_______________________________________________________
FROM: Barbara Dozetos, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network (All rights reserved)
Friday, April 13, 2001 / 05:05 PM
Sentiments ranging from disappointment to outrage are being expressed regarding the Florida legislator who told gay teens they would be destroyed by God.
The Florida state representative who surprised a group of GLBT high school students earlier this week with a lecture on the evils of homosexuality is facing a backlash from across the country.
Rep. Allen Trovillion, a 74-year-old Republican representing suburban Orlando, met with students from the Gay And Lesbian Idea eXchange for Youth (GALIXY) on April 9. The students were seeking support for a bill that would add sexual orientation to Florida's non-discrimination laws. During the meeting, Trovillion told GALIXY members that God would destroy them and that he would do everything in his power to see that the bill was not passed. (See PlanetOut News of January April 10.)
"It is regretful that any public official anywhere in the country would behave is such a manner," wrote openly gay New Hampshire State Rep. Raymond Buckley, the Democratic Whip, in a letter to Trovillion.
"The halls of [New Hampshire's] State House have been abuzz today regarding your outrageous behavior. It is my hope and the hope of many of my colleagues that you issue a statement of apology immediately," wrote Buckley, a seven-term member of the New Hampshire body. "The alternative, of course, would be to do the honorable thing and resign."
Trovillion Responds
Trovillion released an unapologetic statement on April 12, reemphasizing his belief that current laws, which do not bar sexual orientation-based discrimination, were all the protection anyone needed.
"I'm surprised, but not shocked, that someone here hasn't asked for Trovillion's resignation," said Stephen Roberts, president of the Log Cabin Club of Orlando, a chapter of the national gay Republican organization.
"He's an idiot and hopefully he won't be in politics much longer," said Roberts, an accountant who also volunteers with GALIXY. He said the incident caught him by surprise because Trovillion, while not supportive of civil rights for gays and lesbians, has never been vocally anti-gay before.
Fallout for One Student
Roberts said he was initially concerned about one of the students who was not out at his high school before the story of the meeting hit local newspapers. Ironically, noted Roberts, Trovillion's insistence that the students needed no protection led to more verbal abuse for 17-year-old Chris Vasquez. "Chris had to listen to some ugly comments on the bus the next day," Roberts said. However, the outpouring of support Vasquez has received since then has been tremendous, he added.
Roberts lamented the continued existence of a "good old boy network" in Florida politics. Its members, including Trovillion, are resistant to change and don't reflect the views of the majority of the population, said Roberts. "Our only hope is with the kids."
However, Trovillion's daughter, who is being groomed as the heir to his legislative seat, told the Tampa Tribune she saw nothing wrong with what her father had said to the students.
"This apple has not fallen far from the tree," said Roberts. "And this tree is full of bananas."
The chorus of voices decrying Trovillion's behavior includes many Florida congressmen, the chair of the Democratic National Committee and GLBT activist groups.
Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's office is responding to a flood of e-mail with replies saying, "The representative's opinions are his own, and he does not speak for the governor." The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force is asking people to call Gov. Bush's office and urge him to condemn Trovillion's statements. And the Human Rights Campaign, a GLBT lobbying group, has posted contact information for Rep. Trovillion on its site.
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This makes me sick. Needless to say, i've joined the fight to get rid of this Nazi.
Have a nice Easter.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
But the dude was just making an religious comments and expressed his opinions about homosexuality. and isn't it true that Christian do have something about homosexuals?? Wouldn't it be justified for him to make that specific comment if he's a hardcore Christian?? (I'm not sure about that one, feel free to varify me on that).
And it's not like he suddenly went on TV and said "death to all gay", in this situation, this perticular group ask for support and was denied by him because of his believe, and some people choose to respond softly and some people harshly. So be it! This group is stupid not to have done more research and get a less homophobic person in the first place.
For a country that allow "Mein Kompt" in public liberies, hate literatures floating around in free markets, and "White Power" parades, you guys sure are "frigit" when it comes to freedom of thought and speech on the issue of homosexuality.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
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God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
Imagine one of our supreme justices or the President making such a comment if it puts it into perspective. Would they dare? I don't think they would.
If the President said he was an avid supporter of Hitler and believed Jews were an inferior race and was therefore not going to make public appearances for any Jewish organization, he would probably be forced out of office.
Also, there are more tactful ways to say the same thing, and probably without ruining one's prospects for re-election. Such as "I'm sorry, but I cannot support your organization due to my own personal beliefs, and must decline your invitation." Not "I cannot support you! All homosexuals will burn in Hell for their sins!"
* * *
I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.
- The original Pledge of Allegiance
[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited April 15, 2001).]
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
People should be free to say what they want, when they want, how they want, not to be tied up to how some feel that such and such is offensive.
I would much rather be called an ignorant, stump-jumping, half-assed, lazy, bastard, than, say, have a goofball shoot at me.
Tell me I am going to burn in hell for my sins, over burning me at the post.
People are way too touchy about the words, when they kindly ignore the little actions that lead to bigger actions that do harm people.
Like the kids in one of those school shooting... "Gee, he made a hit list, but we thought he was joking..." If he had said he made a hit list that's one thing, but to see the actual thing is another.
And....
A seperation of Church and State can not happen, with out the complete and total removal of one or the other. Both touch us daily, whether we believe or not, so to put a politician in to a situation where he can have no thoughts or voice about his opinions and thoughts is wrong. Unless you can do it. The matter of tact is usless, since what we find, as individuals, tactful is different.
I don't find it odd to discuss a customers late account with them while they are rolling a joint, I could careless about his hobbies. He paid his bill after he finished and lit up, even offered me a hit.
I guess this boils down to, don't cast the stone unless you are perfect. (Damn, that has religious context, I should be burned......)
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
He simply make a religious reference with his own personal believe. If Christianity do believe that homosexual is a sin, then it's justified for him to make such a comment.
"If the President said he was an avid supporter of Hitler and believed Jews were an inferior race and was therefore not going to make public appearances for any Jewish organization, he would probably be forced out of office."
Now that is an unfair comparison, making a statment about Jewish people being inferior race violate their basic "rights" and "freedom", while the old dude say nothing that would violate homosexuals' "rights" and "freedom". He simply express his disagreements with homosexuality, and tie that up with his religious believe, which, like I said before, can be justified.
If people think what he said does not appeal to his/her opinions, then do something about it through a civilized or demoncratic process, which is to vote him out of the office next term. To force him out of the office by peer pressure just prove that people cannot accept "reasonable" opinion of others. (I quote the word reasonable because like I said, in his statement, he did not violate gay people's freedom or right)
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
I couldn't care less if the man (Trovillion) is a raging homophobe, anti-Jew, whatever...what he believes is his own business.
The fact he did it to a group of gay-lesbian-bi teens is what offends me.
Daniel's right. He could have said "I'm sorry, but I cannot support your organization due to my own personal beliefs, and must decline your invitation." But the fact that he said that homosexuals will burn in hell to an AUDIENCE who's suicide rate is way higher than straight teens because of this kind of intolerance is offensive and hurtful.
And what Trovillion said wasn't hurtful?
"Trovillion's insistence that the students needed no protection led to more verbal abuse for 17-year-old Chris Vasquez. "Chris had to listen to some ugly comments on the bus the next day," "
Trust me, I know from personal experience on this one. My best friend Jason killed himself because of the rampant homophobia in his home and school. Hell, i've nearly done it myself! I've had some particually viscious things said to me. I was kicked out of my own home because my parents were homophobic to the extreme. And yeah, I got into a fight or two because some twit homophobe thought he could make a target out of me. He quickly learned his particular mistake on that one. But that's a whole different topic.
The problem with all this, is the fact that out of all the bigotry in this country is that homophobia is the last really big one to be tackled and dealt with. Gay kids are dying in droves, thanks to so called "Christian" leaders like Trovillion and followers of his ilk who listen to him and help perpetuate homophobia. Words can't kill?
Think again.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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"Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond
But the fact remain, he didn't say anything inappropriate from a legal standpoint, and should not be forced out of office.
I don't agree with "more protection" for homosexual students though. Rather then working on protection for gay student, we should work on better educating students about homosexuality. Beside, giving more protection for homosexual only create unfair share of resources between gay and straight people, and probably single out the homosexual even more.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
man, you guys sure are unfortunate, people suiciding all around you, get robbed in your own neighbourhood, getting picked on in school, and the list just go on and on...
Man, don't take this personally, the life you guys have are pretty depressing.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
However, he was within his legal rights to do what he did. He's allowed to his opinion. He's allowed to express his opinion. He's allowed to express his opinion, even if it's to someone who's going to go kill him/her/itself over it. Morally, his actions are reprehensible. Legally, I don't really see that he's done anything wrong (i.e. criminal).
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
Where does that come from?????
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
I agree. To a point. But you sometimes have homophobic teachers/teachers who won't enforce the current "Thou Shall Not Beat The Hell Out Of Your Fellow Student For ANY REASON" rule.
B-E also goes on to say..."Man, don't take this personally, the life you guys have are pretty depressing."
Yeah. Hell of a thing to CHOOSE to be, eh? Oh well. (BTW, snarky sig. :-) )
Tim-San also went on to say: "However, he was within his legal rights to do what he did. He's allowed to his opinion. He's allowed to express his opinion. He's allowed to express his opinion, even if it's to someone who's going to go kill him/her/itself over it. Morally, his actions are reprehensible. Legally, I don't really see that he's done anything wrong (i.e. criminal)."
Unfortunatly, that's true. The voters from his district, however will have the final say. :-)
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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The negotiations have failed. Shoot him!
~ C. Montgomery Burns
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
Anyway, I would just like to point out that he made a religious and blatantly homophobic statement not only about making an appearance for the group, but also regarding a BILL that was trying to be passed. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the bill, that does add slightly more weight to the argument than we seem to think. It was not that he was ONLY denying them support, but was vowing to sink the bill at the same time.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I should note that "gay" is quite often used over here as an insult (at least amoungst university students). The thing is, it is used by people who are completely non-homophobic, and it's used to describe things that have nothing to do with homosexuality. I've even got a gay friend who uses it.
Besides, I have a feeling that the US version of Queer as Folk will be horrible. Watch the UK version. It does occasionally suffer from the "Look! We're gay! We're doing shocking things!", and it also occasionally depicts gay sexual acts that would come under a lot of flack if a similar hetrosexual thing was done, but it's funny. And it has Doctor Who references! Which make it at least 32% better.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
I mean, I doubt he was a closet Christian Fundamentalist until this one incident...its possible but doubtful.
Is it possible that he was elected in that area because his voters knew of his views and supported them? And he's only now in hot water because the story has gone "national"?
In which case, he's just giving his voters exactly what they voted for....thats his job: representing his local constituency, and not the country at large.
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"The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything
Let's use this for an example. (I hate examples but in this case...)
Rep. Bob Smith (I) is known for his stand on anti-affirmative action legislation. Rep. Smith supports doing away with any affirmitive action laws and on top ofthat, would do away with any kind of funding of social programes that benifit minorities. He's even been known to make the occasional racist comment. So, our illustrious Rep. Smith goes to a High School that's predomitatly black. He gives a speech on the evils of affirmative action programs and social welfare spending. He then finishes up his speech with the quote "Y'know, if you niggers wasn't so lazy and busy killin' each other over who's got the best sneakers, you could be prouctive citizens."
Now, in the real world, this represenative would be soooooo barbecued in the press and anywhere else and his political career would be all but over. Trovillion does exactly what i've used as an explanation but it's perfectly allright because it was to a bunch of "Sodomites", then it's perfectly allright.
Sure, he can say, think, want, feel as much as he wants. That's freedom of speech. He also has the freedom to express himself as the asshole that he is. That's fine too. That's not however the whole point of all this.
The point is that this "person" said something which will be heared by others as carte blanche to commit hate crimes. That's exactly WHY sexual orientation should be added to the list that Trovillion wants to shoot down in the Florida legislature. We're (meaning gay and lesbian people in this state) are sick and TIRED of being beaten or murdered left and right and the cops not doing ANYTHING about it.
Liberty and Justice for all? Ha. What a sick joke.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
1) It's hard to distinguish the Christian Fundamentalists from the Right wingers, probably because that's where they all reside. You don't see that many Fundies on the left side of the political spectrum. Our version of the US Republican Party is so full of bigots that disparaging remarks are all too common in that party
2) If Bush wants to protect his integrity, he should call for this guys head. Otherwise, this incident will come to stain this party for the next 4 years he is in office.
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"In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night."
- Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
Quatre made an excellent point: looking at what happened to Mathew Shephard, and the hate that exists for homosexuals, Trovillion is fanning the flames. He's just made it "okay" to kill a fag, because, hey, that's what God is going to do anyway. Why not save the Almighty some work, hmmm?
Maybe Trovillion'll find his way to a horny Klingon gay bathhouse.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..."
-Jay, July 15, 2000
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
Prejudice has been here since the dawn of mankind, it is here today, and it will be here untill the day that an intelligent force smites us and saves the universe from the plague that is mankind.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Jordan, you have an English boyfried (or, at least, a boyfriend who lives in England), right? Have you ever compared notes about how the two countries treat their gay population?
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
And no, I am not one of those crazy black wearing goth people(and I think they're sick, and yes I do realize that is a prejudiced statement) But I used to beleive that life is shit, untill I met my special someone. And the fact remains that humanity has done nothing good ever since their creation, and I fail to see how you can deny that.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Liam: Yeah, Mark and I have traded notes about how fucked up homophobia is across the pond.
UM: Yup. *nodnod*
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
Mother Teresa. All the teachers who remain in their profession despite constant harrasment and low pay. Ghandi. All the non-corrupt police officers who put their lives on the line every day to make our lives safer. Abraham Lincoln. All the soldiers who fought in the two world wars for freedomn, knowing that they were very likely to die. Martin Luther King. The people who riked their lives going into space to expand the human frontier. Winston Churchill. Everyone who spends their lives helping mentally or physically disabled people. And lots, lots more.
While you may not be a goth (which I don't believe I actually mentioned), but between "Humans are all assholes" and "what me and my partner have is one in a million", I'm guessing you don't have a whole lot of real life experience from the bad side of 20.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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"You put the geeks on the left and the stalkers on the right and you run for daylight up the middle"
- William Shatner, discussing a Star Trek Convention on EW-
What "actual" good have we done? I think thats what infinity11 is trying to say in a disjointed fashion.
(And fixing up other people's messes isn't an answer - Crapping on your desk and cleaning it up, on the whole isn't very admirable)
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"The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything
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And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see
Love to be
In the arms of all I'm keeping here with me
- Jeff Mangum
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"Excuse me, Mr. Rampaging Killer? Why don't you put down the gun and take a look at this hand-held monkey? Does it not have clever little forepaws? It eats gum and sap!"
--
L. Fitzgerald Sj�berg
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and something pleasent will happen to you. Possibly involving syrup.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
How are teachers fixing other peoples mistakes? How are people who look after mentally and physically handicapped people fixing other peoples mistakes?
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
Now, class, this one is orange, denoting a construction zone. Alright, time for our role-playing class. Timmy! You'll be the car, and the rest of you will be his obstacles.
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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
0_0
HA! You lot are SO fucked up! (I mean the Yanks; not Quatre, etc)
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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.
"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
Teachers, good ones, can help by teaching people out of abhorant behaviors, self or parent taught.
Mental Health works can fix peoples mistakes by helping those that need it, instead of locking away someone for a treatable, drugs or therapy, mental illness.
Infantrymen can help my ridding the world of genocidal maniacs.
Cops can by shooting those that may or may not be fleeing from them..... ahhh, ooopsss, wrong thread....
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Now I am not gay, but I am most certainly different and people have been giving me shit about that my entire life. How do I deal with it? I ridicule their shortcomings, and I disgrace them infront of large groups, which leads to them developing an inferiority complex and scars them for life. I may not be very nice in doing so, but I've been labeled as a loser by the so-called "In-Crowd", and I personally tend to beleive that if the person calling me a loser does not know what five plus two is, he doesn't deserve to get away with that. Joe Blow is a bad man, and he should be kicked in the same place he likes to kick others, because beleive it or not, there is no other way.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
I can't appreciate what he said, I can appreciate that he is a man of convictions, willing to stand by them, even though it may mean his career is shot.
I also can't throw any stones.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Not perhaps a touch hypocritical are we?
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited April 17, 2001).]
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
So this is why people are having such a hard time accepting that police need to accept responsibility when they use excessive force?
Please reply in the appropriate thread.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
To me, your way of doing things is to see who has the ability out last the others abuse, of any type.
May you learn.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
That's where the fire department has been going wrong then.
It's not true anyway. Squirtle would destroy Charmander everytime. Why Ash, why? Why get rid of Squirtle? GOD DAMN IT, WHY?
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
Jeff: I did not say there was something wrong with your argument, but I thought I was giving an example to Ritten that he could relate to.
Ritten: That's not what I meant, and it really pains me to see when people choose to forgo the obvious intended meaning, and search for a second one while idiotically beleiving it destroys my argument. It doesn't, so stop pissing me off with that, please!
And oh,my god, what extremem cases are you talking about? go to friggin' high school!! EVERYONE is like that, even some of the nerds, they get themselves off thinking they're cool.
Liam: Yes ash is an idiot, and so are people that don't understand metaphors, take that in any way you wish.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Okay, let's look at this rationally.
(I know, that will be a little difficult for some of us, but try anyway.)
#1. People have the right to think and say whatever they feel to be true. If you disagree with this fact, It is my opinion that you should go and destroy yourself as quickly as possible, because you will end up becoming the very tyrannical oppressive type which you so abhor. We don't need any more of those.
#2. Saying what you think in front of a group of people who are quite obviously going to be opposed to what you are saying is... well, it's not displaying a survival instinct. It's tactless, boorish, and, well, STUPID.
#3. Stupidity is grounds for not re-electing someone. It is not, however, grounds for assault and battery. People who strike at words are, in my opinion, WEAK.
When speaking your mind becomes illegal, then we will have entered the era of the police state.
If a person does not want to be attacked for what they are, and is not willing to put up the fight if they are, then they should not attack others for what THEY are.
Now: on fighting back.
If you choose the path of non-violence, which is the best path to keep yourself out of trouble and alive (because remember, there is ALWAYS someone better), there are three prevailing options, depending upon the situation.
1: Dialogue and Education: TALK to other people about what you think and feel. Have some tact. Be polite. Don't yell or get in their face. LISTEN to THEM. Discuss things. You will find that if you put forth a good enough argument, most individuals will listen to what you have to say. Some of them might even THINK about it. Even YOU might learn something. This is the best way to combat people like an idiot representative. The court of public opinion.
2: Ignore it: This option is good in school, IF there is no real danger of escalation. Listen, most of the people who will give you a problem are morons. Who cares for the opinion of a moron? You shouldn't. I don't. Only if the moron becomes a legitimate threat.
3: Similar to 2. Laugh at it. Nothing devastates a fool like the realization that he's being laughed AT, and not with. For this, it may take slightly more direct measures, and a bit of wit, and a command of the english language. "You, sir, have the intellect of a hamster, and the penis of a rat." "Do the world a favor.. NEVER breed."
For those who choose, or are at last, forced, to use the path of violence, I offer these bits of advice:
Know your enemy. If he is the type who will stay away after a sound thrashing, go to it. If he's the type who'll just get madder and come back later, reconsider. Because you will probably have to kill him. If so, it's better to know that going in than after he retaliates. If you are not willing to do what must be done, do not engage.
There are always consequences to any violent action. You may be witnesed, caught, and punished. You may lose. You may even develop a conscience. If you are not willing to deal with the repurcussions, do not engage.
Wear gloves.
Blood is traceable, even after its washed off.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
Thanks for clearing that up ... I was wonderin' if that was just an example, or ... well, right.
I think what Liam means, is ... how to put this? When you fight fire with fire, how much better a person are you?
Be a better person. Don't resort to violence. I've done it, back in my high school days. Doesn't really gain you anything, except some people desiring revenge. ::Shrug::
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
This is exactly how we're gonna change the world.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
While I do agree with most of First's points, I have found out that using sub-Blackadder instults at big people tends to produce, in order:
1/ A confused look
2/ A "fuck off"
and then, often:
3/ A slight escalation of bullying.
While saying "you couldn't find your brains if they were 12 foot tall, waving a big sign saying "I am your brains", while singing "Brains, brains, glorious brains" might sound good coming out of the mouth of Rowan Aktinson, it sounds akward and, dare I say it, twattish, if you actually use it in real life.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
Is that your nose, or did a bus park on your face?
RuPaul called, he wants his clothes back.
My god, I've just been insulted by a man who's so stupid he thinks a quarterback is a refund.
etc.
Another way to avoid having to fight is to cause your opponent to believe you are more dangerous than you actually are (even if you ARE dangerous).
For instance, the rumor circulated that my father patrolled the property at night with a machine gun (a half-truth; my father, being security conscious for good reasons which I won't go in to, did on occasion walk around our farm armed with a shotgun or his pistol. Mostly, he used them on woodchucks and opossums. Sometimes I went with him.
So sometimes people would come up to me at school and ask: "Hey, is it true that you and your dad walk around at night with machine guns?"
To which I would smile, and reply: "Of course not. Machine guns are illegal."
-or-
When I was a kid, we kept cows in our back field, surrounded by an electric fence. My brother and I used to test orselves by touching long blades of grass to the fence, thus giving ourselves light shocks.
In my 10th grade physics class, the class built a hand-cranked dynamo to demonstrate electromagnetism. The teacher allowed each of us to hold onto the dynamo's leads while the others cranked the engine, to see the strength of the current it produced. Guess who 'shocked' the class by holding on longer than anybody else, even the football players? (In fact, I held on longer than they could keep the dynamo going.)
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
About the sharp wit, the problem is when people want to fight for other reasons than when they think they hate you.
They usually want to prove themselves to their buddies, to try and regain some self-esteem their dads have successfully beaten out of them, or they simply want to show off. No amount of words will do then...
I practiced Ju-Jutsu during the more dangerous and exposed years of school. The bullies carried that shred of uncertainty with them and it kept me out of trouble most of the time.
Chance had something to do with it as well. I threw away a guy once, with a simple ogoshi-throw, and expected him to get right back up again, slightly less eager to fight. He landed on his left wrist, shattering it. It was more than I aimed for, but he never bothered me again.
I got a reprimand from my Sensei, he was very clear about his students not abusing their knowledge. It took a while before I realized I was the one dealing out the suffering then.
The same stroke of bad luck, and lack of experience, made me almost mutilate an opponent in a Kumite-match. I was aiming for his abdomen with a straight Mae Geri kick, hit both his testicles, inside of his cup, stopping his breathing. We had to stretch him out immediately so he could get some air. It was very embarrassing and I felt so sorry for him.
So for me, showing off or putting too much faith in my abilities has made people see me as a bully.
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
We're allowed to say that we should kill Joe Blow.
We're not allowed to say that we should kill gays.
We're not allowed to be prejudiced.
We're allowed to prejudice prejudice.
"I ridicule their shortcomings, and I disgrace them infront of large groups, which leads to them developing an inferiority complex and scars them for life."
If you're considered worth picking on in the first place, you're probably not important enough in the mind of the agressor to have this much impact on him. I think you overestimate your importance.
Plus, the example of hypocrisy is nice. Seems to be a recurring theme.
"Cuz in real life you can't fight fire with water, you'll just end up getting screwed and you'll lose!"
Lose what?
Lose the chance to be cool? To be the in-crowd? To be so cool, you can pick on other kids? The chance to be yourself?
"Cold shoulders do much more for individuality and character than a quiver full of flaming arrows."
-Jansenn Mirov
"It doesn't, so stop pissing me off with that, please!"
I don't think that was Ritten's intention. It seems you're taking it a little too personally.
"Go to friggin' high school!! EVERYONE is like that, even some of the nerds, they get themselves off thinking they're cool."
Yes. High School is the most dramatic of all situations. And important. And immediate. And inclusive. And unfair. Because life is shit. It doesn't continue past high school. Because High School is the endall/beall of everything. Because it's shit.
Good thing you've got Operation: Lose Virginity before 17. That'll make it less shite.
First: "You. Need. Help."
Nail. Head. Hit.
Once, when I was young I thought Darkstar had problems.
We were soldiers once...and young.
------------------
"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
I do wonder now if the bullies at your school are really that bad, that someone telling you that you are being hypocritical is one of the most damning insults you have ever received.
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Well, whatever argument he's pursuing at the moment. I would also like to thank a lot of other people for being considerate to me and others, this counts for most people with special thanks going to JeffKarde and Nimrod.------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
"His biting sarcasm is the stuff of legends on this ship." -- Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Captain's Quarterly
"He is ... illogical." -- Tuvok, Vulcan Review
"Ultra Magnus has demonstrated a remarkable control of the English language ... for a human." -- Lt. Commander Data, Cybernetics Journal
"I will rip him from head to toe and chew on his intestines!" -- Ambassador Worf, Official Communique to the Federation Council
"He's so cooool!" -- Wesley Crusher, Brats Unlimited
"[He is] Ugly Bag of Mostly Water." -- Unidentified Life Form, Science Log Daily
"If he talks about me like that again, he won't have a hand to type with!" -- Colonel Kira Nerys, Official Communique to Starfleet Command.
"I want him to perform here seven nights a week, and twice on Wednesday! I mean, the latinum I would make selling rotten vegetables for the crowds to throw at him alone...!" -- Quark, Ferengi Profit Report
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 18, 2001).]
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Rodimus Prime: He's an arse.
Springer: I agree with Rodimus. For once. "I can't deal with that now". What the slag was that about. Big baby.
Galvatron: Bwahahahahahahahaha need flesh bwahahahaha.
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Now, if you take great personal offence to comments on a simple UBB, and think I'm a jerk, or whatnot, that's your call. I can be 'unjerkly' and 'unoffensive' and 'unworst verbal attacker ever' if I don't have reason to be.
------------------
"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited April 19, 2001).]
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
------------------
"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
Narf! Poit! Dolph!
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Dexter has actually invented stuff that works. Come on, The Brain's big suit, or Dexter's robot?
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
Besides, the Brain is mature. He's as clever as he's ever going to be. Dexter's, what, 6? Imagine what he'll be like when he's 12! Before the teenage years destroy his brain.
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
But while Dexter has Mandark to keep him sharp, who has the Brain got? Eh?
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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never rub another man's rhubarb! - The Joker
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001