*sigh* So the dance continues.....
Houston - Another student fell victim in April to the escalating campaign for the ethnic cleansing of Dixie. Ryan Zane Oleichi, a 13-year-old student at Labay Middle School outside of Houston, Texas, required hospitalization for the treatment of injuries he received when he was viciously assaulted as he was leaving school. The two perpetrators, a Black and an Hispanic classmate objected to a book that Ryan was carrying home because it had a picture of the Confederate battle flag on the cover. Ryan got the book from the school library for a report that he was doing on Gen. Robert E. Lee.
This outrage is the direct and proximate result of a hostile learning environment created by the administration of the Labay Middle School. Particularly culpable is the Assistant Principal, Ms. Cheryl Morrison.
Back on 19 February, which was a Monday, Ryan's mother Melinda Hill was called to the school. Ms. Morrison met with Ryan's mom to tell her that Ryan was to start 3 days detention as punishment for his wearing of a Confederate flag patch on his shirt. The offending emblem measured all of one inch by one and one-half inches. Overruling the fact that the rulebook only calls for a one-day penalty for infractions of the school dress code, Ryan was to be made an example. You see, Ms. Morrison told Mrs. Hill, "We must make an example of Ryan. He is a racist."
Mrs. Hill was confused by this turn of events. Ryan had worn this shirt several times before without incident. He is proud to wear the Confederate flag because of his love for his Southern Confederate heritage. He is a good student with good grades. He is not a troublemaker nor is he a racist. In fact, he is half Lebanese. Ms. Morrison would only say that an "extreme example" must be made. Ryan would be given three days detention and then forced to apologize publicly to all the Black students for being a "racist."
Thus the Assistant Principal's auto-da-fe set in motion the wheels of persecution that lead to Ryan's beating. Students began verbally abusing Ryan and harassing him. On 20 April events began to escalate. A student, Christina Nelson, walked up and slapped Ryan's face. She then threatened to sic her "posse" on him. "Posse" is generally understood to be a slang term among Blacks that means "a gang."
Then on 26 April, which is Confederate Memorial Day in Texas, Ryan was working on his book report on Confederate General Robert E. Lee in his first period class. He was looking at the book that he had checked out from the school library. A classmate of his, a Black student named Andrew Foster asked, "What's that?" Ryan replied, "It's a book." Andrew then asked, "Why do you have that flag on it?" Ryan responded, "It's the only one in the school library."
At this point an Hispanic student, Leonardo Suarez chimed in, "You racist . . . you racist! I'm gonna kick your a__! I don't know when, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, but I'm gonna kick your a__!"
When leaving the classroom, the Black student, Foster, tripped Ryan then slammed him against the lockers and issued his own threat to kick Ryan's a__. They made good on their threats as soon as school was over. In a sickening display of how diversity is our strength, this multi-ethnic duo caught Ryan outside the school fence. Foster got to Ryan first and began punching him in the face and stomach until Ryan hit the ground. Foster then hollered for Suarez to join him. Foster shouted, "Hey Leonardo, Ryan doesn't like Mexicans, he wants you to go back to Mexico." Suarez ran up and with his steel toed boots and started kicking Ryan in the head as Ryan lay on the ground. Suarez continued "kicking his a__" as he had threatened to do until Ryan lay unconscious at their feet.
At no time did Ryan fight back even though he holds a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Even at the tender age of thirteen, Ryan understands the political landscape of the Political Correctness Empire. He knew that if he were to do anything against this pair he would be painted as the aggressor. Don't forget, he now bore the scarlet "R". He was a racist according to the judgment of an assistant principal and by virtue of his own coerced confession and apology. It was open season. He was to be made an example.
Unfortunately, even his refusal to fight back did not help his cause. The school, when it learned of the "incident", did nothing. The excuse that they used for their do-nothing policy was that the "incident" had occurred out side of the school grounds. In spite of witnesses they declared it was "mutual combat," because Ryan had the audacity to put his hands up to protect his face. The District Attorney was contacted and he has refused to file charges. So far nothing has been done and apparently no official or agency will do anything to bring some justice to this situation.
Ryan subsequently spent three days in the hospital, was treated and released to convalesce at home. When Ryan returned to school he received more verbal abuse and death threats. A particularly odious harpy, a student by the name of Carrie Neumann, made a small career out of shouting loud insults at Ryan every day. She issued veiled threats saying that she was "connected." She sent a package to Ryan's home that his mother is afraid to pick up. This entire outrageous experience is causing a great deal of strain on this single mom and her son. Until they contacted the SLRC, no one that they called would dare lift a finger to help them.
No amount of pleading or protest by Ryan's mother could get the school or district officials to intervene on Ryan's behalf. Assistant Principal Morrison made good on her promise to make an "extreme example" out of Ryan.
What must it be like to be thirteen and to be thrown to these wolves? Ryan learned that Suarez was saying that he was, "not satisfied and won't be until Ryan is dead." One week after he returned to school his mother withdrew him and she will school him at home.
Houston Texas: Heritage Violation Follow Up
By J.J. Johnson 06.05.01
SierraTimes.com [email protected]
Sierra Times has received a number of e-mails inquiring about the student that was viciously beaten for a Confederate Flag on a school library book. This story was picked up by many other news outfits after it was published on Sierra Times.
Many of the feedbacks here were questions about where to send contributions to help out the family or his legal defense. We will answer those questions but first, we need to address another major concern based on much of the correspondence to Sierra Times. Yes, we did follow up on the story as per reader demand.
There were many letters on the same subject Here's one example:
"I was intrigued by this article: http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/jun/02/arnp060201.htm and I'd like to learn more about it. I did several web searches and was not able to find any other links regarding this story. Can you refer me to another source?"
We lost count of how many messages we received asking similar questions. It seems that since folks can't find this story anywhere else, they can't get worked up about it, and Sierra Times should (we guess) quote some newswire or other news source just to make folks believe this actually happened. This is the point where we stop being nice...
Why not ask the Dallas Morning News for "their" sources? How about the Associated Press? How about CNN? Why not ask the Houston Chronicles why they DIDN'T cover the story in the first place?? C'mon - you think with Texas just passing some of the worst 'thought crime' (a.k.a hate crime) legislation in the country, someone might have contacted the local media about this story?
Ladies and Gentlemen, for all intents and purposes - we were the source for the story. Dr. Neill H. Payne wrote it. We just published it. The fact that some of you couldn't find the story anywhere else doesn't mean it didn't happen. Like on the left, when their partisan organizations send out a press release, those fish wraps around the country you read everyday think it's gospel (even though is makes you puke). The same happened here. The Oleichi family is being represented by the Southern Legal Resource Center. Don't blame us if others won't publish non left-wing press releases.
For you folks in Southern Texas who first heard about it all on the Chris Baker Show - (KPRC - AM 950) you heard the left call in making allegations that the victim in the case was a "racist"; hence the beating was justifiable.
Brown shirts on brown skin - I guess.
The attorney handling the matter, Kirk Lyons, was contacted by Sierra Times and will be contacting KPRC, and due to the outrage from the "Official Talk Show of Houston", probably a few more local media affiliates as well. This story now has Houston's attention. But Let's give credit where credit is due.
Not Sierra Times - not even Lyons of the Southern Legal Resource Center - YOU did this folks. Real Americans who choose not to sit on their 'conservatism', speak out, and spread the word. Real Americans who believe there is more to life than the Associated Press. Sierra Times.com is your news service - merely a vehicle to provide news and information that obviously isn't getting out elsewhere. Our best reporters are our readers. There may be thousands of similar stories out there. And today, there is at least one news service willing to take it on.
To put it bluntly folks: It pains the media and other leftists to admin that we're a news service just like them. Should Real American media get that from it's own readers as well? Have we been psychologically beaten that bad that we have to hear from a news source we have no faith in before we believe it?
When our founding fathers wrote the First Amendment, They didn't have the USA Today, and the New York Times in mind. It was We the People - that Fourth Branch of Government given the duty to keep that suspicious eye on government officials.
Welcome to the Digital Revolution, America - where Fabian Socialism may govern the news rooms, and kings and queens controlled information for centuries. That empire is crumbling, one mouse click at a time.
It's something many in the Second Amendment crowd forget - The First Amendment is a First Strike Weapon. That's why they wrote it first.
Carry on,
J.J. Johnson
Contact info for the Ryan Zane Oleichi Case:
Southern Legal Resource Center P.O. Box 1235 Black Mountain, North Carolina 28711. 828-669-5189
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: MIB ]
That is just so awful.
I can't say that my faith in humanity as dropped, exactly, but certainly my faith and respect for certain individuals.
My friend actually attended Labay Middle School. I've been to the neighborhood, and I know that it is not a very... well, it's not a place that is usually subject to that kind of occurrence.
What happened is just another example of how misunderstandings (and unwillingness to listen to others) can lead to violence. While the incident would be considered awful if the persons involved were of any age, I think it is even worse that they were actually quite young. (Approximately 7th graders, I believe.) And no one is born with hate; they have to learn it. It seems to me that several persons could be at fault (namely the parents and especially the administrator), but of course, that does not remove the majority of the blame from the agressors. (If anything, by beating up the alleged racist, they did nothing but prove that they are no better. In fact, they are worse, because even if the student was a racist, he never did anything to them.)
It's hard to retain hope for our society when events like this occur so often. (Even harder when they hit so close to home...)
� TrekkiEternal
"Look at the stars, look how they shine for you, and all the things that you do." -- "Yellow" by Coldplay
I do think the author and his publisher need to soften their anti-Democrat, anti-liberal, anti-media approach.
quote:
favorable to the victim
yes, by all means let's instead bias ourselves in favor of idiots and criminals!
quote:
I do think the author and his publisher need to soften their anti-Democrat, anti-liberal, anti-media approach.
Maybe... but can you show me a single thing that they said that wasn't true?
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
On the other hand, the Confederate flag, and all variations of it, are nothing more than a symbol of a horrible period in American history. It represents a legacy of treason and slave owners. Hey, if you want to associate yourself with treason and slave owners, be my guest, wear it, fly the flag, whatever you want to. You've got that right to do that -- it's called the First Ammendment.
But you're still identifying yourself with slave-owners and traitors. No thanks.
By the 1860's, slavery was well on its way to extinction, with the advent of modern industrial methods and the popularity of abolitionist movements. The southern states seceded not because of slavery, but because of other economic factors (train tracks leading everywhere but the south, national reliance on foreign agriculture, etc.). In short, the Confederacy was formed because the parties involved believed that the central government was not representing their economic interests, in the same manner that the American colonies seceded from Britain barely a century before.
Yeah, I'll buy that.
SC seceded because they feared that the new president was going to use Federal authority to abolish slavery.
Revisionist.
quote:
Would have been nice to hear the other side of the story.
You DID. In the resounding and utter SILENCE of the 'mainstream' media before the 'paranoid conservatives' brought the story to light.
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
I should also note that, as Shik alluded to above, the US relied on slavery for its economic infrastructure since its inception, as had many of history's most powerful nations. It wasn't until the Civil War that it had declined as an institution enough to make a convenient scapegoat for the United Empire of America to use in continuing to justify its existence.
Why do you think slavery existed in the first place? Because all those evil southerners, who happened to oppose Emperor Lincoln (the tyrant alluded to in the Maryland state song!), hated black people? It didn't matter who the slaves were; their monoracial composition was just an unfortunate result of historical factors. Ultimately, slaves were a component of the southern economy, a component that was soon to be eliminated by social and technological factors.
Again, the true reason the Confederacy is so extremely villified is that the notion that such a large group wouldn't want to be part of the US is intolerable to existing national dogma.
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Americana ]
That said, I don't agree that violence was warranted. The people who did it should be punished. But, the "victim" shouldn't be compensated, in my opinion. It was his own fault.
So it's not as if the issue just "suddenly" cropped up as a convenient excuse for the Civil War. It had existed for over a century, with the squabbles in 1820 and 1850 being only the high points.
Unfortunately, the South liked the status quo very much and was reluctant to seek other means of supporting their economy, (the fact that the thought of freeing the blacks scared them very much notwithstanding) and to avoid conflict, the North just kept on appeasing them, until the pot finally boiled over.
It's got the flag of China. Do I support the Chinese government?
It's got the flag of Canada. Does that make me um... a hockey player?
It's got the flag of the UK. Do I eat tea and crumpets?
It's got the flag of France. Am I rude and pushy and eat snails?
It's got a LOT of flags, and the US one isn't drawn right. Am I a globalist UN US-hater?
NO.
I've got a tie with flags on it, that's all. My girlfriend got it for me for christmas. The proceeds go to the "Save the Children" charity.
A symbol is what you make of it, whether it's a Black Madonna or a 'Piss Christ' (Mapplethorpe.)
The kid wore ONE TINY (an inch ain't big) symbol on a shirt. Big frickin' DEAL. He couldn't HELP what flag was on the book cover. You aren't likely to see any OTHER symbol on a book about Robert E. Lee.
The original Confederate flag, the "Stars & Bars" had a canton of blue in the upper left containing a rign of 7 (later 13) stars. This was in conjuction with 3 stripes in the order of red-white-red.
The Army of Northern Virginia under the command of Robert E. Lee used as its regimental flag the popular design seen today (& on the "General Lee"), except that it was square instead of rectangular & had a white border surrounding it. This was quickly adopted as a general-use battle flag in 1861 & came to be known as the "Southern Cross" or the "Flag of the South."
In 1863, the Southern Cross was placed in the canton of a white flag to create a new national flag, the "Stainless Banner." In 1865, a vertical red stip was added to this design.
Correct. So why is it unreasonable to assume that slavery would have disappeared without the aggression of the national government?
First, I'd like to say that the original story is inaccurate about the penalties for violations of dress code. This is taken directly from the CFISD Student Handbook and Code of Conduct:
quote:
Students who come to school in violation of the district and/or campus dress code will have the option of correcting the violation or being placed in DMC or in-school suspension for the remainder of the day. School officials may use other appropriate consequences as designated in the Code of Conduct. Parents may be asked to bring appropriate attire to school to assist in correcting the violation. Students who have a question about the appropriateness of an item should discuss the specific issue with the appropriate staff member before wearing the item.
School administrators, by this, are given the option of assigning additional punishment for dress code violations within reason. Dress code violations are considered Level I offenses, of which the maximum penalty assigned to them is either one-day of DMC or up to 3 days of after-school detention. The article is inaccurate in saying that this was not in compliance with district guidelines.
Next, we have the issue of why the assailants were not suspended. As per Texas law and CFISD policy, any and all students arrested for a crime or charged with a crime will be immediately suspended from school and reassigned to the Alternative Learning Center until such time as the issue is resolved. This article does not tell us if the students were arrested or charged. If they were, the school would be forced to act on it. If they were not, the school cannot legality seek disciplinary action against any student for an event not occuring during a school-sponsored activity or on school property.
Third, the Harris County District Attorney is a man by the name of Chuck Rosenthal. He has proven himself to be very active in pursuing justice for all victims of any crimes in his tenure as DA and during his extensive time at the Assistant DA. Mr. Rosenthal is not one to let himself to let "popular opinion" stand in the way of following the word of law. If he did not follow through on this incident, I must conclude that there is something missing from the article.
Now, for the conclusion of my post (you must all be thinking "thank god" by now). I do not think that the entire story is being reported here. I'm not denying that it didn't happen because I do not know for sure. I do know that this got no mention in any of the news stations or in the newspaper if it did happen, which is want the article says. However, from experience, if something like this had happened the local media would have been all over it. In late April, Cypress Creek High School was all over the local media for suspending a student from classes for wearing a shirt with the Confederate flag emblazzened on it. This particular incident is still undergoing review and investigation.
If anyone here wants anymore information, drop me a private message. I don't like coming to the Flameboard too often (because some of you people really scare me in here), so I'm probably not going to be checking this thread (because some of you people really scare me in here!). 
quote:
The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.
George Washington's farewell address, 1796
quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
The fact of the matter is that the Confederate flag has been adopted as a symbol for racist groups. Certainly, that's not all the CSA stood for, but still... If someone went around wearing a black, diagonal, clockwise swastika in a white circle, surrounded by red, but claimed to be not racist, but just proud of their National Socialist heritage, that's fine. They're welcome to it. But I won't have any sympathy for them if a bunch of Jews beat the crap out of them.That said, I don't agree that violence was warranted. The people who did it should be punished. But, the "victim" shouldn't be compensated, in my opinion. It was his own fault.
[QUOTE]Back on 19 February, which was a Monday, Ryan's mother Melinda Hill was called to the school. Ms. Morrison met with Ryan's mom to tell her that Ryan was to start 3 days detention as punishment for his wearing of a Confederate flag patch on his shirt. The offending emblem measured all of one inch by one and one-half inches. Overruling the fact that the rulebook only calls for a one-day penalty for infractions of the school dress code, Ryan was to be made an example. You see, Ms. Morrison told Mrs. Hill, "We must make an example of Ryan. He is a racist."
Mrs. Hill was confused by this turn of events. Ryan had worn this shirt several times before without incident. He is proud to wear the Confederate flag because of his love for his Southern Confederate heritage. He is a good student with good grades. He is not a troublemaker nor is he a racist. In fact, he is half Lebanese. Ms. Morrison would only say that an "extreme example" must be made. Ryan would be given three days detention and then forced to apologize publicly to all the Black students for being a "racist." [END QUOTE]
Was it also his HIS fault that the fucking idiot currently known as Ms. Morrison FORCED this kid to speak to all of the black students in the school and pubically anounce that he is racist? Was it HIS fault that that Ms. Morrison made him a target for violence by forcing him to do that? HELL NO!!! He made a mistake by not following the dress code. ok fine. Ms. Morrison sould have just givin him his 3 days detention and be done with it. But to force him to tell the entire school that he is racist and a bigot is.....is.....I can't even think of a word to discribe it! IMO that school SHOULD be held responsible for the beatings and the death threats! And Ms. Morrison SHOULD be subjected to a VERY harsh judgment evaluation! PERIOD!
May I ask. If you were still in middle school and if you did something to earn a few days detention. Would you enjoy it if your teacher then forced you to announce to the entire school that you were a Nazi or a member of the KKK? No? I wouldn't either. He didn't deserve that.
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: MIB ]
Wow. The ironies of life.
MIB -- the teacher's actions were WAY out of line. She pretty much took some paint paintbrush and painted a big, red, bullseye on his back. The boy's parents could probably get her fired, if they want.
On the other hand, if you wear or display a Confederate flag, are you REALLY surprised when you get the tar kicked out of you? I've got one on my Jeep (a bumpersticker), but it's crossed over with a red "x" and the caption reads "You Lost, Get Over It."
First -- if your tie had a Nazi Swastika on it, would you be surprised if people considered you a Nazi? Just wondering.
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Kardde ]
Thus indicating that the modern political parties have little actual meaning.
BTW, as many of us know, the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck and well-being centuries before the Nazis.
I have a jersey from the Macedonian national soccer team, it clearly has the Macedonian crest, the gold lion on a yellow background emblazed in the front. If any albanian people are offended and choose to call me a racist....... I don't give a shit!!!!! They can do what they please and so can the school, I will not take it off for them!! I will buy another 6 and wear it every day of the week, they can suspend me all they please!!
A flag means NOTHING, a crest means NOTHING! What you SAY and DO means EVERYTHING!!
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Isn't Infinity *G* ]
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Isn't Infinity *G* ]
In all honesty I'm really not sure. IMO if a simple emblem coaxed those kids or anyone for that matter into extreme violence they really should get a psychological evaluation. I currently live in Georgia. If I went out and put somebody in the hospital every time I saw the Confederate battle flag my crime record would be so long it would take a month to read.
IMO, if all anyone can think about is how racist the Confederate battle flag is, they need to get a life. AND FAST!! To go out and beat the shit out of someone for reading a book that had the battle emblem on the cover; He/She needs to get help. AND FAST!!
I really don't care how racist the battle flag is precieved to be by anyone. (I personnally don't give a rats ass about it) Using this as an excuse for death threats and, later, putting someone in the hospital is wrong. The fact that the victem was reading a book that had the confederate emblem on it or anything similar to that is insignificant.
Like Isn't infinity said: A flag means NOTHING, a crest means NOTHING! What you SAY and DO means EVERYTHING!!
"I've got a tie I wear to work. It's got flags on it.
"It's got the flag of China. Do I support the Chinese government?
"It's got the flag of Canada. Does that make me um... a hockey player?
"It's got the flag of the UK. Do I eat tea and crumpets?
"It's got the flag of France. Am I rude and pushy and eat snails?
"It's got a LOT of flags, and the US one isn't drawn right. Am I a globalist UN US-hater?"
It has many flags on it. Thus, it's merely a display of divers flags. There's a big difference between wearing an amalgam of random flags, and wearing just one specific flag, especially one w/ the generally-recognized overtones that that one has.
"Was it also his HIS fault that the fucking idiot currently known as Ms. Morrison FORCED this kid to speak to all of the black students in the school and pubically anounce that he is racist?"
Perhaps you find this unwarranted, but I'm going to assume this Morrison character didn't threaten the kid w/ bodily harm if he didn't make that "announcement". Therefore, yes, it is his fault. The simple response would have been "I'm not a racist, so I'm not going to do that.". Possibly w/ a "Now kindly go and fuck yourself." added in for good measure. The article says the kid's mother was informed of all this right away, and the "confession" wasn't to take place until three days later. If nothing else, she should have told the kid not to do it.
"But to force him to tell the entire school that he is racist and a bigot is.....is.....I can't even think of a word to discribe it!"
Incompetence? Lunacy? Inappropriate retribution?
Sure, the woman's a complete fuckwit. But, just because she's wrong, that doesn't make the kid right. It's entirely possible for two people to be at odds w/ each other, but both be wrong. "The sky appears red" vs. "the sky appears yellow" when the sky actually appears blue, for example.
"If you were still in middle school and if you did something to earn a few days detention. Would you enjoy it if your teacher then forced you to announce to the entire school that you were a Nazi or a member of the KKK?"
Certainly not. That's why I wouldn't do it.
"I have a jersey from the Macedonian national soccer team, it clearly has the Macedonian crest, the gold lion on a yellow background emblazed in the front. If any albanian people are offended and choose to call me a racist....... I don't give a shit!!!!! They can do what they please and so can the school, I will not take it off for them!! I will buy another 6 and wear it every day of the week, they can suspend me all they please!!"
Personally, I have no idea how Albanians in general feel about symbols of Macedonia. Honestly, I was under the impression that Macedonia was a rather inconsequential country that merely gained independence from Yugoslavia because everyone else was doing the same, and that no-one really pays attention to them. But I could easily be misinformed.
Anyway, if a good majority of Albanians find that particular symbol offensive, and you knowingly walk into a group of such Albanians, wearing it, and they interpret it as a racist symbol and beat the shit out of you, do you think my response should be "Wow, what a guy! He let those people kick his ass, and he didn't even care..."? It wouldn't. My response would be "Wow, what an idiot! He was just asking for that to happen...".
"I really don't care how racist the battle flag is precieved to be by anyone. (I personnally don't give a rats ass about it) Using this as an excuse for death threats and, later, putting someone in the hospital is wrong. The fact that the victem was reading a book that had the confederate emblem on it or anything similar to that is insignificant."
If he had merely been some random guy reading a book w/ Confederate signage on the front, I doubt anyone would have bothered him. But, this was a guy who had been wearing the same symbol a few days before, and who had publicly admitted being a racist (how would the other students know whether he had been "coerced" or not?). So, as far as the "attackers" knew, they were faced w/ a guy who was a self-avowed racist and proud of it. They shouldn't have beat him up, of course, but, nevertheless, is it that surprising?
quote:
Perhaps you find this unwarranted, but I'm going to assume this Morrison character didn't threaten the kid w/ bodily harm if he didn't make that "announcement". Therefore, yes, it is his fault. The simple response would have been "I'm not a racist, so I'm not going to do that.". Possibly w/ a "Now kindly go and fuck yourself." added in for good measure. The article says the kid's mother was informed of all this right away, and the "confession" wasn't to take place until three days later. If nothing else, she should have told the kid not to do it."
Yeah, just TRY saying that to a teacher/adminstrator (ESPECIALLY adminsitrator) and see how long you last. You'll be expelled so fast it'll make your head spin.. and they'll TELL everyone you're a racist anyway. And if the mother had prevented him, it would have gone down the same way.
quote:
But, just because she's wrong, that doesn't make the kid right.
Yes, but she's an ADULT. She's supposed to know better.
quote:
My response would be "Wow, what an idiot! He was just asking for that to happen..."
I reject this argument in all its forms because of its 'blame the victim' connotations. As sentient beings, we are responsible for our own actions, despite all provocation to the contrary. Those kids were not FORCED to attack that other kid, nor is there any indication that they were 'compelled' to do it. They simply felt like doing it, and neglected to bother to show a little self-discipline.
"Asking for it" does not exist in anything less than the form of direct action. To believe otherwise is to leave the door open to accepting "she was asking for it" when a woman wearing a slinky dress is raped.
Outrageous outfit = assault as a justifiable response? NO, I don't think so.
"Yeah, just TRY saying that to a teacher/adminstrator (ESPECIALLY adminsitrator) and see how long you last. You'll be expelled so fast it'll make your head spin.. and they'll TELL everyone you're a racist anyway. And if the mother had prevented him, it would have gone down the same way."
That's true. What's your point?
"I reject this argument in all its forms because of its 'blame the victim' connotations. As sentient beings, we are responsible for our own actions, despite all provocation to the contrary. Those kids were not FORCED to attack that other kid, nor is there any indication that they were 'compelled' to do it. They simply felt like doing it, and neglected to bother to show a little self-discipline."'Asking for it' does not exist in anything less than the form of direct action. To believe otherwise is to leave the door open to accepting 'she was asking for it' when a woman wearing a slinky dress is raped."
Obviously, you haven't listened to anything I've said, so I'm not even going to dignify this w/ an arguement.
A request to the student to not wear the offending item of clothing was good enough. (heck, I don't really think that article was offensive in the first place. Not like he wore a shirt saying "BLACKS MUST DIE" or anything like that.) Not the "punishment by example" he received.
So I am a very liberal ultra-left loony. Sue me.
[ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: Tahna Los ]
Asking for it as far as I'm concerned is if he attacked those two kids first....
Infinity, you deserve at least an hours applause for that remark. Thank you for hitting the the hammer on the nail so nicely.
If you march with a swastika flag, it's kind of obvious you're supporting what Nazi Germany stood for.
"The anger of the perpetrators in NO WAY excuses or justifies their actions."
Again, that's true. What's your point?
You have a funny way of arguing, agreeing w/ me all the time...
"Thank you for hitting the the hammer on the nail so nicely."
What exactly does that mean? Is it like "hitting the nail on the head", or different?
"If you march with a swastika flag, it's kind of obvious you're supporting what Nazi Germany stood for.""Unless you're not, because, as I mentioned, the Nazi use of the symbol is predated by its incorporation in many Asian cultures as a positive icon."
Some Native American cultures, too, I believe. As a matter of fact, when I visited Washington, DC, there were some seats in the Senate for people to sit and watch what was going on (nothing was at the time), and the upholstery had a swastika-based pattern.
However, if you marched around w/ a red flag that has a white circle in the center containing a black, diagonal, clockwise swastika, it would seem obvious that it's intended as a Nazi symbol. If you don't intend it that way, you're an idiot for using it...
*ahem*
Not that I've ever studied the period or anything, but I'll be derned if there doesn't seem to be some interesting reading of mid 1800's history.
Not the least of which is:
quote:
Correct. So why is it unreasonable to assume that slavery would have disappeared without the aggression of the national government?
So we conclude that the anti-slavery societies that were less than very popular were going to whipe out the institution all by their lonesome?
Fascinating.
Ever hear of John Brown?
There was, simply put, one way that the slave holders would give up their "property" and that was compensation. The government had no legal right to end slavery until the Constitution was amended. With compensation comes a few important sub-items. How much are the slaves worth as prooerty, who is going to pay, where would the former slaves go (goodness knows they didn't want them to stay here), and how long would the process take (some estimates were for it to end around 1900 or so).
To say that slavery was on it's way out simply because of the industrial movement is specious and does not take into account the institutional nature of slavery in the south and the leaching systemic way it attached itself to the "peculiar" nature of the south in particular. Slavery was on its way out in 1860 the same was Hitler was on his way out in 1937 or the same way that any human institution is transitory. In as much as it was protected by law, culture and sociatal beliefs, in 1860, it was far from done with.
The question about slavery, as such was discussed by those against the institution and not an abolitionist** in the 1850's came in the form of the expansion of the institution into Federal territories. Lincoln opposed that expansion (read his speech of 26 June 1857 here. It turned out to be a rather big question...Bleeding Kansas, Dred Scott and all.
But it is incorrect to fall into the neo-Confederate trap of 'slavery didn't count for anything' as a cause of the war or that slavery was dying. Both aren't true.
Argue on about the Confederate flag all you want. However, bear in mind when the "battle flag" was added to various southern state flags and symbols.
**abolitionists were for the immediate and non-compensated ending of slavery...Lincoln was not an abolitionist.
[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
And, frankly, similar with the Confederate flag. It's an emblem of racism and treason.
[QUOTE FROM TSN]Thank you for hitting the the hammer on the nail so nicely."
What exactly does that mean? Is it like "hitting the nail on the head", or different? [END QUOTE]
Dude. I think you know exactly what he meant. Stop trying to make people look like idiots.
But it does not justify what those kids did.
The article states that he was never a racist. Yet he was made to look like one. And he never wore a shirt that stated "Blacks must die". If he did, then, yes, he may have been "Asking for it". But it STILL doesn't make those kids any less liable for the beating.
So fine. Let's get rid of the Confederate Flag because it is a symbol of slavery. While we're at it, let's get rid of the Japanese flag because it is a symbol of savagery inflicted by the Japanese during WWII. Let's get rid of the Chinese flag because it is a symbol of oppression and the Tiennamen Massacre. And gosh darn it, let's get rid of the Canadian Flag because it is a symbol of annoyance to the American people (damn Canadians).
The Only exception is the Nazi Flag. Reason being is that it was the brainchild of the Party itself. The Confederate flag was the brainchild of the colonists living in North America long before the Civil War, and to what I have heard, long before the US existed. I don't think that the Confederate Flag was intended to represent slavery.
And yes, I do understand how the Blacks feel about the flag. It will take time for all the pain inflicted in the past 300 years to subside.
[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Tahna Los ]
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that anyone sporting any item of clothing etc. of the 1933-45 Germanic period is a fervent National Socialist. My History class at school got our teacher a Wehrmacht officer's peaked hat as a leaving present. Does that mean any of us are or were Nazis? No - It means we had a sense of humour.