This is topic How to be a good Liberal in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/11/502.html

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
Since this is as much political as it is humor, I think I'll place it in here...

How to be a good Liberal


1.You have to believe that the same teacher who can�t teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

2.You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese communists.

3.You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

4.You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth�s climate and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

5.You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand; in short, you support protecting the guilty and killing the innocent.

6.You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

7.You have to believe that hunters don�t care about nature, but some activists who�ve never been outside of Seattle do.

8.You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

9.You have to believe that the military, not corrupt politicians start wars.

10.You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

11.You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

12.You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee or Thomas Edison.

13.You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn�t worked anywhere it�s been tried, is because the right people haven�t been in charge.

14.You have to believe that parades displaying drag queens and transvestites should be constitutionally protected while public display of religious images should be illegal.

15.You have to believe that illegal political contributions by the Chinese government are somehow in the best interest of the United States.

------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
You know, American politics doesn't seem to be based so much on "I support this and this", but "Don't vote for him. He smells. And he's possibly kissed another man. He likes looking at small boys. Vote for me. I'm good."

Followed by a little soundbite.

------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 


Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
Given that I'm a centre-type of person (that officially makes me Liberal in this country) I'll answer these quotes one by one, provided that I have an answer to them......

1.You have to believe that the same teacher who can�t teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

No they aren't. My, what strange things kids learn today.

2.You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese communists.

I obviously don't believe this statement. But I am not going to argue the Pros and Cons of Gun Control, since I am kinda through with the subject for the time being.

3.You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

I can't say much about this statement since I don't know anything about art history. But I will say that art doesn't grow on trees.

4.You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth�s climate and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

It's not the SUVs I'm worried about. It's those companies that either throw waste in the wilderness or spew large amounts of pollutants the size of Montana in the sky. And get away with it too.

5.You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand; in short, you support protecting the guilty and killing the innocent.

I'm against Abortion, to an extent. But I'm also against Capital Punishment, again, to an extent. There are cases in which I'd like to see the bastard let out in the deep void of space where his body will explode due to excessive decompression *thinks*, hey, that's another way to do it.

6.You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

The government is never off the hook. Example, Sudan.

7.You have to believe that hunters don�t care about nature, but some activists who�ve never been outside of Seattle do.

Explain the logic of this statement to me. How does a hunter care about nature when he's got a shotgun in hand?

8.You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

No I don't

9.You have to believe that the military, not corrupt politicians start wars.

How about a Corrupt Military? Anyone remember Pinochet?

10.You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

A constitution whose Second Amendment is completely outdated.

11.You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

Depends on who pays the low taxes (provided that it is not the filthy rich) and where the Taxes go. I know where my ATM fees go. But of course I don't mind low taxes, given the amount of pay I receive.

12.You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee or Thomas Edison.

Who are those two ladies? And I DO know that the three men have some vital role in the history of this planet.

13.You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn�t worked anywhere it�s been tried, is because the right people haven�t been in charge.

That's right.

14.You have to believe that parades displaying drag queens and transvestites should be constitutionally protected while public display of religious images should be illegal.

Though I wholeheartedly support giving rights to gays and lesbians, these "pride" parades are basically overdoing it.

15.You have to believe that illegal political contributions by the Chinese government are somehow in the best interest of the United States.

Well, that's something I've never heard about. And would a true Liberal believe that anyway? I don't think so.

To round this off, whoever wrote this article obviously doesn't know what a liberal is. Almost every single comment present here is way off the mark.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 03, 2000).]
 


Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
Yep, Tahna, you are definitely a liberal.

------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Tahna:

10: "A constitution whose Second Amendment is completely outdated."

The second ammendment will never be outdated. It will be needed as long as criminals pose a threat to law-abiding citizens, and as long as the government has the power to take away your freedom. To coin a phrase, it is "nesecary for the security of a free state."

13: "That's right."

*L* So find the right people. Socialism requires an all-powerful government, and power corrupts. That means anyone. You will NEVER find people who will not become corrupt in running a socialist state. _I_ probably would.

And I think the point is that these are all things that liberals and the liberal media believe. Every single one of these views is supported by the Democratic party. I'd like to get my hands on a copy of my platform when they finalize it, and compare it to this.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
 
I find both your definition of Liberal and the idea that the US media is liberally biased very funny. The Democrats and Republicans are both shades of the same colour buddy. Perhaps you should look at the larger world to get an idea of what true leftwingism is, the Democrats just don't qualify.

Just on a side note, does it bother you at all that the US in any given year uses 40% of the worlds resources? (Note, it has 5% of the worlds population).

------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
'The second ammendment will never be outdated. It will be needed as long as criminals pose a threat to law-abiding citizens, and as long as the government has the power to take away your freedom. To coin a phrase, it is "nesecary for the security of a free state."'

Still just a teansy-weansy bit paranoid are we?

------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Liam:

There's a difference between paranoia and legitimate suspicion. The government HAS the power to take my freedom. Sure, they're PROBABLY not going to use it, but that's not good enough. I'm not willing to go on faith in the goodness of our leaders. I need assurances. Thus guns.

As for criminals, that's still a legitimate reason to own a gun.

Daryus:

"Just on a side note, does it bother you at all that the US in any given year uses 40% of the worlds resources?"

Not in the slightest. Who else would use them? Sure, let's send all the crude oil in the world to Namibia. What are they gonna do with it? We're the ones that CAN use them, so why shouldn't we? The sheer amount of resources in a country isn't going to affect the lifestyle of its people all that much.

"I find both your definition of Liberal and the idea that the US media is liberally biased very funny."

Let's start with the media: watch MSNBC some time if you can. One reporter had Cheney on, and asked him some questions about his voting record. The problem: he didn't even look up the voting record! He just got info off of www.bushcheney.net, which is actually run by the democratic party! Didn't bother to verify it, just took it at face value. If you care to look at the site, I'll shoot it down. Otherwise, just take my word for it: it's a complete misrepresentation.

And when was the last time Gore got asked a tough question, like, "You attack Cheney on his abortion voting record, but are you aware that in thirteen of fourteen cases, you voted the same way?" Yet they say that Bush is "sticking a thumb in the eye" of the democrats when he tours states that Clinton won on his way to Philly. Then it's picked up on, and Bush is asked loaded questions, like, "Governer, why are you sticking a thumb in the eye of the Democratic party?"

"No bias" my foot.

The democrats and the reps are completely different animals (no elephant jokes, please). Read the democrat platform when they finalize it. Compare it to the republican. Heck, see if you can find their '96 platforms. It'd probably work just as well. As the first thing that jumps to mind, the Republicans want to fix the overtaxation that lead to the surplus. The Democrats want to spend my money on things I never authorized them to spend it on. The Republicans care about the constitution. The democrats don't.

Hardly the same.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
"I'm not willing to go on faith in the goodness of our leaders. I need assurances."

Ah. "I need assurances". The cry of every religious person.

------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Anybody who can say DNC platform=liberalism and liberalism=DNC platform has a severe case of ignorance to contend with.

------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 


Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
If you need more proof that the Democrats and the media are on the same page, take that whole gravitas business...

Alan Hunt said it once refering to Bush's lackings, and for the next two weeks the media personalities were ALL using it as if they were the first to do so!

------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
 


Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
Here's why I said "That's right" to number 13.

Socialism (aka The Far Left) is basically made up of different groups of people with different views. You've got the homeless activists here, lower-class activists there, Union Bosses education activists, health care activists, environmental groups, gay-rights activists, groups calling for the preservation of John Lennon's Body, etc. Basically a lot of special interest groups.

On the other side of the coin is Capitalism. Now compared to Socialism, Capitalism has only one view. Money. Dollar Signs. Bars of Gold. You name it. And because of this, they all have a pretty clear vision on how to achieve their goals.

Because the Socialists have diverging and differing views, it is VERY hard to find common ground. The environmentalists would pass laws strengthening the protection of the environment. The Homeless Activists would pass laws for the creation of Affordable housing. The Union bosses would pass laws strengthening the unions.

This results in several problems:
- The Socialists don't know politics very well. As a result, they would pass any law with reckless abandon, and with minimal consultation who would receive a negative impact under these laws.
- If those who are negatively affected by these laws, they will complain. And if the Socialists listen, they would end up significantly watering down their OWN laws, angering their OWN fellow activists in the process.
- Even if they passed all the laws that they wanted to pass, they have NO IDEA what to do next. Each subsequent minute is fraught with hesitation and indecision.
- At this point, you'll have other special-interest groups who are complaining to the Socialist government on how THEIR interests are not being met. The Government can pass the laws requested by these other groups, but OTHER special interest groups would complain how these laws are bad for their ideals and instead want these OTHER laws passed. And if the government complies, yet ANOTHER special interest group starts to complain. And so it continues, an endless babblethon between each and every socialist.
- In the process, everyone gets sick and tired of this government for many different reasons and wonder why they elected them in the first place.

Simply put, the Socialists need to get their act together before they start to take power in ANY government. The only good socialist would be one who is able to reconcile the differences between their own special interest groups BEFORE they can go up against the Capitalists. But then again, the perfect Socialist would be hated, not only by the Capitalists, but by their own fellow Socialists as well. So much for co-operation.

But then, given the argumentative nature of these groups, the perfect Socialist Government may not happen for a very long time.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 03, 2000).]
 


Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
What a cute American-centric list. Oh well...once more unto the breach.

1.You have to believe that the same teacher who can�t teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

Hell....some of the teachers I've met shouldn't be qualified to teach...period. Frankly though, the're going to learn one way or another, in a alley-way or in a classroom full of snickering adolescents. Might as well make it pseudo-scientific.

2.You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese communists.

Dangerous is such an ambiguous term. Chinese communists have an ability to wipe out millions of people, true. But the US has used nukes... China hasn't. But to be honest, nuclear weapons are dangerous in any person's or government's hands. Probability-wise, my chances are higher that I'll be shot rather than nuked, my chances are even higher that I'll be hurt in a traffic accident, China won't nuke Canada...igloos are impervious to nukes

3.You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

Wut you talkin' bout Willis?

4.You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth�s climate and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

Honestly, both theories have merit. But with every scientific theory, there is doubt. If there is even the slightest chance global warming occurs....why give some moron the ability to drive everywhere with four-wheel drive and all-terrain handling...in bumper to bumper traffic. Drive a fuel-efficient car, at least you won't look as silly when you complain about gas prices.

5.You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand; in short,you support protecting the guilty and killing the innocent.

I support both...why? Overpopulation, thats why. (Wait a sec...maybe I should support distributing guns to all US citizens afterall)

6.You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

Incorrect, they both create oppression. Oppression is part of human nature afterall.

7.You have to believe that hunters don�t care about nature, but some activists who�ve never been outside of Seattle do.

You don't show that you care about your significant other by levelling a fully automatic weapon in their face...same thing here.

8.You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

Wut you talkin' bout Willis?

9.You have to believe that the military, not corrupt politicians start wars.

*sigh* Once again, they both do. Hell...all people create wars with each other, its called human nature.

10.You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

Nahhhh thats absolutely incorrect
....its bad because it supports the whole US Constitution

11.You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

*sigh* The're both too high....whats up with this?

12.You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee or Thomas Edison.

I vaguely recall doing a project on the importance of Thomas Edison...know about the others...and have no clue what the first two are. For all I know, they could be starship classes.

13.You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn�t worked anywhere it�s been tried, is because the right people haven�t been in charge.

...because the right people haven't, don't, and never will exist. There can never be a totally fair and objective leader, thus socialism fails. Go human nature.

14.You have to believe that parades displaying drag queens and transvestites should be constitutionally protected while public display of religious images should be illegal.

nahhhh.....they should all be displayed. Then we can have Orangemen clashes, Crusades. and all sorts of fun. Religious conflict and destruction is great for stopping overpopulation.

15.You have to believe that illegal political contributions by the Chinese government are somehow in the best interest of the United States.

Nah....I only believe the legal political contributions by the Chinese goverment are in their best interest. But seriously, its not like the United States government has never illegally funded foreign organizations or governments. Stop being so hypocritical.

Omega: slight difference.....the United States is not the only place that can use them....its just the only place that can afford to use 40% of the world's resources... Before you get all namsy-pantsy, I'm not judging...its just a slight distinction.

------------------
1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost

[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited August 02, 2000).]
 


Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
About the Second Amendment, the reason I say it is outdated is because of an article written in the Straight Dope (Baloo, can you pull it up please) which said something about refining the Second Amendment for Today's Society. Something that I think should definitely be done.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Liam:

I trust God. I don't trust humans. Simple, really.

Tom:

Well, let's look at the DNC's general views. Higher taxes, punish the rich, divide and conquor, screw the constitution, give the government power over EVERYTHING. Well, the first and last ceratinly sound liberal to me, by definition.

Jeff:

Rush did a Nexus search for "gravitas". Turns out that on the 24th, 25th, and 26th, the word gravitas was used in more referenced news stories than in all of June.

The earliest reference listed was in '96, about Cheney, ironically.

Mucus:

3: "Wut you talkin' bout Willis?"

This is in response to the people who claim that if you want to cut the blatantly unconstitutional spending on art grants, then you hate art, or some other such crap.

"Honestly, both theories have merit."

Well, global warming doesn't really have merit on the scale of human greenhouse gas production. Average temperature has been decreasing steadily, which is contradictory to the theory of global warming. Reminds me of the conference in DC on global warming last winter. They had to call it off because of two feet of snow.

5: "I support both...why? Overpopulation, thats why."

Well, if you're gonna take that stance, let's say that the government set up a death lottery. The population is fixed at, say, 300,000k (US), and when we go over that by however much, the government randomly selects that number of social security numbers. Sound barbaric? It is. This planet can support quite a few more people than we already have.

6: "Incorrect, they both create oppression. Oppression is part of human nature afterall."

True, but at least with business, you get to choose your opressor, and you can become your own opressor, if you so choose.

7: "You don't show that you care about your significant other by levelling a fully automatic weapon in their face"

But it's not like hunters destroy nature. They'd be fools to. They require nature to exist for their form of entertainment. Not that I like hunting, in concept, but...

8: "Wut you talkin' bout Willis?"

That's a reference to the refusal in some schools to give kids bad grades in order to keep from hurting their feelings, no matter how badly they do. It's involved in that whole "creative spelling" thing, where any spelling is allowed, because telling a kid he's wrong would hurt his feelings, and other such crap.

11: "The're [sic] both too high....whats up with this?"

You pay a buck fifty to use the ATM of a company who you don't patronize. I'd say that it's a pretty good deal for the convenience.

12: Wasn't Steinem an advocate of birth control or abortion or something?

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
Omega:
3. Ok then...thats crap
4. With global warming...the question is...why even bother taking the risk? Just play it safe..its not very hard.
5. *sigh* I support them both because they are the most "humane" ways of doing it. Killing people who don't deserve to live and killing those who aren't wanted by their own parents seems to be a "good" place to start if you have to start anyways.
And sure..the world can support more now, but look long-term...we have to start sometime.
6. Exactly...its a case of lesser evils. But no matter what, you're making a deal with a devil
7. Hunters aren't exactly known for long-term thinking, I think you're giving them more credit then you should.
Think passenger pigeon, dodos, and all sorts of fun animals...now dead
8. Ok thats crap too.
11. Its all electronic commerce. I doubt it costs them a buck fifty (you're probably talking American dollars as well) to complete a simple computer-to-computer transaction, even allowing for a healthy profit margin.

------------------
Lori, you lack...subtlety. You came from a military family; I knew both your parents very well. They thought in black and white. You think in black and white. No
shades of grey whatsoever...and diplomacy is all shades of grey. - Star Trek: The Lost Years

A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
 


Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
Margaret Sanger was one of the pioneers of birth control and deserves to be included in the history books. I don't think that there is a person here who can legitimately claim that the revolution began by Sanger in the area of birth control, and later moving on into the realm of women's rights is not significant.

In the past few years there has been a big push in the teaching of history to move beyond the old white male political narrative and include women and minorities who were as important but for different areas. The real problem is scope and amount of information.

Sure Jefferson gets his 3 paragraphs in the vague and very general high school history books. Is that enough on Jefferson, the walking Enigma in pants? Not a bit.
The question is who do we leave out...Harriet Tubman? Fredrick Douglass? or any number of people who derserve their 3 paragraphs too?

Obviously one can point to any number of books on Jefferson, Douglass or Edison that are available to read outside of the high school text...but since history is given such limited treatment in general, that may be the only real option for the student for whom Jefferson excites the imagination.

As for the rest...argue amongst yourselves...

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Socialism has never worked? WTF?

Again American ignorance seems to be ruining this discussion. To be blunt, your American political spectrum is do goddamn boring that its no wonder you have trouble comprehending basic political ideology.

I get the distinct impression Socialism is automatically equated to Communism by many of you here. But as Tahna has outlined, it is far more than that. Socialism is as different to communism as conservatism is to fascism. If you want to call communism a branch or sub-ideology of socialism (as some political scientists do), feel free to, but then Hitler and Pinochet becomes conservatives.

Anyway, it would be wrong to look at the failure of Communism/Marxism as a failure of socialism. Indeed, socialism has flourished pretty much everywhere outside of the United States (even in Canada, before certain Messrs Clark, Harcourt & Rae wrecked it). Have a look at this listing of the member parties of the Socialist International an lo and behold, you might just see governing parties... like the governments of two of the three biggest economies in Europe, perhaps?

I'm not a socialist, personally. The do, admittedly, often suffer from a distinct lack of common sense. But it can't be written off as an ideology because communists as evil.

And before I shut up, I came across the fable of Mouseland by Canadian socialist legend Tommy Douglas when looking for socialist info. It's worth a read, actually, even if you're so conservative that you think Stalin and Blair's platforms are interchangable.

------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Tom's right about one thing. Communism and socialism are totally different things. Let's use my prefered scale of political philosophy, based on the ammount of power given the government, which IMNHO tends to explain things far more easily than most.

The furthest right on this scale is no government whatsoever. With basic human nature, this means anarchy. Obviously undesirable. Communism also fits under this heading, since it requires that there be no government. 'Course, since that means that there'd be no one to protect citizens from criminals or to settle disputes, it'd deteriorate into, you guessed it, anarchy. That's why a truely communist society has never lasted.

Then you get to the other end of the scale, in which you have a pretty much all-powerful government. The archetype would be the Borg, or the 1984 civilization, where the government controls EVERY LITTLE THING. But as far as realism is concerned, this inludes socialism (which supposedly has the same goal as communism, being equality, but with an all-powerful government instead of none at all, which ruins the whole idea), fascism (which I gather to be a government which is basically reactionary, ie. does whatever is "nesecary" at the time), etc.

Now I have no problem with true communists. They're not evil, they just need to realize that their system is impossible to implement. DT admitted that, once. But, to use that as an example, he said the next best thing is socialism. I never got a chance to point out that they have very little in common, except for stated goals and the fact that neither can possibly accomplish them.

Communists are misguided, but essentially harmless (short of being violent, which I believe defeats teh basic philosophy). There's nothing they can do to try to implement their beliefs. Socialists are far more dangerous, especially the ones that believe that, as above, the only reason socialism hasn't worked is that the right people haven't been in charge. They can actually TRY, and doing so screws pretty much everyone. So I guess everyone DOES end up equal. Equally miserable.

And I give Canada until 2020 to either figure out that socialism doesn't work, or fall apart. No socialist democracy can last long.

And I'm under the impression that your medical system is screwed up already, thanks to socialism. Rah.

*reads back*

OK, I just realized that this is pretty off-topic. But I spent twenty minutes writing it, so I'm going to post it anyway. So there.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Manifesto of the Communist Party, by Karl Marx.

Though I get the impression that actual, you know, facts, probably aren't welcome in this little argument.

------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
The best example of a system of government under which enforcement of social equality by an all-pervasive government reaches its natural end, can be found in the story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut, a copy of which can be found here: http://www.crosslink.net/~jbloom/harrison.html

And now a brief quote by a guy named "Sarge" in another thread from a discussion board far, far away...

"First of Two, (do you mind if I call you 1 of 2?), I have a theory about why the PC crowd is so often the same as the gun control crowd. The PCs and gun controls both want the government to protect us from all the bad things out there. I wonder if they've forgotten that we are a government for, by, and of the people. We should be doing everything we can by ourselves, then looking to the government if we need a little more help, rather than trying to get the government to do all the work for us. JFK had the right idea when he said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."
More government and more laws are not the answer to our problems, they are the source of many of our problems."


------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi


[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 03, 2000).]
 


Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
If there was some possible way of enforcing it...I'd call you on that 2020 bet Omega
Americans have been waiting since the days of "manifest destiny" for Canada to break up and they can go on waiting quite a while more...
With their couple centuries of history, its a tad premature to say that either America or Canada have been "successes" credibly.

------------------
Lori, you lack...subtlety. You came from a military family; I knew both your parents very well. They thought in black and white. You think in black and white. No
shades of grey whatsoever...and diplomacy is all shades of grey. - Star Trek: The Lost Years

A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Just look up the governer of Tennessee, Mucus.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
Yeah, he can direct you to the state department of Trailer Parks where you can find Omega's address.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

------------------
Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Well, he won't be governer for much longer, actually. He tried to ram in income tax down our throats, which we didn't need and is unconstitutional in TN. Whilst we actually do have a very slight budget problem, it's really due to the fact that TennCare is out of control, not due to any lack of revenue. Oddly enough, it's based on Mrs. Clinton's ideas.

And I'll have you know that I live in a rather nice house, thank you very much.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Income Tax? Heavens! What an evil concept. Only Liberals would advocate that!

------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
What's that I hear? It's a liberal, attacking what no one said.

I have no problem with income tax, in principle. But we didn't need one, we didn't want one, it's illegal here, and he tried to pass it anyway. He actually threatened to arrest the entire legislature.

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Well, any state that keeps it illegal is seriously, um, demented. Considering Herr Omega, Mr. Archconservative himself finds income tax acceptable, you've gotta be pretty far right to make it illegal.

------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
We pay income tax. Must be that ultra socalist labour party at work.

------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited August 05, 2000).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Just what, exactly, makes an income tax a GOOD thing, simply by virtue of its existence?

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi



 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Bingo, First. We have a sales tax. It works. We get all the money we need (or would if those MORONS would fix TennCare). We're one of nine states with no income tax. I seem to recall something similar happening in, I believe, NH. They went from one of the lowest taxed states to the highest.

"Well, any state that keeps it illegal is seriously, um, demented... you've gotta be pretty far right to make it illegal."

We didn't make it illegal. It's an example of actually following the constitution. Our constitution doesn't make provisions for an income tax, so we can't have one without an ammendment, which the people are unwilling to make. It wasn't allowed on a national level until an ammendment was passed, either.

And I would ask exactly WHY we'd be demented, not to increase the amount of power the government has over us when there's no need to?

------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw


 




© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3