Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Is Georgie canon?

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I went here just in case someone gets pissed off or something. Do I know?

Ok, let's see here. Yes, I was thinking about people that have been canonized, generally for being very nice to many others for a long time, like S:t Helena, Jeanne D'Arc and soforth.

Then I remembered another tale that I've never gotten any new info about, namely that of S:t George And The Dragon. I don't pretend to know anything about classifications of saints, but as canonizations go I've heard it can take generations for the Vatican to make up their collective mind about a bloke, so nothing can go wrong, no embarrasing news (Aahh, he WAS gay!!! *stroke*).

So, how could they have overlooked a guy that claimed he had killed a 20-foot dragon, hmm? I'd really like to know how he got off with that ol' kneeslapper.

I'd also like to know about the story itself, George and the Dragon. I've only heard "he killed a dragon". How? Where? Why? To avenge whom?

Please help me understand S:t George.

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Ready for the action now, Dangerboy
Ready if I'm ready for you, Dangerboy
Ready if I want it now, Dangerboy?
How dare you, dare you, Dangerboy?
How dare you, Dangerboy?
I dare you, dare you, Dangerboy...

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

George was a Christian martyr who died early in the history of the church. There isn't really any historical information about him, other then that.

Now, Saint George went on to star in some increasingly bombastic tales, including one where he was helping the Franks fight in the Crusades, and of course the slaying of the dragon. He's the patron saint of England, and apparently specifically England. He was also the patron saint of some other states, like Genoa and Venice.

Apparently he fell out of favor after the formation of the Anglican Church, and now only gets a minor holiday. A quick search reveals that his name lives on in a number of rugby teams, however, which may or may not make up for it.

As to why he killed a dragon...well, what else are brave young knights supposed to do?

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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
--
Ambrose Bierce
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! It's useless to struggle.

Posted by Xentrick (Member # 64) on :

Look out! It's coming right at us!

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Believe me, the dragons are none too pleased with the concept.

Anyways, they canonized that creep Cyril of Alexandria (he was they guy who incited his follwoers to riot, murder Hypatia, and burn the Library of Alexandria), too. They even canonized guys who hated and persecuted each other, on occasion. (Cyril of Alexandria deposed a man who is not Saint John Chrysostom, etc.)

Loonies.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Interesting. So AFTER George had been canonized people started conjuring up stories involving him and a dragon?

But how could this apocrypha rise to legendhood? We have two grand statues of him here in Stockholm (and one hospital). I still don't understand...

But as you say, First, it seems the canonizER's judgement has been subject to arbitrary decisions on more than one occasion.
Well I still feel there's more to this than meets my brain...

My God, Man! I may have to...*psychoviolins* VISIT A LIBRARY!! *thunder*
Heeeelp!!!

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

He's got a flag to. You know the English flag? That's the St George cross that is. Excited, aren't you?

BTW, I've never seen "S:t" before. Where'd that abreviation come from?

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Oh, that's a different way, yes. We use it in Sweden, but I think some other countries are involved as well.

So they Junion Jack is composed of St George? Well put me in a dress an' call me Susie!

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Actually Susie, it's composed of the English, Scotish, and, er, Northern Irish flags.

The Welsh don't get a look in, because a dragon doesn't quite match with the others. And they all smell to. Natch.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

There's a town here in NB called Saint George

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"Incest! A game the whole family can play!"
-Jonah Rapp

Posted by Constellation of One (Member # 332) on :

Besides, I don't think the Welsh particularly want to be included on the Union Jack. At least, the Welsh I spoke with during my last visit felt that way. Give Wales time and they'll go the same way that Scotland seems to be going, taking back what the limeys stole - their nationhood.

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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

PsyLiam said Wales have a dragon as their symbol.
I think we're on to something here...

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The red cross on white is St. George's cross, representing England. The white 'X' on blue is St. Andrew's cross, for Scotland. The red 'X' on white, I believe is St. Patrick's cross, for (Northern) Ireland. Now you know the secret of the Union Jack. Feel proud...

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Ahem...The "X?!?"

The proper term is "saltire." So there.

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"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Yeah, give it enough time, and the Welsh will be completly seperate. As will Scotland. And Ireland will be one country again. This is what everyone wants. And it will happen soon.

And shortly after, England will become the 52nd US state.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

No, next in line for the 52nd, 53rd, 54th, and 55th US states are New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, and Newfoundland when Qu�b�c finally separates...

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"Incest! A game the whole family can play!"
-Jonah Rapp

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

You realize, of course, that no place is going to become a US state, unless the people vote for it. Remember that little island called Puerto Rico?

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I'm betting Japan, personally...

And exactly what do you guys assume will the the fifty-first?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I would be immensely surprised if there was one anytime soon.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Just to get some closure here, guys...
My motives for starting this thread was to learn more about St George, which you have helped with commendably, and also learn why the stories were formed despite their unrealistic contents, since this George obviously existed, once.

But how does these legends begin? Does every newly appointed saint get some tidbit-legend to go with him/her so that people will cherish them?
Does all saints have attributes that you can "be part of" if you pray to them? St Blah of the vagabond (pray to him for safe journeys), St What of fertility (GWS)...

Isn't there saints that were just good people, without having to catch the greatest fish in the sea or kill an enormous bear, or dragon for that matter, or destroy one of the seven wonders of the ancient world...

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Puerto Rico isn't a state mostly because right now they get the benefits of statehood with none of the responsibilities. They seem to like it that way... make of that what you will.

Other statehood movements I've heard of on occasion:
New York City
Washington, D.C.
East and West Kansas
North and South California (not to be confused with Baja California)
Guam
Dividing Texas (Texas, as part of its admission, reserved the right to subdivide into up to five states, should they decide the situation warranted it.) *And in fact, this actually happens in the 3rd volume of Harry Turtledove's "Great War" alternate history; "Breakthroughs."*

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

It won't happen, for the simple reason that 51 isn't as nice a number as 50.

Plus, no-one wants to join the US. It has bad BO and doesn't realise.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Then there's the ANTI-statehood movement: every 6 years or so, Vermont has a referendum on seceding from the Union & reestablishing itself as a sovereign nation again.

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"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't think Vermont ever was sovereign. It was created out of part of New York and part of New Hampshire.

We probably won't add any new states, since it would mean changing the flag. Kind of like: "Go to red alert." "Are you certain, sir? It would mean changing the bulb..."

As for why none of the saints are just nice people... Why would they canonize someone for that? If you want to be saint, you have to do something outrageous to "prove" that you've got Yahweh and/or Jesus backing you up... :-)

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

:::in best John McLaughlin voice::: WRONG!!

The area that is now Vermont was technically part of New York, but was also laid claim to by New Hampshire. On 15 January 1777, the settlers in the area declared themselves an independent republic, taking the name "New Connecticut." In July of that same year, they adopted their first constitution & took the present name of Vermont (from the French "vert"=green & "mont"=mountain).

New York & New Hampshire still claimed the areas, but Vermont ignored said claims. In 1783, Washington wrote in a letter that he thought it might be necessary to send troop to overthrow the Vermont government; this never came to pass & the Republic of Vermont existed for 14 years. Its troubles with New York were settled when they paid that state the then-whopping sum of $30,000; this also helped to clear up the claim problems with New Hampshire & paved the way for Vermont to be admitted to the Union as the 14th state on 4 March 1791.

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"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Was "The Republic of New Connecticut" recognized by any other country, or it exist in the minds of a few New Englanders only?

I mean, calling yourself an independent state is one thing. But it's getting OTHER countries to call you one that is the true measure of statehood.

Otherwise, you'd have wackos all over declaring themselves "The Free and Independent Republic of Bob" just to get out of paying taxes.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

They were recognized enough by the US, which as I recall, wasn't recognized by ANYone until they begged the French for help in 1778.

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"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I believe the issue of state secession was decided, rather decisively, about 135 years ago.

And I recall hearing that the Texas thing was actually an urban legend. Anyone know for sure?

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

What about Lee? The patron saint of chicken korma!

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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.

[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited September 08, 2000).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

*drools* Mmm...Lee

er, sorry. Let's try again.

*drools* Mmm...Chicken Korma with Lee.

D'oh!

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

...and let's not fail to mention the entire Conch Republic thing, what, twenty years ago? The Florida Keys were de-facto independent for three or four days, IIRC.

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Jackpot! I found THE list of saints and angels, at saints.catholic.org! They have a FAQ too, that'll come in handy. There are many St Georges though, this will take time...

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, it seems he's the patron saint for England and Catalonia.

Eine quote: "Pictures of St. George usually show him killing a dragon to rescue a beautiful lady. The dragon stands for wickedness. The lady stands for God's holy truth.
St. George was a brave martyr who was victorious over the devil. He was a soldier in the army of the Roman Emperor Diocletian, and he was one of the Emperor's favorite soldiers.

Now Diocletian was a pagan and a bitter enemy to the Christians. He put to death every Christian he could find. George was a brave Christian, a real soldier of Christ. Without fear, he went to the Emperor and sternly scolded him for being so cruel.
Then he gave up his position in the Roman army. For this he was tortured in many terrible ways and finally beheaded.

So boldly daring and so cheerful was St. George in declaring his Faith and in dying for it that Christians felt courage when they heard about it. Many songs and poems were written about this martyr. Soldiers, especially, have always been devoted to him."

So the paintings and statues have always been symbols for the struggle against evil, hmm. The seven death-sins fits nicely into the dragons inventory.

I wonder what his real name was, if he was roman. Jorge, Giorgios?
I mean, the english habit of renaming people in the bible and general history can be confusing. I don't think there were many jews in the bible ages named Luke and Mark.

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

And the 12th disciple; Ian.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, I seem to recall that Luke was a Gentile, not a Jew...

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

It was just an example, teasen.

If the 12th disciple was Ian, then who was Rufus (Chris Rock)?

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Rufus was George Carlin's character in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. :-)

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What a coincedence! I just downloaded the most famous standup-gigs FROM Carlin, a couple of days ago!
"I don't have pet-peeves here, I have major psychotic fucking hatreds..." He's cool.

No, my good man, I meant in "Dogma".
And yes, it says here in IMDB, Chris Rock is listed as Rufus the "13th" apostle. That was funny.
"Wait, you knew Jesus Christ?
-Knew him??? Shiet, that dude owes me five bucks!"

�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited September 16, 2000).]