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Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
Since you liberals just love attacking Omega, I think I'll offer a better target.

Issue: Abortion

There is a case in New Mexico about a man who punched his 2 month pregnant wife in the stomach. This killed the child, and the man was placed in jail for the murder of the unborn child.

Does this constitute as rights for the unborn child? If the answer is yes, then when are these rights granted? I think we can all agree that it would be when it is considered life.

When it is considered life? This is clearly a medical and scientific question.

* Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

* Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

* Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."

There are countless journals and medical books that will agree that life does indeed begin at conception. Denying this fact is no longer of philosophy or religious views. Its a matter of stupidity.

If life begins at conception, it therefore is entitled to rights of a human being, ie the right to life.

The woman has the right to her body, but does she have the right to her child's life? Does the woman have more right to kill her growing child than the child's right to live? I doubt you can find proof of this.

I am sure that everyone would agree that every life is precious, then why not that of an unborn child? Why should we allow the killing of innocent children?

Solution: I believe that the best way to stop unwanted pregnancies is to stop the process by which they are created. Men and women should stop having sex outside of marriage. Sex is NOT a recreational function. It is a way of sharing yourself with someone you love completely. It is also the way in which we pro-create. Don't want to have a child? Don't have sex. It is as simple as that. We must teach our children this in order to stop what I consider manslaughter on innocent, helpless beings.

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
 

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
While I agree with most of your points, I believe there needs to be an exception, namely the women who were done over and left pregnant by sexual predators.

Abortion should be done in such a circumstance especially if the woman is straight as an arrow. Her rights to a normal life were violated (as well as the rights to her body) the moment that pervert forced himself on her. Forcing her to bear the child of that predator not only adds insult to injury, emotionally and physically, but it further violates her right to a normal life, given the fact that she was not responsible for her own pregnancy.

I am pro-life for the most part. If a sexual pervert did over my girlfriend and got her pregnant, she would no doubt opt for an abortion. And I would support her under such a circumstance, 100%, no strings attached.

That child of a predator only serves as a gruesome reminder to that woman of what that Predator did to her in the first place. And need I not remind you of what if the Predator wanted access to his child?

Can of Worms? In this circumstance, yes. The thing is, I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited December 11, 2000).]
 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Yes, it is good to see that educated people have their own opinions too, mine differ.

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
"The thing is, I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring."

My beliefs on this are... ambiguous, at best. On one hand, you have the fact that the mother had nothing to do with the creation of the child, and thus is effectively being held hostage. On the other, you have the fact that the child is innocent, and has done nothing to warrant death. The same argument as before applies: the child has a right to live, and the mother's right to her body can not override that. It'd be so much simpler if we could transplant babies, or create artificial wombs, but we can't.

I can make no decision on the subject of rape and abortion.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :
 
Not neccessarily off topic but quite possibly germane to the topic in discussion...

A few years ago, there was a movie on either HBO or Showtime which involved a couple who had discovered after some kind of genetic test performed on the unborn child that the child would in fact, be born gay. The mother wanted to abort the child because she didn't want her child to have to deal with the discrimination and general overall bigotry which gay/lesbian/bi et. al people gotta deal with on a day to day basis. She also had a gay brother who thought the abortion idea was a tremendously STUPID thing to do. Her husband was also against the idea of the abortion but for totally different reasons. I don't recall if she did go through with it but the question begs to be asked - do we start aborting babies on the basis of genetics? On pre-dispoced possiblities that they MIGHT be something that we hadn't counted on? Like being gay? Or on the other side of the spectrum, the next Adolf Hitler?

Bottom line is, there is no REAL easy answer to the whole abortion debate. No black or whites here but a TON of grays. And how would you go about legislating those grays, even if you could?

Quatre.

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"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy


 

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
I think all life is precious-No matter what genetics say. That life whether gay, handicapped, etc, like any other, has every right to live. Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb. Hilter himself was not inherently evil either. He was entirely ambitious, however, and would have gone either way if it would have given him power.

Omega brings up an interesting point: If a child is brought about from rape-Yes the child would have been from a monster, but is the child innocent and thus [u]not[/u] deserving of death?

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
 

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
"...I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring."

That is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard anyone say. If I decide I don't like one of your parents, can I kill you and say I don't view you as a human?

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"I suppose it's possible my mother is a product of my imagination, but that raises more questions than it solves, really."
-Simon Sizer, 4-Dec-2000
 

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
"Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb."

Quickly, get your findings into Nature for peer review. The rest of the scientific community will be very greatful that such a difficult question has been answered so definitively.

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"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
What's say we figure out how to simulate a pregnancy and delivery of a child, then make the rapist go through it at the same time as the mother, but twice as bad? Not adequete punishment, but I'd like the irony.

"Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb."

What, now? Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic thing, or a development thing. You may be born with certain, for lack of a better term, "risk factors," but your genetic predispositions can be overcome. I'm genetically predisposed not to like brussel sprouts. It's a general human thing. However, give me them every day, and if I make a conserted psychological effort, I can make myself like them. You have a base personality, but it can be overridden.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Omega: You also seem to have a predisposition to be an annoying little twat, but I don't see you overriding that...

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"I suppose it's possible my mother is a product of my imagination, but that raises more questions than it solves, really."
-Simon Sizer, 4-Dec-2000
 

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
Oops, pressed submit before I finished :P


Omega, you are totally wrong on that. Homosexuality is not a choice. People are born that way...

Why would anyone choose to live a lifestyle where one is constantly persecuted?

In the 60's and 70's, scientists ran some tests on rats, where they overpopulated them. They noted homicide, suicide, AND homosexuality. This is evidence that homosexuality might be determined by the environment in which the child is living in while it is growing in the womb. Either way, homosexuality is something people are born with, not a [u]choice[/u].

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Gee, TSN, twat might be to 'forward' for him, to be honest.

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Tim:

That's not to say I couldn't. It's just that I couldn't care less whether I annoy you or not.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Omega: Okay, if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, explain the phenomenon of homosexuals hating homosexuality.

As for abortion, I've recently changed from pro-life to neutral. It has to do with reincarnation, mostly, and not about women's rights or definition of life. Basically, I myself wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm not going to judge anyone else for doing it.

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"Solipsism, like other absurdities of the professional philosopher, is a product of too much time wasted in library stacks between the covers of a book, in smoke-filled coffeehouses (bad for the brains) and conversation-clogged seminars. To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he's a liar."
--Edward Abbey

[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited December 11, 2000).]
 

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :
 
Lifestyle choice?

Now i'm pissed, Omega.

Let me tell you something...the ONLY choice that I made about being gay was to ~NOT~ pretend that I wasn't and to accept it.

But narrowminded fundie pricks like you like to believe everything is a choice, now don't you? Did my boyfriend Jason make a choice to be persecuted and ABUSED by his fundie parents to the point where he KILLED himself? Was that a CHOICE, asshole?

Was it a choice Matt Sheppard was beaten almost to death, robbed and stripped of his clothing and left to freeze to death, tied up to a fence post in -0 degree weather in Wyoming?

Was it a CHOICE that I was kicked out of my parent's house when they found out about me?

Was it a choice that fundie pricks like you have their gay/lesbian kids INSTUTIONALIZED and tortured with ECT therapy and then drugged out of their minds because they can't deal with a gay/lesbian kid?

Is it a choice that 2 out of every 4 teen suicides is a gay/lesbian kid committing suicide?

And you tell ME that all this is a fucking choice?!!

The only choice I ever made was to LIVE and to FIGHT Christian-fascists like you. And how DARE you call yourself a Christian. Christ was about love and acceptance and peace. Not about this twisted perversion you laughingly call Christianity.

Not on MY watch. Not now and not ever.

*furious as hell!*

Quatre Raberba Winner-Barton

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"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy



 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Yeah, I can just imagine that you'd choose to go through all that abuse and destroying your family(as they see it)................

Why, I think I'll be gay from now on.....

(QW I'n not jabbing at you, trying to add to your point though....)

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
They pay Christ lip service--Jesus this, Jesus that. Oh, like, we need guns to shoot goddamn criminals even though Jesus says to give 'em the other cheek, but it's okay, cuz we'll just beg forgiveness at the pearly gates. Like that's not a lifestyle choice that can be overcome. Certain immature beings need rules they can hold on to, I suppose they've all congregated into fundamentalism.

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"Solipsism, like other absurdities of the professional philosopher, is a product of too much time wasted in library stacks between the covers of a book, in smoke-filled coffeehouses (bad for the brains) and conversation-clogged seminars. To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he's a liar."
--Edward Abbey
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
JeffR,

On a side note, re: your comment I think all life is precious-No matter what genetics say. That life whether gay, handicapped, etc, like any other, has every right to live

Would this include convicted murderers?

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Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
You're attempting to force me into a contradiction, but it won't work.

The unborn child is innocent of anything. It knows not what it does. The rapist and murderer, on the other hand, do. Their life is indeed precious, but when they take the life of another, they forfeit their life.


Jordan-I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but you must understand-This flameboard is for flaming issues, not people. Please be wise to use understanding with other people's beliefs.

And this thread is about abortion, people-Not the issue of homosexuality. If you want to discuss THAT can of worms, start a new thread. Thank you.

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 12, 2000).]
 

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :
 
I know Jeff. I'm sorry. My temper tends to snowball into literally something almost unstoppable when i'm very angry.

Quatre.

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"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy



 

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Y'know, it's funny. One shouldn't judge by just what you see here, but I'd guess it's not an unfair assumption that a) most of you are in college, and b) none of you are exactly doing the wild thing on a regular basis.

Now, you just try being at university and getting your girlfriend pregnant. You try facing whatever hopes and dreams you may have career-wise (or indeed otherwise), for both of you, called into question if not totally compromised. I knew there was no choice, and was all for a termination. She agreed - and also made it clear that if my opinion had been otherwise, it wouldn't have affected her decision one iota. Having a baby was completely out of the question.

So. Been there, done that. And fuck anyone who tries to tell me it was wrong.

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"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh


 

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
So you believe that your hopes, dreams, and aspirations are more important than the LIFE of your own child? A child who you created through your own irresponsibility? I'd say that if you'd ended up destroying what you'd wanted through your own mistakes, you deserve it.

Actions have consequences. You have sex, girl get's pregnant, you have kid. Can you honestly say that it's worth ending an innocent human life, just to avoid the consequences of your own actions?

Now, back to the actual subject.

My reasoning:

1) The end of an innocent human life is wrong, except to serve some greater necessity.
2) Abortion is the end of an innocent human life.
Conclusion) Abortion is wrong, unless it somehow serves an equal or greater necessity.

Assumptions:

1) An unborn child is innocent.

I doubt anyone will argue with this.

2) An unborn child is alive.

Death is defined as the absence of a detectable brainwave. Therefore, life would be defined as the presence of same. As a brainwave is detectable in an unborn child at six weeks, it would follow that an unborn child is alive.

3) An unborn child is human.

Someone care to supply the scientific definition of Homo sapiens? Without that, this argument can not be made either way. Of course, no one need supply the definition if no one disagrees.

Anyone find a hole in my reasoning?

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
By your own admission Omega, brain activity doesn't show up till week 6, give or take as little in life is on a set schedule. So, removing the growth by then does not mean you are killing anything that is alive.

So, if a woman has an abortion before brain waves start, then it is not wrong.

Unless you are not going to stand by your words, death is the adsence of brain activity, then life must have brain activity. If there is no brain, then there is no life.

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Clinically, yes, for medicine and law to remain consistant, it would nesecarily follow that children, before six weeks, are not, in fact, alive. Barring redefinition, that is, which has happened in the past. It used to be that a pulse and respiration were considered the signs of life. It is always possible that life will be redefinied further in the future.

The argument could also be made that something is alive because it has the potential to be so, if not interfered with. However, I don't think I'll get into that.

This is, of course, a clinical and legal standpoint. My moral beliefs are something different altogether.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Omega,

I have thanfully never been in the position Vorgon has been. Neither have you. You're religious, right?

Judge not

Learn it.

Also, by your above definition, if the abortion happened in that first six weeks, how do you decry it? By your own definition, let me stress that, your own, there is no life.


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[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 12, 2000).]
 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Damn, might have to start drinking after this post....

JeffK, he did add the disclaimer that his moral stand point was different than the scientific view.

Damn, I can't believe I just did that......

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Did he? I missed that part.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
It's amazing what happens when you pay attention, instead of assuming that you know what you're talking about.

And "judge not" applies to people, not actions. Otherwise, there'd be no absolute morality.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
"Otherwise, there'd be no absolute morality."

Why should we think such a thing exists in the first place?

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"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.



 

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Because what right have we to punish people who do wrong, if there is no wrong to begin with? What's the point of having morals at all, if they only apply selectively? If there is no right and wrong, then what's the point of government and law?

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Shades of Gray, Omega.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I'm almost at a loss for words. Have you honestly never bothered to research ethical systems different from your own? Not even one?

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"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.



 

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
"Because what right have we to punish people who do wrong, if there is no wrong to begin with? What's the point of having morals at all, if they only apply selectively? If there is no right and wrong, then what's the point of government and law?"

This is why we have different countries (and different states). You do your thing, and we'll do ours, and we won't bother each other about it. Etc.

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"I remember my mum telling me 'don't wear that jacket, it doesn't go with your top.' And I said 'Screw you mum, I'll wear what I'll like'. And then I went and changed tops." - Liam Ka--thingy
 

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Amazing. I've just been simultaneously lambasted for my own "irresponsibility" while having sex, and for having sex at all. Well, on the first charge, I can hardly be held to blame for the failure of a moulded piece of latex - unless Omeychops believe it was somehow divinely ordained and should be accepted as Fate? And as for having sex at all, unless for deliberate procreation, well I'm guilty. On the other hand, having observed Smega's rather nauseating attempst to cozy up to LOA, I'd say the chances of him ever being in a similar situation, whether deliberate or not, are slim to none.

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"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh


 

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Sol, was that ment for Omega?

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Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.


 

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
I've decided to kill you all. I'm allowed to, because my belief system says that's completely ok, and actually demands me to kill everyone I come into contact with. You can't hold me accountable because you must respect my belief system even if it is different from yours.


Bullshit. There are absolute rights and wrongs. Would anyone disagree that these absolutes are manifested by most of the Ten Commandments? Thou Shalt not Murder, Thou Shalt not Covet thy Neighbor's wife, etc?

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Now, see, thats why you shouldn't have a gun. It makes it way to easy for you to kill us all.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
No, that's why you SHOULD, so you can stop the extremely rare lunitics from killing you.

Honestly, you seem to think that if you put a gun into the hands of a normal citizen, they become a homicidal maniac, but if you take the gun away, they become normal again...

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
"This is why we have different countries (and different states). You do your thing, and we'll do ours, and we won't bother each other about it. Etc."

So you're saying anything the 'people' in a country (never mind that the 'people' rarely make these kinds of decisions anyway) decide to do to themselves inside the boundaries of their own country, is okay, and we shouldn't get involved?

Need I say that this isn't a workable solution?
Need I say how many million MORE people would have died if we'd all followed that advice in 1930-s Germany, 1990's Rwanda, Yugoslavia, etc etc?

Oh, wait, we DID follow that example in Rwanda.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
"I've decided to kill you all. I'm allowed to, because my belief system says that's completely ok, and actually demands me to kill everyone I come into contact with."

You can do this with other people who share your belief system, but if you try it with those who don't, expect trouble.

"So you're saying anything the 'people' in a country (never mind that the 'people' rarely make these kinds of decisions anyway)

Admittedly, this depends on the assumption that the people can choose their form of government, and leave at any time they wish.

"decide to do to themselves inside the boundaries of their own country, is okay, and we shouldn't get involved?"

Yes. I mean, if they ask for help or whatever, that's a different story, but I think it's arrogant to think that you can go around being the ultimate moral arbiter...

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"I remember my mum telling me 'don't wear that jacket, it doesn't go with your top.' And I said 'Screw you mum, I'll wear what I'll like'. And then I went and changed tops." - Liam Ka--thingy
 

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
'That they can leave whenever they wish' is, one must admit, a flimsy assumption, and certainly not true in most countries that we'd have to worry about, where dictatorship is the norm. It wasn't true in Cold-War Eastern Europe...

And who decides what 'asking for help' is? How many people does it take to ask to intervene? 1?, 100?, 1000?, all of them?

And what if the people who don't want you intervening control the major sources of information out of that country?

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
Well, there you go...if the government is working against the will of the people (and you're absolutely sure of it), I suppose intervention would be justified.

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"I remember my mum telling me 'don't wear that jacket, it doesn't go with your top.' And I said 'Screw you mum, I'll wear what I'll like'. And then I went and changed tops." - Liam Ka--thingy
 

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
How about if the government of that country, acting WITH the will of the people, (or at least, with their silence, implying consent), invades another country and subjugates ITS people?

China-Tibet
Iraq-Kuwait
USSR-Afghanistan
N. Korea-S. Korea

What if a government, with a majority of its people's consent, abuses a minority of its people?

Pre Civil-War US, perhaps even pre-civil rights act Southern US
Germany c,1939
Pinochet Chile
China again

Tell you what, if the hypothetical "White Christian" USA ever comes to pass, PLEASE invade!

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
JeffR: Hey... What's wrong w/ coveting? *L*

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-Simon Sizer, regarding superbad.com, 12-Dec-2000
 

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
No moral law is absolute. Thou shall not kill. Except in self defense. Or in times of war. Honor thy father and mother. Except if your parents happen to be genocidal warlords, and expect you to do the right thing by joining the family business. Even the Golden Rule breaks down when what you want and what others want are two seperate things. In the end, all morality is personal. This is a Good Thing. Our moral laws may be digital, but we live in an analog world.

------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.



 

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
That's true enough.
But does that mean we shouldn't TRY?

Now for me, the closest I've been able to come to a moral absolute is:

You shouldn't cause unnecessary harm or suffering to other people.

That's still not quite pinned down, because of a need for the definition of "unnecessary harm."

For instance, necessary harm is like that occuring during surgery.
Or discipline.
Or self-preservation.

Still working on that.
But when I finish, can I be Boss?

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
I did not say thou shall not kill. I said thou shall not murder. Murder is killing with malicious intent.

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999

 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
So ... if my little daughter gets raped by two big rednecks, I shouldn't take my M-16 and gun them down in a court room?

Omega, the point is, if someone is ALREADY a homicidal raving lunatic, wouldn't you like to know that BEFORE you sell them a gun?

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
If someone's a homicidal raving lunitic, then they'll have already done time in prison, and thus couldn't be sold a gun under existing laws. That is, if the obstruction-of-justice department would enforce them.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Aaah, yes, they couldn't be sold a gun from an Official source.

I do believe it's quite easy for them to find on from an unofficial source, like, say RedNeck Bill's trunk. The laws designed for this do nothing.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
If someone's a homicidal raving lunatic, then they'll have already done time in prison, and thus couldn't be sold a gun under existing laws. That is, if the obstruction-of-justice department would enforce them.

Ah, look at Omega. Isn't his circular logic amazing? Now, you'll notice, ladies and gentlemen, that he apparently skips over the rather obvious conclusion that he may not yet have demonstrated himself - in a way to be noticed by law enforcement agents - to be a homicidal raving lunatic. Apparently, the "Omega" specimen assumes that the "homicidal raving lunatic" is born with a prison term tucked under his arm, so to speak.

Seriously, Omega. What if a man has a mental disorder, which could possibly be picked up by a psychologist? But which has not manifested itself clearly enough to make him noticeable to the police? You really want this kind of guy walking in to a gun store and buying the new model Smith & Wessan?

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
UM:

"I do believe it's quite easy for them to find on from an unofficial source, like, say RedNeck Bill's trunk. The laws designed for this do nothing."

Then they wouldn't work for determining whether someone's a psychopath before selling them a gun, either, would they?

JK:

"What if a man has a mental disorder, which could possibly be picked up by a psychologist? But which has not manifested itself clearly enough to make him noticeable to the police?"

Oh, please, describe this magical mental disorder that so PERFECTLY fits your requirements. I'd love to know the name of anything that acts like that.

Do you know how few shootings are commited by people with NO criminal record whatsoever? You probably would, if you read the book I recomended. In fact, I'd bet Rob'd be willing to fill you in at no charge.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
What book did you recommend and when did you do so?

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Another good book is the 'History of Torture', I think by a guy named Manix (Or some variation). It's been 8 to 10 years since I read it.
Great book, especially for creating enchanting conversation at parties.

It covers the Inquisition and their devious tactics, great for the up coming fundie National Convention.

Since we were on book recommendations, and several people here seem to like torturing themselve here......

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Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
When I said 'the laws...they do nothing!', I was indeed referring to the fact that Deranged individuals can purchase weaponry quite a bit easier than I can purchase porn.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Everyone on the Flameboard is a masochist.

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On a series of events
I cannot explain
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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I recomended the book "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. Remember, where you weren't paying attention and thought I was talking about the senate majority leader Trent Lott? Well, I guess you REALLY weren't paying attention.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
 

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Ah, yes, that book.

Omega, I never thought your John Lott was the Senate majority leader.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Over here, buying the porn's a wee bit easier than buying the gun. And thanks to the wonders of the internet, you don't even need to leave the house to enjoys the wonders to lovely ladies trying to find change that they've dropped into each other. By using their toungues.

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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
 



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