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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BlueElectron</b> <br /><small>Member # 281</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,14,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:42 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> This was the last sermon delivered by the prophet Muhammad on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijah 10 A.H. in the "Uranah valley of Mount Arafat" (in Mecca).<br /><br /><i>After praising, and thanking Allah he said:</i><br /><br /><b>"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.<br /><br />O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.<br /><br />O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your waves only under Allah's trust and with His permision. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.<br /><br />O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.<br /><br />All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.<br /><br />O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behinds me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.<br /><br />All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people." </b><br /> <br /> <small>[ February 26, 2002, 15:59: Message edited by: BlueElectron ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,15,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Islam<i>ism</i>? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>BlueElectron</b> <br /><small>Member # 281</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,15,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:59 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yeah, what's wrong with that?<br /><br />Stop trying to pick a bone out of an egg! <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Tahna Los</b> <br /><small>Member # 33</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,16,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:02 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I just did. And boy was it tasty.<br /><br />Got any other eggs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The_Tom</b> <br /><small>Member # 38</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,16,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Actually, Islamism is a commonly-used term to describe the particularly nasty form of allegedly Islam-based totalitarianism. Y'know, Osama and the Taliban and overthrowing the Saudi Royal Family or Mubarrak's regime in Egypt and stuff. Killing the infidel dogs. Clearly different from what Mohammed was teaching in the above little bit. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Vogon Poet</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,1,26,16,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 26, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:55 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The parallels to the Sermon on the Mount are intriguing. Well posted, that sub-atomic particle! 8) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Grokca</b> <br /><small>Member # 722</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,1,8,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:50 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> BE you should send that little piece to Jerry Falwell, saw him on Crossfire the other night proclaiming that Islam is a violence religion and should be wiped off the planet. What an a$$ that guy is.<br />He is unfortunately well politically connected and his voice does sway some. He fails to understand that his form of christianity is just as destructive as the destructive forms of Islam are. It is not usually the teaching in these books that is the problem but those who think that their way is the only way and all others should persecuted. The, either your with us or against us, argument. <br />This a$$ also said after Sept. 11 that it was god's retribution an america for allowing gays, other religions, abortions to flourous in the US.<br /><br />I can't beleive that anyone ever takes this guy seriously, but there are moslems also spouting this kind of crap and they are also taken seriously.<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 01, 2002, 08:51: Message edited by: Grokca ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Antagonist</b> <br /><small>Member # 484</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,1,14,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:52 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You know I daydreamed (in history class as a matter of fact, after a night of drinking, no sleep, and suffering from a mild fever that I treated with a hardy dose of nyquil) the reactions that certain important historical figures would have if I built a time machine and brought them into the present to see the result of their actions and how horrified (or pleased) they may be after seeing it.<br /><br />The results:<br />Stalin really was a nice guy, and Jesus had an annoying twitch. Oh, and Moses preferred MGD over Bud Light. Now that's kosher... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,1,19,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I have to say, the whole "everyone is equal�as long as they're Muslim�and men are more equal than women" bit is a little irritating. I'm going to have to give points to Chritianity over Islam in that Isho' at least got the generic equality thing more right.<br /><br /><blockquote>"And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, <b>as well as never to be unchaste</b>." [emphasis added]</blockquote><br />So, then, where do all the little Muslets come from? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,1,23,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 01, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, Islam, like Judaism, considers sex in and of itself (within the prescribed limits of marraige) to be a Good Thing.<br /><br />And Christianity is hardly free from an equal-but-not-quite division between men and women.<br /><br />"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."<br />--<br />1 Corinthians 14:34<br /><br />"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."<br />--<br />1 Corinthians 11:3<br /><br />"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."<br />--<br />1 Timothy 2:12<br /><br />It's a bit harder to do searches on the Qu'ran, both because of the language issues and the fact that much of Islam is based on emulating the Prophet's actions, as well as his words. Suffice it to say, like Christianity, Islam contains a pretty clear hierarcy of the genders, with men firmly on top.<br /><br />"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."<br />--<br />The Women<br />Sura...er...I'm not sure. Anyway. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The_Tom</b> <br /><small>Member # 38</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,1,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:21 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> A decent point, Simon, though you cited Paul's thoughts on the matter while Tim was more concerned with Jesus, who doesn't really ever say a whole lot about women (other than repeating the old Jewish laws, IIRC).<br /><br />To tangentize, I've never quite figured out how this Paul character ended up being so influential, anyway. I mean, in a couple of instances its arguable that his letters contradict some of Jesus' teachings (although the-bible-doesn't-contradict-itself-ever-ever-ever fundies in many cases can provide a decent counterinterpretation, usually of Jesus). But Christian theology today probably draws more from Paul's letters to every fishy-smelling port around the Mediterranean than it does from Christ's teachings as related in the Gospels. Odd for a religion called <b>Christ</b>ianity. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Grokca</b> <br /><small>Member # 722</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,6,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Very interesting point Tom I had never heard it interpretted like that before, must read Cor. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Shik</b> <br /><small>Member # 343</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,7,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:55 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I STILL want to know if the Corinthians wrote back. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,8,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:46 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Didn't Cecil Adams address that?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.straightdope.com" target="_blank">http://www.straightdope.com</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,11,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:42 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> While we can of course debate about whether the New Testament, as it currently exists, is representative of "real" Christianity, it seems to me that, in cases such as these, we should accept whatever is considered orthodox. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,15,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:34 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I suppose I shouldn't have given "points to Christianity". I'd even reconsidered writing that, but I went ahead and put it because it sounded reasonable. What I meant was that the recording teachings of Isho' seem more reasonable to me than the recoreded teachings of Muhammad, assuming the above citation is fairly well representative. But I've never read the Quran, so I don't know... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,2,17,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 02, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:00 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't think your gut feeling was entirely unreasonable, though, Tim. Christianity and Islam took hold in cultures that were already fairly different from each other. For one thing, early Christianity was primarily urban, while early Islam was not, and rural cultures have different concerns than urban ones.<br /><br />So, it seems to me that we can't necessarily seperate the secular causes from the religious ones. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>G.K Nimrod</b> <br /><small>Member # 205</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,3,3,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 03, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:26 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Where's my smoking jacket when I need it?<br /><br />I suppose the people in those first-gen muslim countries already were the way they are then, socio-psychologically, and the passing of time didn't have the same effect it had in the west.<br /><br />A bit of a tie-in to the rural stem of the culture/religion. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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