Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Is This Conservatism?

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Before I proceed, I'll note that the source of the following article is The Toronto Star. It is a left-of-centre newspaper that I usually read on my way to work. Despite its political standing, every political party left or right receives some form of criticism from the Star's Editorial Board (just last week, the Star lambasted a Liberal Party Minister).

Okay. Now on to the real issue I'd like to bring up. This Editorial appeared not too long ago, and I am looking for opinions on the actions of this Conservative political party that runs Ontario. Let the debate begin.

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"Or maybe he was a real quack who got sick and tired of pissing people off, and decided to get a life and masterbate for the next 10 years."
- Me to Antagonist on Red Quacker, 03/08/01 20:15

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

This certainly isn't conservativism as I would define it. Rather, stupidity. Remember though, the underlying flaw in this situation is the socialized medicine you guys have up there. If Doctors were set to compete in the market of healthcare, this problem wouldn't have arisen.

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"Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Taking your point into consideration, the founding fathers of Medicare believed that Medical access should come on a first-come-first-serve basis so that nobody with fat wallets would jump the queue. Otherwise we would have a supremely superior system for those who can afford it, and a bare-bones, useless system for everyone else who can't, if such a system for the rest of them exists at all. May as well just roll up and die if you have a simple flesh wound.

Now back to the rest of the article. The policies of the Progressive Conservative (better known as PC, or Tory) had originated from several of the States, as Mike Harris put it at one point. The article stresses its results. And Mike Harris is a proud Conservative.

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 28, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Remember "Critical Care"? That hospital ship was the ultimate HMO. Run by a bureaucrat, unindividualized, etc.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

Canada's healthcare system may have it's problems but it's one of the best in the world, and there is no prejudice based on succes, race, religion or economic standing.

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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

-Nimrod 16/4/2001

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

*L*

One of the best in the world? Only if you don't count the people who die in your hospitals while waiting for the government to decide whether they really NEED treatment or not.

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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

"It may have it's problems"

Yes, yes it does. Quite a few. While perhaps not as dire as Omega seemed to indicate, the situation certainly needs to get better than it is. It's unfortunate that Red Tape cannot heal wounds, because you're more likely to get that than to recieve a band-aid.

"best in the world"

In comparison to Malawi and Gabon, sure. So does most of the industrialized world. I seem to recall reading an article that the UN found that Sweden(? Perhaps another Scandinavian country) had the most effective health care. Anyone know anything more?

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited March 28, 2001).]

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

The Politicians who are running this health care system are a bunch of morons. While the Prime Minister is short two bales of a haystack, Premier Harris is gutting the Ontario Health Care system in hopes of saying: "Hey, it doesn't work, we need two tiered healthcare here". He has stressed on many occassions that Private Healthcare should be considered because to ease the "problems" in the Public Healthcare system.

Problems HE created.

What a moron.

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 28, 2001).]

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I really don't see it that way, Tahna... Everyone knows there are problems with socialized healthcare. Certainly that politician is trying to cause it to crash all the more sooner, though. Two wrongs don't make a right, I guess.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

As if there aren't problems with privatized health care.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

Not "as if" Jeff. Yes, there are problems with privatized healthcare. But at this point, its the best system there is.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Politicians decide who gets treated? Omega I get the feeling that you think anything that is run by the government involves direct decision making by pollies...ye need a reality check.

You come in, state you needs and get treated. Thats how it is here.

Your hospital system in the states will treat people, then hit them with a bill so large they'll need another operation to recover from the shock.

But then, I guess that doesn't fall within your bounds of being morally unacceptable.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
its the best system there is.

Except for the people that can't afford it ...

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Eat the poor.

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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
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Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Or stuff them into a rocket and shoot them into the sun.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

*Files the last two comments under "Less Than Useless" and fires THEM into the sun.*

I AM "the poor." If it weren't for my parents, and the fact that I love at home, I'd be living one paycheck away from being homeless. Thank goodness for the benefits of having A JOB.

Are there any employers left that DON'T have some kind of health plan?

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Be glad you have a job. Be glad that your job gives you a health plan.

And if your boss fires you tomorrow, then I guess you have a big problem.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

As I think we've been over in previous threads, some health plans are next to worthless. Also, many companies don't offer a health plan to it's employees until they've worked for a significant period of time.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Okay, that part's true. I didn't get full benefits until I'd worked for a year. Of course, your chances in any given year of acquiring an illness that exceeds a couple of doctor visits is pretty low, if you're the average person. A flu or cold? Those are viral and they can't do much for it anyway. And didja know that ER's have to treat you whether you're covered or not?

As for losing my job.. it could happen, I suppose, despite the fact that I'm a government employee. But then, there's always another job. 120,000 new jobs created each month, according to the network news last night. I'm sure I could get one, with my education and background, if I tried.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"Eat the poor."

That = ironical joke

Thread needs = lightening up

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

While Sol's Mass = Large.
His Weight = Light.
Therefore Sol = Master of Levity.
Or, gravity <> -9.8N.

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
And didja know that ER's have to treat you whether you're covered or not?

Gee -- sounds like socialized medical care right there, don't it?

Actually, I had a rather nasty ingrown toenail on my big toe last year. Had to get the toe numbed, and then cut open so they could remove the offending nail-fragment and cauterize it closed again.

I doubt the ER woulda done that. Suffice to say, my "health insurance" barely matched my deductible. Insurance my ass ...

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Oh my God, an ingrown tonenail! Call the whaambulance!

100 years ago, you could have taken care of that at home with a sharp penknife and a good bottle of whiskey.

But seriously... we all need more first aid training. One of the reasons our health care system is overburdened is that people are going to the hospitals for splinters and crap.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

They will treat you if you are in an emergency situation, like say, beaten by a gang of thugs, but then you'll have to deal with a $65,000 bill.

As for getting a job, yes, given your background and experience, you may be able to get one, BUT, don't try to be too optimistic. I made that mistake once and was without a job for about 6 months.

And if you are forced to work at a McDonalds, well......

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 31, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

If you are forced to work at a McDonalds... you're still working. As Ann Landers said: "Your grandparents had a different name for burger flipping. They called it opportunity."

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

But do you get health insurance?

And yes, flipping burgers is a job, but then again, if that's the only job that you can get, is it very useful?

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

[bah]

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 31, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

1of2: Better to get it taken care of by professionals as it was infected at the time

Seriously, even if MacD's has health-care, it's probably not very good for the average register clerk, and s/he's probably got to work their for quite a while before they even get it.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Here's another article about a somewhat different subject, but it is similar in content to the first one.

Click Here

What Say you? True Conservatism at work?

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

quote:

...in line with Section 31 (appendix 2) of regulation 298."

Hmmmm

To be honest, that article strikes me more as conspiracy theory than rational critique of Harris. And trust me, rationally critiquing Harris is hardly rocket science.

Of course, Harris' grand plans for his "Common Sense Revolution" will never be realized when he loses the next election in a few years (two to go?). McGuintey's got what, a twenty-point lead? He should mop the floor.

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"Tony Blair like me uses Colgate"
-George W. Bush on forging new Anglo-American ties

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I personally don't like McGuinty.

No Charisma, whatsoever. Doesn't have the leadership abilities to run anything. Harris, yes he does, too bad he's got the wrong political mindset.

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"In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night."
- Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM