Most people who are on death row are there because of tortuous, grotesque, and horrific crimes like murder and rape. But when I think about it, aren't the prison officials committing the same crime when they 'pull the switch', or 'give the injection', or drop those crystal things in chemicals (death by gas). Why aren't they punished? Wasn't the US Constitution centered around the Ten Commandments? If I recall correctly, one of the Ten Commandments says 'Thou shalt not kill'. Sometimes I believe we aren't any better than the criminal when we condone the death sentence.

Yeah, I know we can't support criminals with life sentences. It's too expensive. But can't they work? What's really funny is that I'm loosing my job to another plant that has to turn to prison facilities for employees. The can work to support themselves. They could be farming to feed themselves. There's all kinds of things they could do (besides taking jobs from people with educations and families to support). Give them minimum wage jobs. Yeah, we might have to pay extra for more prison guards, but if you think about it...the money saved from them supporting themselves will pay for the guards.

And for all of those without life sentences - give them all psychological evaluations and treatments that continue throughout their terms and even for a period of time afterwards. All of the Parole/Probation Officers should be required to have psychology degrees/training to support that. That's one type of reform. There's also nothing wrong with the prisoners getting an education while they are in prison either. Make it mandatory! Work of the day, educate of the night. When the reformed criminal is released they stand a much better chance of leading a good life afterwards. They need to be made to use their minds and bodies for positive things instead of just sitting there.

Then for those who's crimes were worthy of death sentences (and/or the uncontrollable inmates) - ship them off to an island where there is no chance of escape. Hell, build an island. Let them live like the animals they behave like. They can worry about how to survive and if they are going to be killed - sort of 'touch�'.

That documentary I watched was mostly about prison conditions. They made some good points, but I'm not sure if the pro's would outweigh the con's (no pun intended). The inmates claim that the bad conditions cause a deep seated anger that builds and when they are released their anger will be released too. That may be true, but I'm not too fond of giving them better living conditions than the people on welfare. Hell, if that happened people would be committing crimes to get into prison. I can hear it now..."Hey, I won't have to worry about where my next meal is coming from" - "I'll be warm through the winter" - "We have televisions and physical fitness centers" - "I can live better in prison than I can being free".

I'm not saying that the prisoners aren't violated in the facilities...that's a whole horse of another color. Those issues can be dealt with and usually are.

At any rate, if anyone asked me if I supported the death sentence (before the documentary) I would have still said 'I'm not sure how I feel about it'. After the documentary...'I'm leaning more towards no'.

------------------

 

Why let them have the chance to commit them again?

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

They wouldn't have a chance.
 

Your proposal isn't much less absurd.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

How can a person accept God's Word saying 'Thou shalt not kill.' when he had the Israelites slaughter the Palastinians?

Taking the meaning of murder then you can have the eye for and eye, and kill the murders. This makes capital punishment work.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

 

Man: "Hi, God, what does this Commandment mean?"

God: "It means you shouldn't kill people."

Man: "Oh, but doesn't this word mean murder? And wait, you told me to go kill those Palestinians!"

God: "Well, since I told you to kill the Palestinians, it's okay, because I'm God and I say so! If you do it for any other reason then my direct order, it's murder."

Man: "Uh ... ok."

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

It's much more expensive to execute someone than it is to keep them in a cage since that damned due process clause started being used.

The death penalty as instituted today in the United States is little more than public revenge.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

"Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death."
-Exodus 21:12

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8164 7644 8724 6991+360 8164 8724 6541 8164 7239
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
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***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

I believe no human being should have the right to harm or kill another human being. The fact that they do, every day, in a huge variety of inventive and unpleasant ways, just shows how far we have to go as a species. But once you start killing off anyone who doesn't conform exactly to your standards, there's no end to it.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
 

Is bringing cocaine into a country worse than killing someone?

And I think it's insane to compare the officials who authorize the use of lethal means to the murderers themselves. It's their job. They're not the ones who are going "Hmm, okay, let's kill this dude". They're not making the decision.

They have as much say in it as a police officer does when giving you a speeding ticket. He (for the most part) is giving you a ticket because you broke the law. You're not going to contest it to him, you'll go to court. They're both a matter of the law, and not of the instruments that implement them.

And as for the whole "God say murder = bad" argument,

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed."

Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

Numbers 35:31 "Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death."

Numbers 35:33 "So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it."

Not that this means anything. The bible is so very contradictory that there are an equal number of incidents in which killing is said to be bad, and that YHWH doesn't like it much.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

The whole death sentence thing is barbaric.

I can honestly sit here and say that if a family member of mine were murdered, I still wouldn't be able to 'pull the switch'. I would be one very angry person - yes...but to witness this person's death and know that I participated the agony the murderer is going to feel is something I don't think I could live with. Is it really fair to make another family feel what my family feels in the loss? Maybe I'm being too compassionate.

Imagine an inmate being drug, kicking and screaming, to the death chamber - he's begging for mercy - his family is begging for his mercy...Could you 'pull the switch'? And be comfortable with the fact that you did do it?

Isn't death the easy way out too? Why not make them live with the knowledge of what they have done? And, of course, this brings me back to one of my previous arguments..."Why give them the luxuries that our own poverty stricken people don't have?" And again...I don't think a barren, desolate, island is out of the question. Nobody said it has to be the size of Gilligans Island - or as nice.

As for the opinion you expressed earlier, Ultra, murderer's have killed people and destroyed families. In general, homosexuals don't. That is a decision they make that influences their own lives - they aren't taking someone else's life. There is a major difference IMO.

[This message has been edited by MsChris (edited December 30, 2000).]
 

Capital Punishment as a crime deterrent sucks from what the statistics and survies say. And if according to how most murders occur, "crimes of passion" then they aren't going to think about that before grabbing that gun or knife.

That being said, throwing someone in prison for life won't do shit either. How bad is crime in the world? It doesn't matter if you kill them by the 1000's or jail them for life, there will still be alot more crime than either side assumes.
Ask nearly any criminal in or out of prison, and they'll say they think/thought they would never get caught. They are/were too smart or would escape the cops.

Some criminals need to be executed. Those who can't be reformed, can't stay in prison without being a danger to inmates and guards, and are just too dangerous to be allowed to live. The rest can be housed in jail, but not given the easy life like this.

------------------
Three important questions to ask an alien before having sex:
(1) Are you carrying any diseases which might be communicable to humans?
(2) Have you had sex with any high-risk partners in the past six months?
(3) Which one is your mouth?

I doubt the criminal in question gave any credence to the mercy of his victims. Why give him the same courtesy, when it's obvious he was able to 'pull the switch' with little effort.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

Those that don't show any remorse, how can locking them up for life work? They don't care.

Then you get kids killing each other, like here in Saint Clair county, where the other kids staged a small riot supporting the confessed killers. What the f*ck is this crap? I'd say sending a few thousand volts in to those 3 young adults will send a message to those 40 juvenile supporters.

"Damn, Johnny killed Jimmy, and then they electrocuted Johnny." pauses in thought, "Maybe I shouldn't kill Joey....."

People like Ms. Smith, that killed her kids, in their car seats, by driving her car in to that lake. Keep her alive, let that bitch suffer, let the prisoners that want to see their kids beat her daily, this would be a good thing.
Timmy McVeigh, let him get shanked in prison, helping to kill all those kids.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

 

Straight through the Tigers digestive system!

BWAHAHAHAHA. Look Out!

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

As for you, Ritten, and the obvious relish with which you regard the gory details of methods of capital punishment, I wouldn't bemoan your inability to obtain a criminal law degree too highly. I suspect the position to which you aspire also requires a certain degree of psychological screening which you would find equally impassable.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
 

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

 

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

But Ultra, you aren't just punishing the criminal - but his family too. You have created even more victims. What did his family do to deserve what you are putting them through? How would you feel about your child/sibling/parent being executed?

And here's another straw to grasp for....How many 'criminals' have been wrongfully executed? Yeah, I know it seldom happens, but the fact is that it does and has happened (and will continue to happen). Do the victims of those families get to have their revenge on the system? Not likely.

"Then you get kids killing each other, like here in Saint Clair county, where the other kids staged a small riot supporting the confessed killers. What the f*ck is this crap? I'd say sending a few thousand volts in to those 3 young adults will send a message to those 40 juvenile supporters." - Ritten

Yup...It would send a message, but not just to those juveniles. I can see a major protest happening. What about the freedom to speak? Hell, if you are willing to go to that degree - Why not resurrect Hitler?

 

I don't know how I'd feel if my son turned out to be a mass murderer, but I'd imagine I'd just as soon see him fry. Hell, I've disowned family for being thieves, let alone murderers.

"My Timmy is a good boy, he was just having a bad day when he killed those people in Oklahoma City." cried Mrs. Mac.

Yep.

If we turn our cheek 168 times we will end up looking right back where we started.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

 

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited December 31, 2000).]
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

oh, and MsC: seldom? Try regularly.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
 

Members of the armed forces are usually trained to enter combat. All of my friends in the armed services have been in combat situations, either in Kosovo or Bosnia (well, ok, my one friend ain't seen combat, but he's a cadet at the Air Force Academy).

I think it's safe to say that the majority of the people in the US's military have been in areas & missions where they have known their lives to be in danger, and have lived with the knowledge that they might have to take lives.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

(glances up briefly..) "sigh.."

*continues to bang head on table..*
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

They're the ones that are going to kill people in combat, while we watch and judge on CNN. If they're more hard-assed about it, I think that's a good idea. Their job is to prepare to kill.

Three of my best friends are first-year JTF-2 grunts, and while they're not exactly the poster boys for proper and healthy mental adjustment, they're the guys I want shooting other bad guys to protect me.

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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
 

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

 

------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

When you enter a war-type situation (or the military since 'war' is a very real possibility), you know that there is a chance of not returning - of being killed.

When you are a standard citizen, getting killed is not something you anticipate.

Yup! Definately a difference.

TLE: Babylon 5? LOL - I never thought about the similarities, but you are correct. Seems to have shown some of the possibilities.
 

I think every civilian with a CCWP expects death. Police -- Federal (FBI, ATF, USSS) and local -- are civilians too (although many are ex-military)

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
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***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

[This message has been edited by MsChris (edited January 01, 2001).]
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Death = Death.

Rape, beating and death = rape, beating, and death.

Blowing up into little pieces = blowing up into little pieces.

If you kill more than one person, we just double the time it takes you to die -- to matched the increased suffering created by your actions.

As for the criminal's family... so? This is yet again another instance of 'should have thought of that before you did it.'

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

1. We legalize certain drugs, and okay them for private, personal use. We make the drugs available in state-run stores, like liquor, and tax the hell out of them, as far as the market will bear. Because I don't care if you destroy yourself.

2. However, we make it a fragging offense to harm anybody else while under the influence of any of these same drugs, or to operate a motor vehicle in a similar condition. No mercy and no quarter to be given. You drug, you drive, you DIE.

I think that's fair.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Anyone who pops an asprin before they get into a car, off with their friggin head! Anyone who lights up a Marlboro, them too!

People who run red lights, follow too closely, cut others off, and make illegal u-turns should also be put to death. Also, those who jay-walk, toss their cigarette butts into the storm drains, or hitch-hike should also be executed.

For that matter, anyone who needs to wear eye-glasses to see properly while driving should also be put to death. Anyone who can't drive a stick shift should be put to death. Anyone who drives a Geo should also be put to death for lack of taste.

Death is never the answer to anything.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 09, 2001).]
 

But, There's A Big Fucking Difference between First's example and your off-the-rocker ramblings.

If you harm someone while under the influence of drugs, is, say quite different to needing glasses to see.

As much as disagree with Omega, I'm not completely taken aback when he calls you irrational.

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"The ingestion of this product, which contains a high level of acidity, may result in unwanted, and unexpected head corrosion. Be warned.
 

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
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***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
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***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

The law can spell that out, but for the record, the two 'lesser' drugs it should include would be pot and alcohol.

But yeah, if a person downs a whole bottle of cough syrup from a bottle that says 'do not opearate machinery while using' and goes careening down the highway, we'd be better off without them, anyway.

And smokers should be liable for the dangers of their secondhand smoke, just as schools are liable for installing that flaky kind of asbestos.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

"I've killed two thousand drunk drivers!"

"I built a public transportation system and drunk driving dropped seventy percent in the last three months!"

First of all, your plan isn't realistic. There aren't enough Police in ANY area to pull over EVERY single impaired driver, so you'd have to hire a shit more cops, which would require raising taxes to pay for it (so that wouldn't work, because we can't raise those precious taxes, can we?)

Second, would you be doing away with due process with this? You get pulled over, are found to be under the influence, and get a .45 slug in the head right there and then? Do you honestly think this sort of plan would go over very well if someone tried to pass it through Congress?

(Even if it was a dictatorships, perhaps you've heard something of the Magna Carta? Yes, a bit out of date, but it's got a concept called "consent to rule." Namely, no matter how many troops you've got, or if you've got divine rule, if the people really want you OUT, they will get you out -- usually by violence. Point is, no matter how many soldiers you may have, there is usually a larger ratio of oppressed -> armed soldiers, and that's not taking into account soldiers who might side with the oppressed (look at the fall of the USSR as a good example). So even in a dictatorship I don't think this plan would go over well.)

Third ... what about honest mistakes? An old man pops his pills, gets behind the car, and has never read the "Don't Operate Motor Vehicle" warning on the pill label, etcetra. Would people accused of these crimes get a trial?

Just wondering.

You may not be aware of this, but in your perfect world, your lovely president of the US of A Mr. George Dubya would be dead as a doornail and six feet under right now. Oh, right, rich white people are exempt. My fault.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
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***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 10, 2001).]
 

Well, we could always look at 1934 Germany. Hitler had an approval rating higher than God, and appealed to the right people. I'm all for facism. If it works, then good. Where can I sign up for the SS?

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"...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking
about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing." - Harlan Ellison.

------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

There aren't enough police out now to stop EVERY other crime on the books now, or even every drunk driver under the laws existing now, ARE there? But we still have them. This challenge is irrelevant, since by applying the exact same logic to the CURRENT situation, you would come to the conclusion that we should give up enforcing the law entirely.

>"Second, would you be doing away with due process with this? You get pulled over, are found to be under the influence, and get a .45 slug in the head right there and then?"

Did I say this? No? then you can pretty much safely assume that that wasn't what I was suggesting. I know as well as anybody that an accusation does not necessarily make one guilty.

>"Third..." Yes.

>"[Blathering about Bush]"
Yes, but so would Darling Clinton, (because in First's Dictatorship, we shoot serial sex offenders, too (look up Juanita Broderick and ask her about darling Billy) - after their trial, which they have, no matter their approval rating) so we wouldn't be in this fix anyway.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 11, 2001).]
 

I never implied anything. I just wanted to know if it would be done right then on the spot under your law. You can be awfully touchy sometimes. I was simply asking for clarification. I mean, you're talking about "your dictatorship" all the time, how am I supposed to know a dictatorship is going to believe in the American system of justice? Really now.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

 

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Why are our lawmakers such pussies?

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"...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing."
- Harlan Ellison, on the Media Consumer of today.

------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

------------------
"...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing."
- Harlan Ellison, on the Media Consumer of today.