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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Feb. 23, 2001

SPOKANE, Washington (AP) -- A leader of a neo-Nazi group has sued an Idaho motel that denied a meeting room to members of his group and the Aryan nations, alleging civil rights violations.

The Silver Lake Motel in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, canceled a reservation November 30 after learning the white-supremacist groups planned to hold church services in a meeting room. Coeur d'Alene is about 30 miles east of Spokane.

R. Vincent Bertollini, a leader of the Idaho-based 11th Hour Remnant Messenger, is seeking more than $10,000 in actual damages and $2.2 million in punitive damages.

"Bertonllini was denied access to the conference room based upon his religion, beliefs and philosophies," the lawsuit said.

Motel officials did not immeditately return a telephone call seeking comment Thursday.

They have said they canceled the reservation and returned the deposit when they learned of the purpose of the gatherings.

The lawsuit was filed in the same court where a jury last summer ruled against Aryan Nations founded Richard Butler in a lawsuit filed by two people who were attacked by the group's security guards. It cost Butler the 20-acre compound where his Church of Jesus Christ Christian had held services for some three decades.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"Church of Jesus Christ Christian", eh? As opposed to the "Church of Jesus Christ Jewish", or the "Church of Jesus Christ Islam"? Or the "Church of Buddha Christian"?

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"I am slightly disturbed that a news station in the US would use the phrase 'to the max'. What's next? CNN saying 'Totally righteous murders?' BBC News 'Dude, like people were wasted yesterday'. The Times reporting 'Iraq bombed! For Great Justice!'?"
-Liam Kavanagh, 22.Feb.2001

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited February 23, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

I would give my life to hear a Nazi man say "but what of our civil rights."

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :

Pleh.... I live in Spokane.... there's problems like this around here all the time. It's just not good.... *shakes head*

~LOA

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"Apprently, "pooty" involves deities and pretty girls in compromising positions..." ~TSN Jan. 18th, 2001

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

I think someone should improve upon the constitution in such a way that:

"Freedom of speech should be enforce at all cost, except when it intrude into other's constitutional rights"

And I think the existence of Aryan Nations intrude on the rights of other minorities.

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Er...their existance? No. As disgusting and vile as they might be, no.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I think the Aryan Nations are a bunch of stupid, racist thugs, who I'd like to see dragged out into the street and lynched.

But, I'd also like to have someone give me $10 million dollars, and that ain't likely to happen any time soon either.

Everyone and everygroup in this country has the right to Freedom of Speech, even if that speech is hateful and ignorant and just plain stupid. But it's an undeniable right, and the only way to prove that, is to let Aryan Nations spread their messages. Of course, if the ACLU ever took their case, they'd probably give them a Jewish lawyer

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

"We will fight them with the one weapon which none can stand against!"
"What is that?"
"Being laughed at."

Don't fight them, don't lynch them, don't repress them. When one comes up to you and starts oozing his filth, just look him straight in the eye, smile a little smile, say "You're a looney" and walk away laughing.

They hate that; it gets inside their heads and crawls around like little bugses.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Some KKK guys went to the quad at TU last year and started protesting with signs and stuff. I think one guy took a swing at 'em, but the rest of us ignored 'em. The faculty turned up the radio at the Lecture Hall and drowned 'em out and they ain't been back since. It's a good philosophy, and it works.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I've seen it all.

Everything.

All of it.

I worked at the Ontario Human Rights Commission for several months while creating a special database for by supervisor involving cases closed or not pursued further. Usually Complaints involving discrimination of some sort that have been dismissed due to either lack of evidence, or because the complaint is unfounded, etc. etc. etc.

Well, one day I came across a complaint in which a white man filed against a company for firing him due to his religious background. Apparently, he was making very racist and sexist remarks towards other co-workers and he was terminated as a result. Well, in his complaint, he said that the company discriminated against his religion (Nazi-ism?) because:

- It was standard in his religion to make those remarks.
- The company refused to allow him to observe his religion, in the sense that companies allow other religions to observe theirs (i.e.: companies up here would allow Muslims to pray during their lunch breaks, and observe Muslim holidays, etc.....)

The case was killed because it was determined that despite this person's so-called religious affiliation, it was protecting the rights of the other co-workers by limiting their exposure to such crap. I also read in a letter written after the case, calling the OHRC a bunch of biased, anti-religion pigs for letting this kind of discrimination against him occur, and that he will appeal to the Highest Court in Canada. I do not know if he did, but I'll be damned if he gets his day in court.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, it's a difficult balance ... the right to free speech doesn't include screaming "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, for example.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

As your Dictator, I will promise to give the Neo-Nazis and Aryan Nations people their own homeland, and pay all the expenses to help them to it.

It'll be located on the surface of Mars, and the supplies will be consistent with Dan Quayle's "we can breathe there" observations, but it'll be their very own homeland... For as long as the landers' Oxygen holds out.

Gimmie Your Vote.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Hmm, just glanced at the Flameboard and thought to myself, "Motel Suede"? What kind of a kinky theme is that?

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

As kinky as ...

MOTEL TURNIP!

COMING SOON TO A GARDEN NEAR YOU!

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

Remember, the right to free speech is not the same as the right to be heard. If you truly want people to hear what you have to say, you need to work for it.

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

You're so right, Tahna Los, I also think that freedom of speech should not be unlimited or unconditionally upheld.

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Of course, who is to say what is wrong, and what we cannot hear. No, freedom of speech is just that, and nobody can, or has the right to limit or undermine our ability to say what we feel needs to be said.

The last thing we need is a board of Tipper Gores telling us what we can and cannot say. Any type of limitation of what constitutes 'freedom of speech', makes it entirely the opposite.

If you don't agree with what someone says, either do complain louder, or don't listen.

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"This is such an amazingly minor complaint. Does anyone actually watch episodes anymore, or is it just a notebook + pause button exercise these days?"
-Sol System on what constitutes modern day Star Trek watching, 02-22-01

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

This case, just like any case of discrimination by a private entity, should be thrown out of court. A private business has the right to refuse service to any person or group, be they KKK, black, gay, or neo-nazi, regardless of reason.

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Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

If I owned a company, I'd discriminate by religion. Not in the sense of "What's your religion? Oh, sorry, we don't want your type around here.". Rather, if someone wanted special treatment because of their religion, I'd tell them to go screw themselves. Like the example given, if some Muslim said he needed to take a break to go pray, I'd fire him for not doing his job.

Speaking of that, I also wouldn't allow nicotine-addicts extra breaks to smoke. That would be fun. *L*

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

That IS a good point. There are about five people in my office that spend about 35 minutes a day, in five minute periods, sucking down dat juice. And all of them say they try to quit once a year, never to succeed.
It's so sad, I really hope tobacco companies will start to vanish when my grandchildren grow up. "Insider" was a damned fine custard.

As for discrimination, how can nazis expect NOT to be differently treated after what they've done.
Of course, other groups have done foul deeds as well, in the past, but simply stating that you're "aryan" is a stupid move.
The term in question doesn't exist, the original aryans were said to be from north india, way back. Myths claimed they had "fair hair and blue eyes", like a genetic offshoot, an evolutionary project, never intended to survive in that longitude.
We north europeans simply resemble the description, then some crazy shithead (to quote Eddie Izzard) decides that aryan is the way to go.

Build your own goddamn motel, so that it can be infidel-free, as well!!

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Here lies a turnip god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"sucking down dat juice"

You're supposed to listen to those, not consume them.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

I find their use of the term Aryan pretty amusing in itself as its a misuse of a sanskrit (or perhaps farsi) term that actually denotes nobility (of actions atn thoughts, not lineage) and has shit all to do with White power. Hell the swastika is actually a Hindu religious symbol that those 'chaps' (read bastards) corrupted. Just like the term Aryan.

*Waits for TSN to make some comment about 'so called' aryans so he can thwack him over the head with a big stick*.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited February 26, 2001).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

And the salutes and Eagle-banners were from the romans.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, this might be me ...

But I don't think hotels should have the right to discrimate based on someone's skin color, sexual orientation, political beliefs, etcetra, etcetra. I may not agree to the Aryan philosophy, but they've got as much right to hold a meeting at a hotel as a Star Trek Convention or members of the Republican Party do.

Freedom of speech. Freedom to assemble.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

And what of the rights of the owner of the hotel, huh? It's his property, and he can deny entry or use. Just because an establishment is open to the public doesn't mean it's public property, and thus subject to the same laws.

You make such a big deal about freedom to assemble. What about MY right not to have my property stolen from me? 'Cause if I can't control it, it ain't mine no more. You don't seem to grasp the concept of private property. It means the property belongs to ME, no one else, and I can do whatever I darned well please with it.

they've got as much right to hold a meeting at a hotel as a Star Trek Convention or members of the Republican Party do.

Exactly. NONE. You stay in a hotel by the good graces of the owner, just like any other private establishment.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Bit hot under the color about this, aren't you?

The decision to keep them from appearing wasn't made by the owner, it was made by one person, an assistant manager or perhaps the hotel manager. The hotel-chain is most likely owned by another corporate entity, so finding one owner would be very hard. Besides, is a hotel even private property in the sense that the property belongs to the hotel, or to the people that pay to rent the rooms at the hotel?

People pay money, they get to stay. In this case, the group paid money, and when management found out they were members of a racist organization, they were discriminated against. That is wrong. It is wrong to discriminate against a group of people because of their political affiliation, even/especially if you don't agree with that ideology.

There's a difference between private property as in "a home" and private property as in a "building with lots of rooms rented out to individuals or groups." Learn it.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 26, 2001).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

This whole affair has been discussed very professionally and technically. What paragraph allows them to sue, what philosophies speak against them, etc.
We must consider the emotional and practical side as well. Do you know how many groups the "national democrats" are against? (That's the name of their party in Sweden...)

If that motel allows ONE "nazi-sympathist" convention then they will lose a LOT of customers in the area who either detest these people or are very afraid to be near them and get stared at or approached. I sure as hell wouldn't pull over, even though I'm swedish, blonde and green/blue eyed.

In fact, we swedes have a kind of inherited (although maybe misguided) guilt sprung from the days when Hitler on numerous occasions praised sweden for being so 'pure' and producing many aryans.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 26, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Besides, is a hotel even private property in the sense that the property belongs to the hotel, or to the people that pay to rent the rooms at the hotel?

Yes, the hotel is private property under the ownership of the owner of the hotel proper. This is a hotel, not a condo. You rent, not buy.

As for whether a manager of a franchise hotel could do as he did here, that would depend on the internal policy of the hotel chain, and upon any contract that the leasee might have signed. We'd have to look that up. But from a strict perspective of rights, a hotel could do this and easily be within it's rights.

Now if the hotel somehow violated a contract that said that they couldn't kick these people out, well, that's another story. They just did a stupid thing by signing the contract, but they'd be bound by it.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

What's the difference between a realtor refusing to sell a condo to a racist group and a hotel refusing to rent a room to a hotel room? Just wondering.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Do I need to comment your last post, son?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

::reads post::

Um. Hotel rooms have the undeniable right to rent other hotel rooms, dammit!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, I'm sure the architectural prime directive forbids us to stand in the way of inter-residential relations...

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Friday February 23:

AP Corrects Aryan-Motel Suit Story

quote:
SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - In a Feb. 22 story, The Associated Press erroneously described an organization called the 11th Hour Remnant Messenger as a neo-Nazi group.
According to leader R. Vincent Bertollini, the group does not consider itself neo-Nazi, although it does express anti-Semitic ideas and supports separation of the races.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Mongomery Burns

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, I guess there's a small difference...

Jay: Mongomery? I thought Mongo was sad. Maybe he found a little banana! (or banana-shaped turnip, in my case)

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

For once, Omega is right. The hotel is a private establishment. They can do whatever they want.

If you say the hotel can't be discriminatory, then you'd also have to say that the group in question also can't be discriminatory. That would mean they couldn't hold their meeting in the first place, so the question would be moot.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

"No shirt, no shoes, no service."
"We reserve the right to deny service."

Establishments make discriminations like this all the time. You don't have the 'right' to hotel space.

That's the problem with people these days; everything they decide they want is suddenly a 'right.'

These babies cry about 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom to assemble.' but NEITHER of those rights are infringed by the denial of service.

They can still speak. They just can't come indoors to do it. They still have the right to assemble. Just not on someone else's property.

To think otherwise is to accept as valid the proposition that I and a bunch of my friends can come over to your house and burp "The Star-spangled Banner" in your living room.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I would make the point that a hotel is not a private home.

Also, a hotel can NOT discriminate based on sex, religion, or race. Apparently, they can discriminate based on political opinion.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

quote:

I would make the point that a hotel is not a private home.

No, but it is still private property.

quote:

Also, a hotel can NOT discriminate based on sex, religion, or race.

Sure they can. Why do you think there are men only/women only clubs?

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Those are private organizations, Jeff. I'm fairly certain there is a difference between a country club and a hotel or motel.

I used to work for Choice Hotels for the VP of something very boring, and I am rather certain that businesses can not discrimate based upon skin color, sex, etcetra.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I'm fairly certain there is a difference between a country club and a hotel or motel.

Not in the legal sense. The only differences would be internal policy and any contracts that might have been signed. And internal policy is not legally binding. A motel is still private property, just like a restaraunt and a country club are.

I am rather certain that businesses can not discrimate based upon skin color, sex, etcetra.

So much for your certainties. Just because your particular hotel disallowed it doesn't mean it's illegal.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The Discrimination Act ... ? God-dammit, I'm fairly certain I'm correct here.

Wouldn't the Civil Rights Act forbid the discrimination of people based on those ... ?

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 27, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Taken directly from the Civil Rights Act of 1964 http://longman.awl.com/nash/primarysource_29_3.htm

TITLE II
Injunctive Relief Against Discrimination in Places of Public Accommodation

Sec. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

(1) any inn, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;

KA-BLOWIE!!!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Not being a lawyer ... that does say that hotels, motels, and inns can't discriminate by race, sex, etc., right?

Maybe I'm just not used to First posting stuff helping the argument I'm trying to make

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

DIVE! DIVE!

Somebody set up you the shutdown. Move zig.

Patricide. Because you've always wanted those golf clubs.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

?

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

That may or may not have been what Ultra Magnus (Hereforth known as 'UM') intended to post.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Um. Okay.

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Herm, about that bit from the American Civil Rights Act....maybe its just the little section you posted, and its implied by some other section of the law...but it seems rather...."small".

It "just" protects against "discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin", meaning that say discrimination on the basis of say, sexual orientation or political beliefs is perfectly fine and dandy?

And unless you count white supremacy as a religion, wouldn't it fall under the category of political beliefs?

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"The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything

[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited February 27, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, yes indeed, discrimination by poltical beliefs is fine, but the thread had wandered into the area where certain people said that hotels could discriminate against anyone.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Which, in accordance with the Constitution, they can. Quote any law you'd like. If it contradicts the constitution, it ain't valid law.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Thankfully, most of us live in the real world, not the Omegasphere, and those sorts of decisions are made by people and governmental bodies that include vanishingly small amounts of Omega.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

okey, okey...

so say if I have an public open party, and some guy decided to show up, and started to say stupid things like "all chinks sucks", and I kicked him out, would that be "discrimination" too?

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

You are not a place of public accommodation.

That is unless there is something we should know about.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

That sounds like it would be painful- being a public accomodation I mean.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

I don't know. I mean would a hooker be a public accomodation?

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Ah, but HERE's the rub. Second line, section b:
"...if its operations affect commerce,..."

And commerce, as every Constitutional scholar knows, is capable of being regulated by the Feds, in accordance with the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8, Paragraphs 3 and 18), and as upheld by every Supreme Court within recent memory, even the Conservative ones.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

commerce, as every Constitutional scholar knows, is capable of being regulated by the Feds

"The Congress shall have Power To... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

INTER-STATE commerce. That hardly discribes a hotel.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, see, if Mr. Trucker is taking a load of carrots to Indiana from California, and he's got no place to sleep 'cuz he's black and those hotels will discrimnate against him, it does affect commerce, yes?

Tourism is commerce. Why would people go visit Raleigh or Richmond or Milwaukee or wherever if a hotel could turn them away because they're (black/female)?

Your argument is faulty.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, okay, so maybe there is a law forbidding hotels to dsicriminate. But there shouldn't be.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

OK, I'm confused. What the heck is Tim doing on my side, and why is Rob on the other? *L*

Anyway, it ain't interstate commerce if the physical hotel exists in a single state. Your argument is faulty.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

But if the chain of hotel resides in MANY states, then it would be, wouldn't it?

Besides which, the simple fact the inter-state commerce could be impeded by hotels discriminating has implications reaching beyond one single state. (Sort of like, if you pollute up-stream, it hurts states down-stream).

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Omega: You are no longer in "Reality". You are now in a parallel universe where everyone who supports you is against you, and vice versa.....

Man, this world is pretty f*cked up here.

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I just love how a topic about whether or not racists should have the right to rent a room ...

Turns to whether or not hotels are a viable part of inter-state commerce or not

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

World Book Encyclopedia, 2000:

"The Supreme Court has interpreted 'commerce' to mean not only trade but also all kinds of commercial activity. The Supreme Court has ruled that interstate commerce includes not only transactions across state boundaries but also any activity that affects commerce in more than one state."

In other words, Congress's power extends to creating laws regulating businesses which have customers / patrons from more than one state; ie: almost all of them, including hotels.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that it's permitted.

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

I think we need to re-define "discrimination" somehow.

Cuz we all know that discriminating against African Americans is wrong.

But somehow kicking a Aryan Nation person out of a company because of racist opinions he express in public doesn't seem that wrong or "discriminating" to me.

I think relating the "hotal incidient" with black discrimination is unjustify in this case.

Want prove? Can't give you none, it's just a gut feeling, maybe some of you can help me work out the logic.

------------------
What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, you're right in that there is a difference in discriminating based on someone's skin color or sex and between discriminating based on someone's politics, which is essentially what happened here.

But is it right to discriminate against someone (or a group of someone's) because you don't agree with their politics? I mean, what if this group has no place to assemble -- hotels wouldn't let them book a conference room, the local towns and cities wouldn't issue them the permits to demonstrate, etc. Isn't that just as bad?

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

You're right, however, I don't think anyone will be complaining about if an Ayran Nation person gets kicked out of a hotal but himself.

Mind you, if he wasn't such a "lound mouth" and started talking about racist non-sense, he probably wouldn't be kicked out either.

freedom of believe is one thing, but if he is imposing on other with his believe, which I doubt anybody is willing to accept his, then isn't that an invation to other's personal freedom as well?

I mean what happen if a hotel went out of business because a Aryan Nations group decided to hold a conference in this hotel, and the hotel can't refuse the order, because of the so called "freedom of believe", then who is to blame?

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

damn, tons of grammer mistakes on my previous post.

it should be "invasion", instead of "invation"

and it should be "loud mouth", not "lound mouth".

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

>"But is it right to discriminate against someone (or a group of someone's) because you don't agree with their politics?"

Apparently so. It's called "Political Correctness."

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Want prove? Can't give you none, it's just a gut feeling

Just like the rest of liberalism, huh?

Come on. You set yourself up for that one.

But is it right to discriminate against someone (or a group of someone's) because you don't agree with their politics?

We're not talking about what IS right. We're talking about what rights you HAVE. There's a difference. I have a right to go get drunk every night, treat my family like dirt, and sleep with every girl I can get my hands on. That doesn't mean that it IS right, it just means that, in a free society, I legally can.

I can discriminate based on anything I darned well please. I may have to answer for that to my customers or employers, but the government can't touch me. Why not? Because then they'd be discriminating against MY beliefs.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Unless they pass an ammendment which makes it legal

. In which case your little law abiding sentiment gets blown out of the water.

Omega, sometimes the laws don't do whats needed. So you get it done by doing whatever it takes. Afterall, the law cannot be static, it must adapt to the needs of the people, its there to serve their interests. That's one of the reasons I find your clinging to the constitution (which in the end is just a scrap of paper) so funny. Some parts just aren't relevant anymore. It's called updating, and dealing with todays realities. Not just the realities you see through the little prism you live in.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

That's just it, Daryus, The Constitution was set up so that it doesn't change, but rather fits any situation in the first place. Its not a "living, breathing" Constitution as some would believe. It is static- with exception to the admendments- it fits all situations. Sort of like a Swiss Army knife.

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Which is why some people think the Highway system is un-Constitutional, right?

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Unless they pass an ammendment which makes it legal. In which case your little law abiding sentiment gets blown out of the water.

Ah, but then it wouldn't really be a free society any more, would it?

Which is why some people think the Highway system is un-Constitutional, right?

Only a federally administered one.

Omega, sometimes the laws don't do whats needed. So you get it done by doing whatever it takes.

"Screw the law, do what's necessary?" Isn't this the very definition of Facism?

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

"Want prove? Can't give you none, it's just a gut feeling"
Just like the rest of liberalism, huh?

Come on. You set yourself up for that one.

I find that comment really offensive Omega. I just wish you'd stop making these kinds of generalizations about liberals.

On a related note, Jeff Raven: I find that quote from Rush Limbaugh in your sig also offensive. I meant to bring that up with you before, but since Omega said this, may as well.

So we are nothing but gutless people who don't think, only complain, huh? *storms off*

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 01, 2001).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Well, if it bothers you, why not add your own .sig claiming that all conservatives are racist misogynists who only take their hands off their dicks when they're counting their money or beating their wives or closeted gay lovers? It wouldn't be true, or even vaguely accurate, but since when have truth and accuracy meant anything here?

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Oh, no, I've offended Tahna! Oh, how can I ever live with myself, knowing that I've commited such a horrible crime against humanity!

Grow up.

Oh, and if you didn't notice, there was a little there, indicating a humorous intent.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Pardon me, but I do not see the humour in that. Not when it is a general statement about Liberals and Liberalism.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 01, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Something is offensive only if its untrue. There is no such thing as something which is 'offensively truthful.'

Therefore, we must determine if the majority of Liberal-ish beliefs are dictated by 'feeling' more than they are by Reason.

And my tentative hypothesis is "yes, they are,"

First datum for evidence: The EXCEEDLY large number of times they complain about being 'offended' by something. Even Fundies don't moan that much when somebody makes a "poop" Mary painting.

Second datum: "Political Correctness."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

How about this... People who feel the need to label themselves and others as "liberals" or "conservatives" and use those as a basis for generalization would do the rest of us a favor by jumping off the nearest tall building.

Better? :-)

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We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

First: While I do believe that you are correct, I believe the implications that describe Liberals as Gutless non-thinkers is not as you describe "truthful" (I detest Rush's use of the word Gutless). You may have your reasons for agreeing with what Rush believes, fine. I unfortunately do not have the time nor the stomach at this current moment to discuss Liberalism. Not in this forum at the very least.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 01, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Actually, I never listen to Rush Limbaugh.
O'Reilly's much better, IMHO.

As for 'gutless...' well, I have a gut, but I'm trying to lose it.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, JeffK, you certainly picked a good flamethread, I lift my turnip to you. This thing fills all requirements.

If the "alleged" rasists and their proposed convention had been examined, it probably wouldn't have deserved the label "agitation against an ethnic group", and that's the only way I see the motel could've won.

If, of course, it wasn't a "conference-center" type of motel, who I believe can accept or decline their customers at will.
My company works with several conference centers (we set them up with computers and projectors) and I believe they are pretty choosy with their customers. They don't want to look like whores...

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, who would? They'd want to look like a high-priced "escort", I'm sure

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

Ha.....

High price escort, that one really kills!

and now, for no reason at all...

ALL YOUR "ESCORT" ARE BELONG TO US!

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

*suddenly, BlueElectron finds himself inundated w/ Ford cars*

Careful what you wish for... :-)

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We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
"Wowsers!"
-Star Trek: Series ?: "A Pair o' Docs, part II"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I dream of dancing with turnips in the pale moonlight, but they never come...

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Because Batman pushed them off the cathedral, I would assume.

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Sol said:

quote:

Thankfully, most of us live in the real world, not the Omegasphere, and those sorts of decisions are made by people and governmental bodies that include vanishingly small amounts of Omega.

Now I understand that "Voyager" episode, and why the Federation was trying to destroy all the particles of Omega.

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I DO NOT ENJOY BOTH GENDERS!!!
Ultra Magnus

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

LOL... that was good.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Fools! Now he'll throw himself in the arms of the borg, how can unlock his true potential!!! WE'RE DOOMED!!!

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

::sigh::