posted
Since you liberals just love attacking Omega, I think I'll offer a better target.
Issue: Abortion
There is a case in New Mexico about a man who punched his 2 month pregnant wife in the stomach. This killed the child, and the man was placed in jail for the murder of the unborn child.
Does this constitute as rights for the unborn child? If the answer is yes, then when are these rights granted? I think we can all agree that it would be when it is considered life.
When it is considered life? This is clearly a medical and scientific question.
* Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."
* Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."
* Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."
There are countless journals and medical books that will agree that life does indeed begin at conception. Denying this fact is no longer of philosophy or religious views. Its a matter of stupidity.
If life begins at conception, it therefore is entitled to rights of a human being, ie the right to life.
The woman has the right to her body, but does she have the right to her child's life? Does the woman have more right to kill her growing child than the child's right to live? I doubt you can find proof of this.
I am sure that everyone would agree that every life is precious, then why not that of an unborn child? Why should we allow the killing of innocent children?
Solution: I believe that the best way to stop unwanted pregnancies is to stop the process by which they are created. Men and women should stop having sex outside of marriage. Sex is NOT a recreational function. It is a way of sharing yourself with someone you love completely. It is also the way in which we pro-create. Don't want to have a child? Don't have sex. It is as simple as that. We must teach our children this in order to stop what I consider manslaughter on innocent, helpless beings.
------------------ "I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
While I agree with most of your points, I believe there needs to be an exception, namely the women who were done over and left pregnant by sexual predators.
Abortion should be done in such a circumstance especially if the woman is straight as an arrow. Her rights to a normal life were violated (as well as the rights to her body) the moment that pervert forced himself on her. Forcing her to bear the child of that predator not only adds insult to injury, emotionally and physically, but it further violates her right to a normal life, given the fact that she was not responsible for her own pregnancy.
I am pro-life for the most part. If a sexual pervert did over my girlfriend and got her pregnant, she would no doubt opt for an abortion. And I would support her under such a circumstance, 100%, no strings attached.
That child of a predator only serves as a gruesome reminder to that woman of what that Predator did to her in the first place. And need I not remind you of what if the Predator wanted access to his child?
Can of Worms? In this circumstance, yes. The thing is, I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring.
------------------ "My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht." Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited December 11, 2000).]
posted
"The thing is, I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring."
My beliefs on this are... ambiguous, at best. On one hand, you have the fact that the mother had nothing to do with the creation of the child, and thus is effectively being held hostage. On the other, you have the fact that the child is innocent, and has done nothing to warrant death. The same argument as before applies: the child has a right to live, and the mother's right to her body can not override that. It'd be so much simpler if we could transplant babies, or create artificial wombs, but we can't.
I can make no decision on the subject of rape and abortion.
------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
posted
Not neccessarily off topic but quite possibly germane to the topic in discussion...
A few years ago, there was a movie on either HBO or Showtime which involved a couple who had discovered after some kind of genetic test performed on the unborn child that the child would in fact, be born gay. The mother wanted to abort the child because she didn't want her child to have to deal with the discrimination and general overall bigotry which gay/lesbian/bi et. al people gotta deal with on a day to day basis. She also had a gay brother who thought the abortion idea was a tremendously STUPID thing to do. Her husband was also against the idea of the abortion but for totally different reasons. I don't recall if she did go through with it but the question begs to be asked - do we start aborting babies on the basis of genetics? On pre-dispoced possiblities that they MIGHT be something that we hadn't counted on? Like being gay? Or on the other side of the spectrum, the next Adolf Hitler?
Bottom line is, there is no REAL easy answer to the whole abortion debate. No black or whites here but a TON of grays. And how would you go about legislating those grays, even if you could?
posted
I think all life is precious-No matter what genetics say. That life whether gay, handicapped, etc, like any other, has every right to live. Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb. Hilter himself was not inherently evil either. He was entirely ambitious, however, and would have gone either way if it would have given him power.
Omega brings up an interesting point: If a child is brought about from rape-Yes the child would have been from a monster, but is the child innocent and thus [u]not[/u] deserving of death?
------------------ "I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
"...I cannot see such an unborn child as a human being, only as a Monster's Offspring."
That is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard anyone say. If I decide I don't like one of your parents, can I kill you and say I don't view you as a human?
------------------ "I suppose it's possible my mother is a product of my imagination, but that raises more questions than it solves, really." -Simon Sizer, 4-Dec-2000
posted
"Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb."
Quickly, get your findings into Nature for peer review. The rest of the scientific community will be very greatful that such a difficult question has been answered so definitively.
posted
What's say we figure out how to simulate a pregnancy and delivery of a child, then make the rapist go through it at the same time as the mother, but twice as bad? Not adequete punishment, but I'd like the irony.
"Also, homosexuality is not genetic, but is decided while the child is growing within the womb."
What, now? Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic thing, or a development thing. You may be born with certain, for lack of a better term, "risk factors," but your genetic predispositions can be overcome. I'm genetically predisposed not to like brussel sprouts. It's a general human thing. However, give me them every day, and if I make a conserted psychological effort, I can make myself like them. You have a base personality, but it can be overridden.
------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
posted
Omega: You also seem to have a predisposition to be an annoying little twat, but I don't see you overriding that...
------------------ "I suppose it's possible my mother is a product of my imagination, but that raises more questions than it solves, really." -Simon Sizer, 4-Dec-2000
Omega, you are totally wrong on that. Homosexuality is not a choice. People are born that way...
Why would anyone choose to live a lifestyle where one is constantly persecuted?
In the 60's and 70's, scientists ran some tests on rats, where they overpopulated them. They noted homicide, suicide, AND homosexuality. This is evidence that homosexuality might be determined by the environment in which the child is living in while it is growing in the womb. Either way, homosexuality is something people are born with, not a [u]choice[/u].
------------------ "I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited December 11, 2000).]
posted
Omega: Okay, if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, explain the phenomenon of homosexuals hating homosexuality.
As for abortion, I've recently changed from pro-life to neutral. It has to do with reincarnation, mostly, and not about women's rights or definition of life. Basically, I myself wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm not going to judge anyone else for doing it.
------------------ "Solipsism, like other absurdities of the professional philosopher, is a product of too much time wasted in library stacks between the covers of a book, in smoke-filled coffeehouses (bad for the brains) and conversation-clogged seminars. To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he's a liar." --Edward Abbey
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited December 11, 2000).]
Let me tell you something...the ONLY choice that I made about being gay was to ~NOT~ pretend that I wasn't and to accept it.
But narrowminded fundie pricks like you like to believe everything is a choice, now don't you? Did my boyfriend Jason make a choice to be persecuted and ABUSED by his fundie parents to the point where he KILLED himself? Was that a CHOICE, asshole?
Was it a choice Matt Sheppard was beaten almost to death, robbed and stripped of his clothing and left to freeze to death, tied up to a fence post in -0 degree weather in Wyoming?
Was it a CHOICE that I was kicked out of my parent's house when they found out about me?
Was it a choice that fundie pricks like you have their gay/lesbian kids INSTUTIONALIZED and tortured with ECT therapy and then drugged out of their minds because they can't deal with a gay/lesbian kid?
Is it a choice that 2 out of every 4 teen suicides is a gay/lesbian kid committing suicide?
And you tell ME that all this is a fucking choice?!!
The only choice I ever made was to LIVE and to FIGHT Christian-fascists like you. And how DARE you call yourself a Christian. Christ was about love and acceptance and peace. Not about this twisted perversion you laughingly call Christianity.
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