I have a friend who is adamantly convinced (for whatever reason) that one must have a formal college degree to be successful. No I don't mean millionaire, successful, just well-off for somebody with little or no formal degree. When I asked her why she thought this was, I met responses like "its all employers look for" and "its just the way it is.
I tried to tell her that if your education was the only thing that mattered then hiring for a job would be very cut and dry, and the other stuff wouldn't need to be there.
When I suggested asking for an unpaid internship somewhere or volunteer work to boost her character record, she dismissed it with comments such as "volunteer work doesn't pay the bills" and "you don't get paid." Keep in mind she lives at home and has a trust fund that pays for her entire lifestyle.
After many a banging my head on the keyboard I managed to type "*LOL*" with my forhead accidentally.
Why oh why is it hard to logically expain things to people and when they make a claim and I ask them to back it up they say that "its just the way it is..." and "This guy I know got this cool job and he had no education and he just got a break [...]"??
I've given up on people, I swear. They don't act logically, expect everything they hear to be true, and when I find a hole in his or her reasoning he or she gets defensive and say I suck and I'm wrong and their whole reality is crumbling because it doesn't make sense to switch to poultry instead of red meat because red meat is healthier and damn the statistical data and FDA reports and such.
*groan* You should ignore this thread. It sucks, much like my sucky logic-debate skills. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, listen, tell your friend she can give me her cozy trust fund and I'll give her a degree ...
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Having had the job of interviewing & hiring people myself, I can wholeheartedly say this: I never once gave a rat's ass where the person went to college (unless of course, it was Harvard or Yale, but I didn't see too many of those...). it was the EXPERIENCE I was looking at, not education background. To that effect, an internship would probably be the BEST thing any college student could do. Yes, it's unpaid, but it will only help you in the long run. Unfortunately, like your friend, most people can't or won't plan for the long run, & can only see the immediate.
Hope this helps.
[ January 31, 2002, 09:35: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I used to be a personnel manager.. and i never once hired a graduate... of course, personnel manager is one of the many duties of the Assistant Store Manager of a McDonald's
Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :
No offense, but I honestly can't say that I agree with any of you on this topic because as far as I know, none of the people here are high enough in the management level that belong to a well-known major corporation.
Sure, for some of the job, secondary education is not require, but if we talking about a decent white collar professional in a well-establised company with upper-middle class income of $30000 a year and above with employee benefits, then yeah, a university degree in the related field is definately required.
Also, I'm senseing some mis-guided ideas here about job experiences. Sure, experiences are important, but it is the QUALITY that makes it important, not QUANTITY, and I don't think a person can get a respectable high quality job experiences without an secondary education. To have a well established job experiences on your resume, secondary education is a must for the income level that I described.
No matter what society might want to believe, people do judge others by their covers, and employers judge employees by experience (which is based on education as I mentioned above) and education, it only get worst when you get to higher level, it's just a fact of life.
[ January 31, 2002, 18:18: Message edited by: BlueElectron ]
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Yes, that's true. Even if you have loads of experience, education gives an employer some idea of how well you can handle new or varied experience. Because no job's ever just the same as the one you had before.
Continuing education is important, too.
But as for the scoffed-at charity work/extraneous stuff... if it comes down to two identically-qualified employees (and it often does), they DO look at things like that.
Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :
I agree with Fo2 on that. Volunteer work is very important, not only because it makes your resume looks great, but also because it makes our society just that little bit better.
Continuing education is a must, because people fresh out into the job force will definately be more "resourceful" because they are in touch with the new technologies or skills in the field of your profession, plus, they probably cost a lot less than you (salary wise), so if a person does not continue his education, he will be replaced and out of job.
Also co-op or internship is a mile-stone for any "newbies" such as myself, by my university offer full salary with it, so I guess that's a bonus for me ^.^
Posted by Lost (Member # 417) on :
Take Rent-A-Center for example....
Account Managers (nothing realy mangerial) get $27,000.00 a year Assistant Managers get about $36,000.00 Managers get like $44,000.00
The stress sucks though, and you are getting pressured from the renters and from up above.... life expectancy, er job, is short, like 2 years once you make manager....
Education required, 1 High School Diploma. also 3 short tests, on general test to get a pay raise from the $27,000.00 one to get to assistant manager and 1 monre to get a store....
RAC isn't a rinky-dink out fit, heck, it ownes part of Colortyme, Rentway is large also, and they did a mini Enron, inflating numbers, busted by SEC, and all.....
So there is places out there that will pay a few pretty pennies to you, but you have to bust your ass to get it, and deal with some heavy duty stress.... Not worth it to me....
My friend works for Concentric/XO as a router tech, he makes almost $50,000.00 a year in Saginaw, easy boring job, no challenge, his high school diploma and his A cert. is all he has.
2 examples with out your Harvard degrees, although with continuing ed.
Posted by The Antagonist (Member # 484) on :
Exactly my point that I was trying to make to her, Ritten.
Let me provide another.
My parents both started working right out of high school (my father far before high school even). Both of whom make more than enough money to live comfortabley. The issue is that niether had to go to secondary school to get ahead in life.
Now this friend of mine, and actually many of my friends, think that a degree is like a mgaic wand of sorts. You can work up to most well-paid positions, no? And has society become so demanding in 30 some years that you have to land a college degree just to get an interview? Personal and societal enrishment aside, skills can belearned in any manner of ways, whether it be on the job or in a classroom.
But anyhow, thank you for your input guys. I guess this thread was sort of a mix between a bitch/rant and a request for opinions. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Since you do seem to be describing the sort of person who, in polite terms would have "had a fairly easy life", and in not-so-polite terms would have been "spoiled rotten and have no idea of the real world", you are going to fight a losing battle. I have to put up living with a uni housemate who insists he has no money for anything, despite have over �1000 in the bank, despite him receiving �100 a month from his parents, and despite him not having to pay tuition fees or anything. If he spends �30 on a night out, he'll spend hours telling me how upset his parents will be, while I, with my �1000 overdraft have to listen to it. And if you try saying "you're a rich bastard, you, er, bastard", he won't listen.
There are some people who'll listen to others, aware that they have experience in areas that they don't. And there are others who'll only hear what they want to hear. They won't change. Unless you tie them down or something.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Although there is some merit in experience/voluteer experience....afterall, thats why I'm enrolled in a university co-op program... methinks that certain professional occupations might not be too easy or even possible to "work up to." I mean, you definitely won't be a doctor, or engineer, or architect, etc without a post secondary education.....at least not legally... And while a professional degree won't guarantee a well-paying job, you certainly increase your chances, and I'm not all that sure as to what you lose out on. Going out into the workplace immediately after high school isn't exactly the most fun in the world.
Also, a side note of interest (in Canada): secondary education == high school, post-secondary == university/college
[ February 01, 2002, 10:06: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
My boss at Papa John's has one semester of college under his belt.
But he's worked his way up through the pizza ranks from "insider" to "store manager." He's making $45,000 a year including his bonuses. Of course, it helps that he's at one of the busiest stores in the region (his bonuses are about $1,000 a month -- other store managers make a lot less, the guy at Towson makes double Wayne's bonuses). He's constantly been offered promotion to Supervisor (and I wish he would take it because he's a real asshole fuck), which pays about the same, but is an important step to being a District Manager, which pays a significant amount more then he makes now. From there on up, he's in Corporate and making the really big cash.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: . . . the guy at Towson makes double Wayne's bonuses). He's constantly been offered promotion to Supervisor (and I wish he would take it because he's a real asshole fuck), which pays about the same, but is an important step to being a District Manager, which pays a significant amount more then he makes now. From there on up, he's in Corporate and making the really big cash.
But if he's that bad, do you really want him out of your hair and higher up the authority ladder making shit decisions?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
He's just an asshole to people. And if he were out of my hair, I might get my hours back. Plus, he'd probably be transfered to another region.
So ... yes! Posted by Lost (Member # 417) on :
Snay, thank you, I forgot the bonuses....... for the Rent-To-Own employees.... jumps everyone up at least $3,000.00 per month....
In this area degrees don't mean much....
unless you are an architect, engineer, or some such thing.....
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
no offense snay, but i've worked papa john's, and only have bad things to say for it. cocksuckers.
I thinks you should get as much blackmail material on this wanna-be corporate and turn him in to your personal bitch for being such a bastard.
not that I have a grudge against the company, or anything.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
That's all that I have to say about that!
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
just so you know I'm not totally serious: Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
It's okay. Were your problems with the company (if you were serious about that) with local management at the store/supervisor level, or corporate level?
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by thoughtcriminal84: just so you know I'm not totally serious:
PHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW!!!!!!
HEHE!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I had a job once where I had to do the whole hire/train/review/discipline/rehabilitate/fire employees thing. I never once looked at the education backgrounds of any of the candidates. Of course, I was just the desk manager for my school big residence tower complex. Not going to see too many degree-holding people applying for a minimum-wage job working the front desk of a dorm.
Now, I do behind-the-scenes work for an IT staffing company. I can tell you that it really depends on the hiring manager and the pool of candidates for the specific position. For instance, I've seen people get hired at the "big" corporations (including Enron) who don't have a degree. These hiring managers wanted experience, and the applicant pool wasn't too big. On the flip-side, I have seen instances of hiring managers wanted a specific degree or certification and refused to see anyone who didn't have it.
In short: it varies. All things being equal, a degree won't necessarily help you, but it certainly won't hurt you either.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
To make a long story short, my grudge with papa john's is probably limited to the Local store management level...
I had a minor dispute with the manager one fine day over some of P.J.'s fine buisness practices. Essentially, I wasn't saying "Driver In" or "Driver Out" when I entered or left the building as loudly as he wanted.
This, of course, is not a big deal, and it wasn't a problem at first. I made the effort to say those silly things louder. But then other things started to pop up. Like for example, I forget to wear the hat inside, leaving in my car.
Again, not a big deal. I understand it's company policy, hey, I'm mature.
But the bitch out I received for it was not proportional to the size of my mistake. I shrugged it off, thinking, hey, he's an asshole, so what, I made seventy bucks in tips tonight.
The next day, I'm making the pizza. And lo and behold, I made a pizza that was not "eight". You know what that means? There's a little sign in (I believe) all Papa John's that says "If it's not eight, WE REMAKE!". It means that each and every single pizza has to be exactly eight slices big.
Mine was not. It was six. AGAIN, not a big deal.
This bastard chewed me out over a pie that costs maybe two bucks to make, and then tried to make me pay full price for it, because "I screwed the pooch." At the time, this was ten bucks.
I had been working there for four months when this happened, and this sort of evil shit had never occurred before.
My reaction was rather subdued at first. But you see, this particular man was using the policies of Papa John's in order to fulfill some kind of sick Control Fantasy. I didn't realize that until he threatened to fire me unless I paid for it.
I remember thinking things like "What?" and "Huh?"...
Now I swear. I've had some shit jobs. I worked at an IBP, if that tells you anything. But never, and I mean never, have I gotten so much grief over so minor a thing.
So when I was fired for not paying for that pie, I went and talked to other Papa John's people in town (we have four stores here) and amazingly, many of them told me that they had seen similar happen more often than not.
I wrote several letters to the Better Buisness Bureau, and sent a couple off to papa john's regional offices, but I never even got a "Sorry, guy, our managers are all on crack."
so I dislike them. I think it's funny now, but I can hardly explain how pissed I was at the time.
I'll never eat one of their perfect eight slice pizzas again.
And yes, I realize I probably sound like an insane person ranting, so I'll shut up.
Posted by Constellation of One (Member # 332) on :
Take it from a high school teacher, you don't need a four year college degree to be a success in life. Being an honest, hard worker is success enough. But...
If someone doesn't attend college, at least a junior college for a certification or a trade school for vocational training, then they should be prepared for a LOT of low paying jobs, for a long time. Um, would you like fries with that?
Robert
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Er.. how can a pizza NOT be eight slices big? You cut it in quarters, then you cut the quarters in half!
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, 10" get cut in six slices, 16" get 10 slices. And you try cutting a perfect pie during Friday night dinner rush ...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I always cut them into 6's. Cut it in half, and then cut two thirds.
God, this is boring.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
yep.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Don't you ever wish you could just bitch out at someone? I mean just go ape-shit on some stupid moron. I once saw this old bat at the counter in a Tim Hortons go nutz because she thought her coffee was to hot for her to hold. Most people would hav asked for a second cup to put the first in. But she told them that she wanted her money back, AND to have another COOLER cup of coffee givin to her for free. The person at the till told her that they don't do refunds on interac, but they would give her another cup. while the till worker was getting that she began swearing at her because she was "too slow". At about this time I was walking past her to get out the door, when she started yelling again. so I told her to "shut the F*CK up, you whiny old bitch". and walked out the door. She stared at me for at least 5 minutes as I walked back to school. I wish I could see her wrinkly old face again. she was so shocked she drooled in her coffee.
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