muscle. Thanks for reading.
--
an anonymous fan
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm saving all my love for you.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And for the trivia impaired out there, as was previously mentioned John Philip Sousa wrote Stars and Stripes Forever - while heading the US Marine Corps Band. Oorah!
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
Now, I'm not 100% up on the situation, but I can't see Castro being overthrown anytime soon. And I don't see any guarantees that his replacement will be better. Are you going to snub them forever?
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
I have some serious problems with trading with China concerning their use of (let's just call it what it is) slave labor in certain industries. Therefore, I have made the personal choice not to purchase goods manufactured in China. That's my right. No one can force me to buy their goods, just as the USA is under no obligation to trade with Cuba.
Also, while The Star Spangled Banner is a wonderful tune when done properly, it was essentially copied from an English song, and is therefore not completely American. I prefer America The Beautiful, myself. No offense to the English intended.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
As for, Castro he's almost 70 now, right? and you know, its f*cking hilarious that he's still around. I mean, how many presidents has he outlived 3, 4? He may not be a very nice guy, but nobody seems to be able to get rid of him. (Though a Wicked baseball player, apparently)
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"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
[This message has been edited by USS Vanguard (edited July 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by USS Vanguard (edited July 24, 2000).]
Darned right! The Boston Red Sox drafted him, if I'm remembering correctly. If only he'd signed the contract!
First, I'm not taking an automatic knee-jerk "communism is all evil" stance. Indeed, there are many facets of pure communist thought that are remarkably like the ideas expressed within the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, concepts like equality and egalitarianism. The problem is that no pure communist state has ever existed. Rather, they are warped and twisted into something only vaguely resembling what they were intended to be. For example, where in Marxist thought is the idea that communism means a lifelong dictatorship? I would posit that Castro adopted that idea from Lenin and Stalin (the dictatorship of the proletariat). I always thought that communism meant the ultimate withering away of the strong central government. Therefore, what we are seeing in Cuba isn't true communism. Perhaps someday we will see such a thing, but not anytime soon.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
------------------
"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
*deep breath*
LOL LOL LOL LOL
Oh, Omega, you crack me up.
------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
I do however love those grand know-it-all statements you make though.
But I might suggest to you Omega that there was more to your pithy previous post than your oversimplified discourse on the 80's economy.
Greed is not only the foundation of current American corporate society and ecomomy, but also the cornerstone on which this country was built. I can't think of finer synonyms for greed than the 1840's concept of Manifest Destiny or the 1890's crew of fine upstanding citizens known as the Robber Barons.
The accumulation of wealth, power, and materials, on the corporate and private level, supersedes just about everything else in this country. Not much has changed since the United States took the Southwest from Mexico; we have the largest ecological footprint in the world even though we have a small percentage of the world's population.
I can walk down Los Angeles Street, just a street or two over from here, and see the kindhearted system at work. Some folks over there have plastic for their cardboard houses to keep the rain out. Or how about decay in urban America as factories are closed, for non-greedy reasons to be sure, are closed and the work shiped away. Yup, those folks sure don't care about the stock deals and buyouts that the genial and compassionate CEO's have. I bet they sit around their TV watching Springer saying "let them have their millions, we can hunt rabbit for dinner."
But since you have pronounced yourself smarter then everyone else, I'll leave you with this to ponder...
I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
~Percy Bysshe Shelley
------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
Jay:
Again, you miss the difference between greed and legitimate self-improvement and self-concern. Greed is taking your self-improvement to such a degree that it harms others (the government's high tax rates would be an example).
As for the homeless, you forget that we've been through this before. A majority simply don't want to be helped. A good number have mental disabilities, due to that little liberal bill that was passed a couple decades ago which disallowed the forced incarceration of mentally disabled people in mental hospitals. It's not that they can't find anyone willing to have compassion on them. It's that, in general, having true compassion on the mentally ill has been outlawed, and many of the rest simply don't want it. This has nothing to do with the supposed greed of the rest of the country.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
This might be true IF a totalitarian dictator wasn't running the show. However, since a dictator is pulling the strings it stands to reason that any trade benefits would accrue to him and his cronies. As an example of this look at Iraq. Guess who takes a cut of the oil revenues? Yep, Saddam Hussein. Guess where the profits are funneled? Yep, Hussein's private bank accounts and/or into military spending. Little, if anything, benefits the common Iraqi citizen. Trade with Iraq, even on their current limited basis, has done nothing to "promote freedom" over there, and I would claim that the same thing would occur should trade be legalized with Cuba. The benefits would accrue to Fidel Castro, helping him remain in power. Appeasing dictators has historically generated the opposite effects than were intended. Trading with Cuba would not promote freedom there.
------------------
Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
It's the one with the most toys attitude.
As for the homeless, I don't think that we ever went anything on them with each other. Perhaps you talked with DT about the issue. Perhaps in a different thread.
------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
However I do love it when people trip themsevles up like this:
----
Omega said: And our society is not based around greed. It's based around the desire to improve the conditions of yourself and your loved ones. The persuit of happiness, to coin a phrase. There's a big difference. Greed implies obtaining wealth to the detriment of others. But, to use the eighties as an example, individual prosperity led to higher levels of charitable giving.
----
Now, on the face of it that statement may pass the scrutiny of a delirous camel. However old boy, you missed the most critical component of the current economic system. LIMITED RESOURCES. This means that there is only so much money, so much wheat, so much wood, or oil etc etc. Therefore, by increasing the amount of money you have, it is by default harming someone else. Sorry to bust your bubble, but that's the way it is. Greed is God.
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
Economics is not a zero-sum game.
Just because I gain doesn't mean someone else looses. I have a friend (who shall remain anonymous unless nesecary) who created his own contracting business. Used to be a preacher. Now he's living in a $300,000 home, which in Nashville is quite a bit of a house, especially when you live out in the sticks away from town like he does. So he's improved conditions for himself and his family by quite a bit. He's also created dozens of steady jobs, bettering standards for those around him. So tell me: who is harmed?
Wealth can be created and destroyed. It's created in the private sector, and destroyed by government. Look at MS, and at the sheer amount of wealth that has been destroyed by the government's unfounded lawsuit. As Rush is fond of saying, no country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. But when you let the private sector do it's thing, an amazing thing happens. Wealth is actually created. I believe Smith used the phrase "invisible hand" to describe the process.
Jay:
Sure greed exists, but I don't believe it dominates socitey, by any means.
And are you sure we haven't discussed this in another thread a while back? I could have sworn. But maybe it WAS with DT...
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Or, to put it another way, I contribute to two mutual funds. I want to earn and save money for my retirement. Is that greedy? No, probably not. I just want to earn enough to live on and not be a detriment to society in my old age. I believe in individualism. If I screw up my finances, then its my fault, not society's or the government's (barring more bleeding heart tax hikes, that is!). My $100 a month goes toward supplying companies with capital so they can expand their businesses, conduct R & D, and put more people to work who otherwise might not have jobs. If I earn some dividends, then great. Everyone wins. If not, then I probably should have researched my potential investments better. In the end I control my future.
The problem with Cuba is that the people there don't have this simple opportunity to control their own economic destinies because Infidel Castro remains in power. I turned on MSNBC this morning and what did I see? Castro leading an anti-US rally protesting the current trade embargo. If the Cuban people really want to experience the joys of the free market then they should jettison the dictator who has kept them from prosperity for so long. Remember, Castro wasn't very vocal about protesting the trade embargo when Cuba was receiving an estimated one million dollars per day from the former USSR. Looks to me like he's just looking for another rich uncle to hit up for cash.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
Omega: Uhh...wouldn't his former business competitors in contracting be harmed? In order for him to prosper, he had to steal (or "gain") customers from someone else.
Constellation: There's an interesting dilemma (paradox, idea...whatever.) The question is whether man creates history or if history creates the man. In other words, you can think of say Hitler "creating" the history that led up to WW2. But on the other hand, you can think of the history leading up to WW2 creating a "hole" for Hitler to rise to power.
In yet other words, if you took a time machine back to 1935 and killed Hitler, you might come back and find all of history exactly the same, except people might be asking you why you didn't kill Gobbels.
The question is whether the Cuban people even want to get rid of Castro, and if he magically disappeared, would the next person be just as bad? (or good, depending on your perspective)
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
Did it ever occur to you that there may not be that many contractors in the area? And even if there were, perhaps you haven't heard of something called "competition". You got your good contracters and your bad contracters. New one shows up and is a good contracter. He takes work away from the bad contracters. The patrons are helped in that they get better service. The bad contracters have the choice of either becoming better contracters, or quitting the business because they can't find work. The consumer is helped either way, and the workers can go find work at the good contracter (assuming they weren't the problem to begin with). The market works, but liberals never seem to take everything into account.
I'd say that the thousands of Cubans trying to escape Cuba want to be rid of Castro. And there's no reason to assume he'd be replaced by another brutal dictator.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Second, I think First, or maybe Jeff....ah some guy brought up this point.
"If you don't learn from history, you repeat your mistakes" (paraphrased)
About the contractors...hey hold your horses. You asked a question "Who is harmed", I answered "the other contractors", you agreed.
I wasn't making any value judgements, I was just answering your question. No need to get all poofed up about your little cute "market capitalism".
btw: If thousands are trying to escape, that implies the other 10 million or so are indifferent or better. This may strike you as a surprise, but not everybody in this world wants to go to America.
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
Your point about the opium wars is meaningless to this debate. China's slaughter of civilians was inhuman. What Brittain did a few centuries back is irrelevant.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
The seminal argument here is national memory. The OW shaped China's attitude toward the West greatly. The major western powers bringing opium into China, basicly telling China it had no real choice in the running of its government is a very close parallel to the American treatment of Cuba prior to, and during the rule of Batista. Much like China there was a real need for reform in Cuba and along came Castro to take advantage of the situation.
So, what this is about is the perceived slight the US received when Cuba decided it wanted to run its own country.
Not in our hemisphere ya don't!!
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 27, 2000).]
Gee, this whole board reminds me of first-semester philosophy, these last couple days...
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
The argument goes as such...
So, you can take your little fallacy sniping and stick it up your ass.
Stop being so pompous. Either make an argument or move on.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 27, 2000).]
Uh-huh. Right.
A more realistic view is that if he dies, his supporters will simply find a replacement. The only thing remarkable about Castro is that American propaganda has labelled him as anything from child-killer to the anti-Christ.
Its so much easier to hate someone you can dehumanize with propaganda isn't it? Its so much easier to live life when you can find a convenient scape-goat for the world's problems, isn't it?
By the way, history is very relevant. Or perhaps you're saying that your own forum signature is irrelevant as well, since it also refers to something centuries back? Interesting...
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
Viewpoint A: We should trade with Cuba.
Viewpoint B: No, we shouldn't. Trading won't improve their system of government, in fact, trading now would likely be used solely as propaganda fodder and to enrich the coffers of the Dictator and his minions, just as it is in other dictatorships such as Iraq. And by the way, we shouldn't be trading with China, either.
Viewpoint A: WAAAAH! You heartless, fascist, totalitarian imperialist hypocrite bastards!
Viewpoint B: Oh, grow up.
Oh, and "Castro's death squads are okay because Batista's death squads were worse" Is STILL a BASIC logical fallacy, and you KNOW it, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it, because you said it out loud where everybody could hear you. So stick that up YOUR ass. Sideways.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 27, 2000).]
), had you not beaten me to it. Bravo.Mucus:
I never said history was irrelevant. I said that the Opium Wars were irrelevant, because they have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Pay attention before you attack someone's positions, lest you make yourself look the fool.
I never claimed that Castro brainwashed everyone. Quite a few, yes, but probably not even a majority. The reason there are still people IN Cuba is because they figure that it's a little better to stay there than to risk their lives traveling shark (and Castro thug) infested waters the seventy miles to Florida in flimsy boats (at best). But the fact that thousands have come, and many more have tried, shows that it's not much better. Let Castro allow free emigration and see what happens (assuming no immigration quotas on our end).
I'm not dehumanizing anyone. Castro did that to himself when he slaughtered the eighty innocent men, women, and children on the boat he destroyed trying to escape. The reason he has been labeled a child-killer is that THAT IS WHAT HE IS!
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
quote:
Castro's death squads are okay because Batista's death squads were worse
Now, I just went back and re-read all of my posts in this thread looking for that quote. Funny, it doesn't seem to be there. So, not that I'm taking any logical leaps here, but at least I'm not playing with what people say and mangling the truth.
Now, as to you logical arguments, let's deal with those shall we?
Omega said:
quote:
If Castro were a benign despot, I'd have little problem with trading with him. But when he wantonly kills his own citizens, then he becomes the lowest form of life I can imagine, and should be cut off from the civilized world until he dies.
Now, that sort of statement when dealing with the presnt issues regarding Cuba is specious. The very fact that we traded with Cuba when Batistia was around and killing Cuban citizens makes it so. Only Batistia played ball with the US and pretty much let US business do whatever the hell they wanted to do.
Simple isn't it. Not too nuanced for ya?
Nowhere in that particular argument does it say that what Castro does regarding hurting the citizens who live in Cuba is right. Nor does it say what Batistia did was right. What it does argue for is some sort of constancy.
You can't say Dictator A is an ass, but let's us do what we want whilst he kills people. Then turn around and say that Dictator B is an ass, but we won't do anything with him because he won't play ball with us whilst he kills people.
Moreover, anyone that says we shouldn't trade with Cuba simply because it is a communist state is being more than a little disingenuous. Anyone that overlooks the fact that the government of the United States was more than a little pissed off because Castro took our island away needs to do a bit more thinking.
And let's talk about China for a second. It's those dynamic wealth producing American business owners that want to trade with China, and the right wing seems to love those guys...so, how does one justify that? I've yet to hear anything from anyone here that even marginally atempts to do so.
So, First, you can stick it anywhere you want to. In fact you can put butter on it. If you want to argue any given topic let's do so but don't come at me with that bombastic attitide...I've seen plenty of it in seminars before.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
As for why some want trade with China, I'm not here to justify the positions of others. I think all countries who commit grevious human rights violations should be cut off from the rest of the world for a couple decades. This includes Cuba and China. Period.
As for your argument with First: he said that you apparently believe that "Castro's death squads are okay because Batista's death squads were worse." I'd say he has a pretty good reason to believe that, considering that you said, "considering some of the things that went on before, no, Castro isn't all that bad..." How bad Castro is relative to Batista is irrelevant. He's still a monster. Yet another problem with liberals. They're stuck in the past.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 28, 2000).]
As for the rest, one can only bang ones head against a wall of idiots for so long. Those who twist, squirm and skirt the fringes of arguments. Those who, for reasons one can't understand, miss substance and nuance and brush away valid points in favor of arguing in circles.
There comes a time to say forget it and move on.
Forget it...
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 28, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 28, 2000).]
Also, I want to mock the opposing beliefs too. So it goes:
We should trade with Cuba because a free market will force their inferior economic system to compete with our superior one.
Oh, but Castro will make all the money!
Not so. In order to compete with a capitalist society, Cuba must inevitably become more capitalistic itself.
Oh, but Castro will control all the businesses!
Not so. Such an economic system demands that business owners be free to make their own decisions.
Oh, but Castro will win!
How, exactly? Either Cuba's businesses remain under governmental control or they don't. If they do, then they fail and the whole nation collapses under competition. If they don't, then you automatically begin to create a middle class. Middle classes are dangerous things, as they begin to clamor for things like freedom and political representation.
Anyway, tell you what. We'll meet back in a decade or so. If I'm correct, and China continues to pursue economic viability, it will see its totalitarian government stressed to the breaking point. If not, I owe you a Coke.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
I'm not certain this is so. By this logic, wouldn't more of the countries we trade openly with be more capitalistic? Say... Iraq and various other middle-eastern countries that we trade with more openly? As I recall, most of them are still monarchies and oligarchys. We traded with South Africa for a loooong time while the white minority controlled everything there...
And just how does capitalistic = free? Medieval Europe was very capitalistic... and they had Kings.
I agree with Omega. Just because we happen to agree with CURRENT policy does NOT mean we agree with ALL PAST policies. (I forget the name of THAT particular logical fallacy) NOR does past policy being wrong invalidate CURRENT policy. (That belief is another one, but I forget its name too.)
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
"one can only bang ones head against a wall of idiots for so long."
I, for one, never get tired of it. Makes me feel really superior to know that there are so many idiots out there who wouldn't know logic if it bit them on the butt.
"...and brush away valid points..."
Make a valid point and I'll get back to you.
Let me make it really simple for you all:
Q) Should we trade with China and Cuba?
Premise 1) Opressive governments are bad, and should be replaced with non-opressive governments.
Premise 2) If a certain action had a certain effect in a certain situation in the past, a similar action is likely to have a similar effect in similar circumstances.
Premise 3) The situation with the opressive governments of China and Cuba is similar to past situations with other opressive governments.
a) The governments of China and Cuba have both commited terrible, inhumane crimes, and severely restrict the basic freedoms of their people. Thus, these governments fit the description of opressive governments.
2) If the governments of China and Cuba are opressive governments, and opressive governments should be overthrown, then the governments of China and Cuba should be overthrown.
Evidence) Historical analogies, as First just pointed out, show that trade with opressive governments in the past did not help overthrow the governments.
3) Since trade with opressive governments in the past did not help overthrow those governments, since actions in the past are likely to have the same effect in similar circumstances, and since Cuba and China are similar situations to said past situations, it follows that trade with Cuba and China will not help overthrow their opressive governments.
Q.E.D.
Now instead of making vague accusations about twisting, squirming, and skirting the fringes of arguments, how 'bout picking a specific section of this argument and disputing it. Otherwise, it stands.
Take my advice: when you're faced with an unwinnable situation in which holding will do no good, capitulate. There is no glory in fighting on after you have been proven wrong, for you will only reduce your own credibility.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Why is the United States currently normalizing trade with Vietnam?
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
So when you can remove yourself from conservative tit long enough to answer 2 strightforward questions....
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
2) Because we have a liberal in office who couldn't care less about our national security..
Now if you're finished dodging MY questions...
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
What did I really expect.
Now, I'll ask a the same straight forward questions till I get some sort of answer. And I'll add one more.
Let's see what obfuscations I score now...
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 29, 2000).]
Also, I think we might need to confer over our definitions of "capitalism", as I don't see anything like it existing until the industrial revolution.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
quote:
Why is the United States currently normalizing trade with Vietnam?
quote:
Because we have a liberal in office who couldn't care less about our national security.
<George Takei>Oh, Myyyyyy</George Takei>
Let me guess. Vietnam will strap hydrogen bombs to boat people, dispatch them in sampans to Long Beach, CA, where they will detonate, destroying the American economy as we know it, largely because its been undermined by "those meddling liberals"?
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"When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?"
-Mike Tyson
You know what he told me? That I could throw as much logic and truth at them as I like, and they'd just ignore it. Jay seems to have hit the same snag. I'm going to mail him a brick. So he can hit his head with it. Probably a lot less painful than the current state of affairs.
Do you chaps think we can whittle this down to a
'Did so!'
'Did not!' argument?
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
2) and 3) same answers. We trade with China because Clinton doesn't care about human rights abuses. If he did, we wouldn't trade with China.
Your credibility continues to fall. There is no reason that I need to answer your questions before you can respond to my argument. Changing the subject is not a legitimate debating tactic.
Daryus:
If by your previous post, you mean the last one you made, I did respond to it. See the post immediately following about creation of wealth.
How 'bout you guys just create an argument similar to the one I did? You claim that you've thrown logic at me, but I have yet to see any. Choose a premise in my argument to dispute, post your argument so that I can pick at it, or you loose whatever pretence you had of trying to make a rational argument.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
It's called "political expediency."
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
This keeps popping up. Apparently, no-one has made any logical point in this thread. And since this phrase pops up fairly often, I'm guessing that no-one has ever said something logical.
Just because someone says something different to your opinions, it doesn't mean it's illogical. You are assumming you believe what you believe because you've looked at all the facts, and your is the only rational answer. Guess what? Others don't agree. And you are not the most correct man in the universe.
Or, in a nutshell, "your logic does not resemble our Earth logic."
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
You guys seem to think that my argument is completely without merit. So tell me where the problem is. I've spelled the whole chain of reasoning out for you. If my assumptions are correct, and my logic is sound, then my conclusion must be correct. If you've got a problem, point it out. If not, then capitulate. Either way, stop dodging the point.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
However, it wasn't until 1976 that the United States finally formalized full relations with China.
Sanctions have become a stick to use in foreign policy. Look out, we have an actuall continuation of policy from administration to administration!! As the great Vin Scully would say after watching yet another monster homerun from a Dodger player, Oh my....
Now, your previous answers to the questions below...
were...and let me check the tape on this one Omega...
quote:
1) Because we have a liberal in office who couldn't care less about human rights abuses.2) Because we have a liberal in office who couldn't care less about our national security..
So, as your thought process goes, we have governemtal and trade relations with China because of a liberal being in office who doesn't care about human rights abuses...
Nixon a liberal?!?! Whoa, back the train up to the station there mister!!
And Tiananmen Square happened in, let's just check the old almanac here...1989. And according to the almanac, George Bush was the Forty-First President and served from 1989-1993. Now, my recollection might be off a bit, but Bush, while not as conservative as Ronny Reagan (who, funny as it may sound, didn't stop trade with China) was a bit more to the right than, oh say Bill Clinton.
In fact on 24 May 2000, the Republican controled House voted to make permanent China's normal trading rights in the United States. House Republicans liberal...hmm.
So, in light of the above, your answer to question number 1, as to the perceived liberality of President Clinton is, well, ignorant.
Now, question number 2. Also an ignorant answer from Omega. Let's see if we can find something more in the realm of possibilty. Perhaps we can find some sort of parallel between the Cuban situation and Vietnam.
Orange County ghas a Little Saigon which contains a core group of anti-communists just like Little Havana. Believe me, I've seen the protests. Not so long ago, there were huge protests over a shop owner putting a picture of Uncle Ho up in his store and there was a big clash of the Bowers Museum displaying art from Vietnamese artists that the core ex-patriots thought to be too pro communists. Well, the hue and cry from this group was ignored and we went ahead with trade to Vietnam.
Two weeks ago, the Clinton administration announced it would lift economic sanctions against North Korea that have been on the books since the early 1950s. And by umpin-yimminy there seems to be some good things happening here. The North is actually talking to the South about reunification!!
Fascinating how all this works isn't it Omega.
Now we do not currently trade with Cuba.
The general, and I would say disingenuous, argument for not trading with Cuba is that Cuba is a communist state and Castro has done some bad things while in office.
Cuba is a communist state. We trade with other communist states. China, Vietnam, North Korea...
But oh oh, China and the others are bad too and as an anti-commy red hater we shouldn't trade with them!!!
Not the question we are arguing. We trade with the countries listed above. We're talking about Cuba. We are talking about bringing Cuba up to a par with other communists countries we currently have trade relations with. Why we should or shouldn't.
Why don't we then? A consistant foreign policy would have to argue that we also trade with Cuba as well. China has Tiananmen Square in it's background...Vietnam and N. Korea has it's share of bad things done I'm sure.
What the Cuban situation really comes down to is an argument of National Memory (yes, Kathy, I have mentioned this before). Americans have a very selective memory when it comes to some things. Not about Cuba it seems. Americans remember that Cuba used to be open for business to go in and make profits. In other words American citizens remember that it was pretty much our island.
And Americans, stanchly anti-communist, took great exception to the fact that Cuba, our island, and island in our very backyard went Commy!! The Bastards....we'll teach them a lesson!!!
That is why we don't trade with Cuba. And, and I said before, those are fairly hypocritical reasons too.
Consider the argument as a whole Omega before you cut and paste sentences 3, 16 and 45 to argue against.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 29, 2000).]
Putting words in my mouth again. I said that we shouldn't trade with them because of the attrocities they've comitted and the treaties they've broken. Not because they're socialist.
As for my answers, I wll modify them. We trade with the countries in question because the current administration doesn't care about the human rights abuses and broken treaties. Same difference. We still shouldn't trade with them. Bush should have cut off trade, too, but Clinton's the one in office now.
You seem to be having a completely different argument than I am. You're claiming that since we trade with China et al., we should trade with Cuba, too. Now, I'm all for a consistant foreign policy, but you ignore the fact that I'm arguing that we shouldn't trade with ANY of them, and for completely different reasons as to why you think we don't trade with Cuba.
I want a consistant foreign policy. I just want to treat China and Co. like we treat Cuba. That's the one case where we got the treatment of a brutal government right.
And as for your conclusion about Nixon, it's quite specious. I said we continue trading with China because of a liberal president that doesn't care about human rights abuses. You construe that to mean Nixon, even though the abuses in question happened fifteen years after his presidency. I have no problem trading with socialist nations. You'd have trouble finding one that isn't. It's when they start slaughtering their people that I say trade should stop.
Besides, Nixon imposed wage controls and screwed the economy for the rest of the decade. Hardly a conservative move.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Tiananmen Square happened in what, '89? Daddy Dubya was president there wasn't he?? Or did you miss that part?
Pretty good guess on my part on the number of sentences you cut and pasted from my post to counter everything I said. I came the over/under was 3.
Then what the "open trade with Cuba" arguments come down to is this...
I say be consistant in foreign policy decisons. And if the government doesn't want to, well fine, at least admit that we're not trading with Cuba because of the memory we have about the Castro take over.
You say, screw 'em all. It's my island? Or is that too Braveheart for you? (sarcasm laden)
Is that about right?
How every anti-business of you.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 30, 2000).]
So MY argument is more like: I say be consistant in foreign policy decisons. We hit the nail on the head with Cuba when it comes to how to treat inhumane governments, regardless of why we did it. That's the way we SHOULD treat Cuba. Thus, to have consistant policy, that's the way we should treat China, et al.
Get it now?
See, you keep changing the subject. That's why you're getting confused. I couldn't care less why we imposed an embargo (at least for the purposes of this discussion). It DOESN'T MATTER to the question of whether we should trade with Castro or not. I say we shouldn't trade with him because of human rights abuses. My argument is that huge thing that I posted a while back that you completely ignored. Unless you can punch a hole in that argument, and show that we DO have a reason to trade with Castro despite the attrocities he's commited, THEN you'll have a point.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
How about Russia? The KGB still exists--just has a different name. People still disappear & their new leader is a known mob member. And speaking of the mob, what about Italy & Japan, where mafia & yakuza influences even the uppermost echelons of government?
Should we trade with Argentina & Brazil? They gave safe harbor to Nazi war criminals. And Germany overran Europe 60 years ago. Do we hold that against them still? Israel routinely does things that we don't like--strikes on Syrian nuclear power plants & the like. Aid cuts for them? No, of course not. That's just political suicide & stupidity.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
If the people in England want to do something about the searches, they have the option of doing so. It's a democracy.
I'm not to fond of Russia now, personally, but cutting trade would be a little drastic at this point.
As for Brazil and Germany, you can't hold a government responsible for what it's PREDECESSORS did. Just what the current government did. If Castro got killed and was replaced by a benevolent dictator, or even a democracy, I'd be all for trade.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And lest we forget that many people would consider our nation a nation that commits human rights abuses. After all, when we execute someone, aren't we abusing their right to, well, live. Give me a break. I mean, electricution, that's pretty gruesome isn't it. I don't want to seem like i condone human rights abuses, but lets have some perspective. More likely than not, every nation is responsible for some human rights abuses in a nother nation's eyes at some point in time, whether they be mild or serious.
For example, lets look at Great Britain, for several decades the British government has been slaughtering its citizens in Northern Ireland and the Irish have been slaughtering British troops. However, they are not considered human rights abuses? Why not? I mean they are killing their citizens aren't they. "Well their terrorists, right?" yes, of course, but let's guess how many children have been caught in cross-fires, how many innocent men have been shot in a raid, how many families left without fathers or mothers.
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"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
quote:
I don't care why we're not trading with Cuba. It's completely irrelevant to my position. I'm saying why we SHOULDN'T trade with Cuba.
I'm going to have to make a list of these Omegaisms.
To paraphrase, 'I don't care why we don't just soes we don't.' Why is irrelevant. Sort of a hit and miss foreign policy you've got there eh?
Talk about your inner confusion...
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
We are discussing whether we should trade with Cuba. The logical way to proceed with this discussion is to weigh the pros and cons of trading with Cuba, and see which outweighs the other. The reason we are not trading with Cuba at present has no relation to the pros and cons of trading with Cuba, and therefore is not relevant to this discussion.
Get it now?
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 30, 2000).]
To paraphrase a phrase, no island exists in the comunity of nations as an island. It does not exist without a history. It does not exist without previous feelings and emotions attached to it.
Ignore that all you want to. More power to ya. If you get tired of having your head in the sand, I'll welcome you back to the land where people recognize mulitple layers of interaction and socialization.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
"What about The UK? They do a lot of things we don't really like re: prisoners & searches concerning the IRA."
Er, what the fuck?
Oh, and:
"For several decades the British government has been slaughtering its citizens in Northern Ireland and the Irish have been slaughtering British troops."
Er, what the fuck?
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!"
Guido Anchovy
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
"If the people in England want to do something about the searches, they have the option of doing so. It's a democracy."
What? What's going on? Has something happened and I haven't been told?
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!"
Guido Anchovy
See, I can make pronouncements too.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
The government uses the rather tired 'castro is a monster line' to justify taking the hard line on the Cubans. The real reason behind the sanctions is linked to the fact that the Cubans threw American business off their island, and ye yankees wanted revenge.
Lets face it, govts don't care about human rights unless its convenient. In this case, its convenient to use it as a (somewhat lame) justification.
If you choose to believe that the USA is not trading with Cuban on moral grounds, then do so. You'll just be deluding yourself.
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
But he doesn't. His reasons for not trading with Cuba are different from the US's.
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
"If you choose to believe that the USA is not trading with Cuban on moral grounds, then do so. You'll just be deluding yourself."
Did I ever SAY that I believed that we weren't trading with Cuba on moral grounds? Would you people stop putting words in my mouth? I couldn't care less about why we're not trading with Cuba. Current foreign policy is completely and totally irrelevant to the hypothetical perfect foreign policy, which is what we're debating now. If there were NO embargo, I'd still hold this position.
Jay:
"No, my argument stands."
What argument? You mean the one that's completely seperate from what we're talking about?
"See, I can make pronouncements too."
Yes, but without any sort of logic behind them, they carry no weight, and only serve to reduce what little is left of your credibility.
Liam:
Sorry. Shouldn't have just taken their word for what they say is going on over there. Consider it retracted.
Ultra:
As for the crimes committed by the Cuban government:
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/1/143641
Or more directly...
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/12/233056
Frank:
Ah, thank you. You have just single-handedly restored my faith in human intelligence beyond the level of a ten-year-old. Jay has a way of destroying it.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Sounds pretty moralistic to me.
I'll try this from a different angel (something that the other side seems unwilling to do...pronouncements are such bully policy....in the T. Rooseveltian sence)
How long do sanctions stay on a given country?
Sanctions are being incrementally lifted against North Korea and good things are happening in talks with the South about reunification. So, after 50 or so years of the US saying "bad country, bad country" we make moves that are positive in nature. And good things happen. North and South Korea may soon become one and a very productive memeber of the community of nations.
Ok, Cuba. Different country, same sort of situation. We've kept Cuba on it's own...well at least out of the United States neighborhood...since the 60's. Bad country, bad country we say. Part of the reason we say that is the history we have with the island.
We see good things happening as we move to extend relations with N. Korea, we move to help Vietnam back into the community of nations...but not Cuba.
Omega's argumet goes something like: he's killed people, let him stay there till he rots...
The other side says, much like N. Korea, an open dialog might bring about good things, let's see what happens...the situation has been stagnant for too long. The situation has been stagnant for so long not that we aren't willing to trade with communist countries, or countries that do bad things...Burma ring a bell...but because of our hatred of Castro.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
Unlike you however, I try to hlep you see from a variety of different angles. You drone on and on.
Castro is bad and your argument flawed because you do not agree with me.
Well fine-diddly-ine.
I the over/under is 3 sentances you'll cut and paste from this and my previous post...ignoring the rest.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
'Til their government changes out, at least.
"he's killed people, let him stay there till he rots..."
Hey, you got my argument right for once!
I'll put aside the fact that I never said whether I agreed with the idea of sanctions on NK or not, even though you seem to assume to know. Unless, of course, you're STILL on the wrong topic, which seems to be the case.
"much like N. Korea, an open dialog might bring about good things"
Except for the fact that the situations don't have all that much in common. NK could pose an actual military threat to us, but as far as I know, hasn't slaughtered any innocents lately. Their government has changed out since the last time they started a war. I'd have to do more research to see whether I support lifting sanctions or not, but at first glance, I'd say yeah, but keep an eye on their military. Completely different from Cuba.
Castro's still in charge. He still tramples the rights of his people. He, less than seven years ago, ordered the killing of fourty innocent people for no reason, including a dozen children. He hasn't changed. NK may have.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Well, by all means, show us a little of it. I've completely spelled mine out. You'd do well to do the same.
And if you think my argument is illogical, then pick a freakin' premise and dispute it! I posted the whole thing step by step.
"Castro is bad and your argument flawed because you do not agree with me."
Uh, no. Your argument is flawed because you don't HAVE an argument, or if you do, you refuse to show it. Heck, you don't even know what subject we're talking about, apparently, as you think that the reason we don't trade with Cuba NOW has some relevancy, which is doesn't to the actual subject, being whether we should trade with Cuba AT ALL.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 30, 2000).]
from your Newsmax article (all the news you need to know)
quote:
There were several credible reports of death due to excessive use of force by the police. Members of the security forces and prison officials continued to beat and otherwise abuse detainees and prisoners.
Either we should stop trading with ourselves or stop thinking we're perfect.
It's called diverging opinions. I've showed you what I think, I know what you think. You've waved your dismissive hand. Big did-illy-deal. You seem to think I should say oh,oh...I'd better go run away. Well, I think your wrong and I blow my nose in your direction.
I disaree with your contention that Castro should rot and die with no hands reached out in peace to attempt to resolve the situation.
I've showed you, as well as others have, in several different ways why we should try and open a dialog with Cuba...I'll list a couple of them (but not limited to the following) since you can't seem to remember:
but you keep coming back with the same old tired thing...
What's that sound, it's your mental masterbation. Have a ball....
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 31, 2000).]
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
Oh, and if I might make N.IRL/UK point... While the British army for the most part did conduct itself in a relatively professional manner, you can't deny that the discriminatory conditions imposed on Catholics prior to the Civil Rights movement of the sixties, Internment, and that little eency-teency massacre thing where supposedly the most elite branch of the British army shot civilians then refused to acknowlege making a mistake were rather abusive with regard to human rights.
The point Jay's been making is that very few nations can claim to have a clear slate when it comes to human rights. We either have to let politicians draw an arbitrary (and very fuzzy) line, above which the nation should trade with and below which it shouldn't, or trust the international body set up specifically to regulate this thing (the, *cough* UN, which HRH Omega hasn't mentioned yet) to impose sanctions on nations which are clearly abusers and to let the free market work on the others.
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"When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?"
-Mike Tyson
The thing that got me was that they were referring to the situation in the present tense. And Shik was walking about keeping memebers of the IRA in prison, as far as I can tell. I'm confused as to how that's a civil rights abuse. Unless this is a freedom fighters thing. Nasty old Britian keeps Ireland apart, they take up arms to free their nation, Mel Gibson gets loads of historical facts wrong, blah blah blah.
Still, this is fun, eh?
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
I was indeed talking about the way the British law enforcement agencies conducts their searches & holds people. However, that was not a condemnment of any sort.
I live on the convergence zone of 2 highly Irish areas: New York City & the "working class" areas of Connecticut like Bristol & New Britain & the like. Because of that, that Irish paper (What's it called, "The Voice" or something like that?) sells very well around here, & for years it always attacked the British methods of action.
Now, I don't really CARE what's going on. It doesn't concern me, although it makes great fodder for my wargames. The problem is that most people forget that there's one crucial difference between our legal system & that of about 98% of the Commonwealth: the burden of proof is on the ACCUSED for you guys--"guilty until proven innocent."
That one statement changes EVERYTHING. It gives the state a lot more leeway in things LIKE searches, seizures, arrests, etc. And so some people (Amnesty International for one) feel that this process is a violation of civil rights, that it's 1 step away from "The government says you're evil--get his shit!!"
Like Jay said--it's all about perception: until 1979, Iran was our friend. Until 1989, so was Iraq. Until the Camp David Accords, Egypt was on the "high risk" travel list. It's also about culture. Why does Russia keep getting leaders that give them the shaft? Because at heart, the entire nation is still at the social mentality of 13th-century feudalism. They "officially" change the song & dance routine--"Hey, we're into DEMOCRACY now!!"--& they get aid, trade, help from us. But go beneath the veneer & nothing's really changed at all. The people are still thinking like they were 50 or even 100 years ago, except instead of the Communists or the czars, they fear the mob.
This is why generalizations cannot be made.It's called "national interest." Our treatment of Cuba has long been used against us. It's time to let it go. Hell, Castro doesn't even CALL half the shots he's credited with. It's subdelegated now. And after he dies, do you really think Raul will succeed him? HELL, no. It'll be some Soviet-trained guy who minored in operations with the Russian mafia. watch...I figure about a year to 18 months after Castro's death, the island makes a complete turnaround & sends welcoming feelers to America.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
OK, so you don't recognize the difference between people who WORK for the government doing dispicable things and the government actually ORDERING them to do those things. That's your mistake. And I would point out that when officers HERE are known to be breaking the law, everything nesecary is done to stop them. In CUBA, on the other hand, they apparently get away with it.
And perhaps you've never heard of emphasis? I'd use italics if I knew how.
"trade with Cuba offers a chance to bring it into the community of nations..."
OK, this is part of how this argument SHOULD be run. This is a pro of trading with Cuba. But it doesn't outweigh the con of the fact that it would help bolster an opressive government.
"as sanctions are a limited tool of foreign policy, they can't in and of themselves change a government"
That's not the idea. The sanction isn't supposed to help overthrow Castro. It's simply that trade would help BOLSTER his regieme, and we acknowledge that to be a bad thing. Therefore, we should not trade with him. Therefore, sanction.
"we don't trade with Cuba now, and some people dismiss the idea of trade with Cuba and never will because they hate Castro and many Americans remember the way that the revolution in Cuba took the island away from use by the United States..."
You keep saying this, and I keep telling you that it doesn't matter to this argument, and I couldn't care less. From this point, unless you have a REASON why the reason we don't trade with Cuba affects my reasons why we SHOULDN'T trade with Cuba, I will ingore any further references to it.
Tom:
The UN apparently allows trade with countries like Cuba and China, so if disallowing trade with abusive governments is part of its job, it's not doing it.
Shik:
"I figure about a year to 18 months after Castro's death, the island makes a complete turnaround & sends welcoming feelers to America."
One can only hope.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Omega: Are you saying that you're are a better judge of human rights abuses then the UN? That your posts on this thread are more comprehensive than million dollar reports on abusive incidents undertaken by some of the most intelligent professionals in the world (and paid by pretty well every nation except the US)? Whew. Maybe the world would be a better place if you were the Secretary-General.
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"When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?"
-Mike Tyson
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
But, as said above, what do you mean, that 98% of the Commonwealth uses "Guilty until proven innocent"? Someone has seriously misinformed you...
Strangely, I live in Walthamstow, an area of London with a fairly high black/Asian population. It to has a local minority paper, called "The Voice", and what a load of crap that is too. People beat up in the street cause they're black. Not enough blacks in power. The government hates blacks. Blacks left out of schools. Don King was accussed of match rigging cause he was black. Mike Tyson treated like a criminal because he's black. Church is racist cause there were no black Apostles (okay, that one's made up, but the rest is that type of tat that just serves to get everyone hyped up, while ignoring all other evidence. Don King wasn't accussed of match rigging because he was black. He was accussed because of all the evidence saying he did it.)
Now that was a bit of a tangent. But it had an important lesson. There's a difference between a paper that is generally concerned about minority interests, and another that's just a shit-stirrer.
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited July 31, 2000).]
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
However, after studying this thread closely, I have turned up an interesting parallel...
Omega's arguments, and Jay's counters, and the methods of reasoning (or lack thereof)used therein by both sides, almost EXACTLY mirror the tone of MY arguments with Omega about evolution, except that THIS time it's Jay whose been using the 'either-or' mode of thought (either show that the US's current reasons for not trading with Cuba are justified, or you must trade with Cuba), and Omega's taking steps closer to MY tactics.
I find this endlessly amusing.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
However, I should point out that I did allow for the idea in my evolution arguments that there may be another way that the universe could come to be (besides random chance and intelligent design), but if no one can think of it, and since it seems that those two cover pretty much every possible origin theory, you can't consider it in argument. Thus, either/or reasoning works in that case because there are only two alternatives. (Well, besides steady-state, but the laws of physics don't allow for that.)
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Oh and Omega, not to pass judgement but you sound suspiciously like you're trying to crawl up First's bottom there. Stop it.
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
Try this one on for size...
I think you may need either a new elementary logic book / ego deflater or you are going to continue to get things wrong with your assesments of other arguments.
In the 12th post of this now monstrous thread, Sol made the general argument of why the United States should try and open trade with Cuba. In much of what I posted afterwards, I attempted to buttress Sol's wise words.
Lets't go over these again however.
Since I've tried to point out, apparently in vain, to at least 2 people, is some of the history behind our current non trade status with Cuba. American hubris was the initial reason why we stoped our interactions with the island. Well, to some history is apparently irrelevant in this matter. Hmmm....
Moving on...
I then tried to think of how to make history relevant...so I thought I might attempt to point out that we had traded with another bad Cuban man before Casto...in the form of Batistia.
Answer: The US shouldn't have traded with Batistia either.
Ah, good point, but you miss the fact that we did. Why the difference I wonder. For that particular answer, we have to check the nebulas land of 'I'll get back to you later', 'I don't have an answer', or the dismissive wave of the hand (my personal favorite).
Moving on...
So, then I try to point out the fact that in light of the current lobby effort of "dynamic wealth producing American business owners" have pushed for the United States to liberalize trade with a host of communist countries with poor records on human rights...including China and Vietnam, we have increased trade in those areas.
Why is that I asked? If we trade with them, should we not be consistant and trade with Cuba? Does our historical hatred of Castro enter into the picture at all when the US says "no trade with Cuba!!"
Answer: We shouldn't be trading with them (China and Vietnam) either!!! And don't bring up history anymore you dolt, it's irrelevant!!
Ah. Again, a good point. However the point still stands that the US does contiune trade with those other countries and is in fact strengthing trade with China as the Republican controled House voted to make permanent China's normal trading rights in the United States. But we can just sluff that off can't we? I think not. I never did get any sort of material answer as to why the United States would trade with China and not Cuba in light of the fact that it currently is going on. Fine, it's all well and good to rationalize some sort of answer and say we shouldn't, but in the long run, that is simply running away from the question.
And our feelings toward Castro have no bearing on any policy decision regarding Cuba, ever....yeah, right. History is never immaterial.
Moving on...
Then I try to point out at least some other countries that the US trades with (not including China and Vietnam) that have poor human rights records, authoritarian governments or generally do some things every so often that could be considered bad. Heck, even the US on occasion has it's own problems. Other countryly speaking it's a long list, but Burma for example. With whom do we trade?
Answer: ???
Nebulas answer nether region again. This one was generally ignored by the other side other than to tell me to stop changing the subject. But if pressed, probably would have gotten the same "shouldn't trade with them either" response.
Ah, well, that's a fine percieved answer and a good point. However, now that we're not trading with quite a bit of the world, those aforementioned dynamic wealth producing American business owners are getting rather peeved only having Canada left to sell Coke and Tide to. (As an asside, those American business owners pushed for more trade with China and Vietnam, and it's only the memory of the Castro hatred from really pushing for trade with Cuba right now).
Moving on...
So then I sort of rework Sol's statement with the example of North Korea as an example of how, if the hand of trade and peace is extended to a country with some bad memories attched to it, some good things might happen.
Answer: North Korea is not Cuba and you are a moron for even mentioning it.
Again, a good point. I am a moron, but examples are not supposed to be the exact same situation...they are an example, an illustrative instance as it were . Using North Korea as an illustration of another similar situation, not much happened while we sat on our collective hands and did nothing. Limited trade initiatives see, to be doing some positive things.
So, in general the two asnwers to the question we've come up with:
Camp Omega:
Camp Other:
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 02, 2000).]
OK, one final time:
Q: Should we trade with Cuba?
I fail to see why the fact that we haven't been has any effect on the answer to this question, unless you want to call up some rediculous notions of maintianing foreign policy no matter HOW bad it is, but since no one seems inclined to do that...
"Ah, good point, but you miss the fact that we did [trade with Batista]. Why the difference I wonder. For that particular answer, we have to check the nebulas [sic] land of 'I'll get back to you later'"
No, it wasn't a "I'll get back to you later." It was a "This is completely irrelevant to this argument, and I'm not going to let you drag us off topic." Previous governments of Cuba are irrelevant. Previous and current US foreign policy is irrelevant. My attachment to the word "irrelevant" is irrelevant. What conceivable relevancy could the fact that ten presidents back we made a mistake in trading with a country have to the question of whether we should trade with that country now, when we both have different governments?
"With whom do we trade?"
OK, how 'bout this: we don't trade with anyone who's current government has violated the civil rights of its people. And the government has to have ordered it. Rogue agents don't count.
"Castro should rot and die (you already said I have that one right Omega)"
True, but when I said it, it may have been an oversimplification. If he stepped down voluntarily and handed over power to a civilian democracy, I'd be just as happy. Well, maybe not JUST as happy. I'd get a certain perverse satisfaction from watching such a horrible man "rot and die", but since it would be better for the people of Cuba, I'd rather have it.
"I supect the Omega Camp could easily rationalize trade with the military junta of Burma."
Not knowing much about the situation in Burma, I couldn't say. First might be able to, but he said he probably wouldn't post here again.
"If not, well, then we're not trading with much of the world"
Come on, when was the last time you heard of civilians being killed by the German government? Or Australian (outside of that "Crocidile Dundee" guy, that being an accident)? Chilean? Botswanian? Italian? American?
"[N]o better way to open a society than to encourage the development of economic ties with them."
With which I disagree. Appeasing a dictator has NEVER historically had the intended consequences. It's just made things worse. You know Castro would play it to his advantage if we opened trade with him, thus bolstering his regime. That's bad for everyone, especially the Cubans.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
The point of repealing sanctions on Cuba is NOT about Americans trading with them. As much as it is about your lot very effectively cutting Cuba off from the world at large via your statement that those who trade with Cuba may not trade in the USA. Nice catch 22. Bet Jessie was overjoyed. Since you are always talking about how private citizens will donate to charity and make other benevolent gestures (and my arse is just as likely to sprout oak trees) why don't you let private citizens decide if they wish to trade with Cuba? Wait, I see some tired rebuttal coming in about Evil communists or something.
Since conservatives are very moral , and control the bulk of funds in yer little empire they should not need sanctions to prevent them from trading with Cuba. Wouldn't you say? This is 'just another example of the centre infringing on peoples rights'. (That's your line, by the way). Unless of course you'd like to admit that you have no real reason for opposing trade with Cuba except for the fact that it peeves you that they kicked American business off the island?
On that note, a side point. The Cubans may not allow in US companies even if the sanctions were lifted, what galls most people is the fact that you are dictating trade policy of other groups by preventing them from trading with Cuba. That's called Imperialism. Oh they joys of empire.
Of course, you wouldn't care to admit it. Would you?
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
The government DOES have the right "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations", as stated in article one, section eight of the constitution.
The government has very few inherant duties. One of which is to deal with external powers. This would include regulating commerce. Though I wouldn't include preventing ALL involvement with Cuba in that power, personally. Just all direct trade. If Coke decided to trade with Cuba, I'd submit that they have the right to do so, as long as they don't ship directly from the US. Ship it to, say, Mexico, THEN to Cuba (assuming Mexico would allow it). That'd be outside the jurisdiction of the US. 'Course, the expense might be prohibitive.
"Since you are always talking about how private citizens will donate to charity and make other benevolent gestures"
Since you obviously don't believe this, I suggest you find the stats for charitable donation in the US for the eighties. Heck, maybe even now. Haven't seen any info for the last ten years or so.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Why won't free trade with Cuba encourage the growth of a middle class?
Why won't this middle class begin to seek political representation to go with their newfound economic prosperity?
Why won't this process lead to a more free Cuba?
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
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L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
To answer your question with a couple 'choose one' options:
A.) Because under a Communist system, these are no classes allowed? That's why it's called Communist? Redistribution of "wealth"?
B.) Because all funds, under Communism, (or any other dictatorship) are property of the government, and must therefore go where the dictator feels they will do the most good (usually, his pocket)?
Incidentally, I was reading something (wish I could remember what, so I could cite it) in the regular media that showed that the so-called ban on trade with Cuba is an illusion, and how thousands of US citizens tour Cuba each year ANYWAY, and how that illegal trade accounts for millions of dollars, and a very significant percentage of Cuba's enonomy as it is.
I submit that if we'd been able to cut off this illegal trade as well, Castro would likely have fallen already.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
If Cuba refuses, then their economy will be completely overwhelmed by ours. It would be so now, if they had any real interaction with it. But instead they get to remain isolated and pretend that their system is superior.
Now then, replace all those "will be"'s with "I believe it is likely", because the language is getting a bit strong and I don't believe in many absolutes...
But look at it this way. Where has the USA's policy of isolation worked? Has it overthrown Castro? Hussien? Milosevic? On the other hand, the case could be made that direct economic competition put an end to the Soviet Union. (Though one could argue that the mafia capitalism they got in exchange isn't much better.)
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.