quote:

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JACQUES Chirac�s opposition to the war in Iraq and the desecration of Allied graves by anti-British vandals have ended France�s reign as the UK�s favourite holiday destination.

A loss of 300,000 visitors and a 25 per cent drop in bookings in a month mean Spain is now officially Britain�s top tourist venue after 14 years in second place.

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quote:

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One holiday, an activity break in the Dordogne, which includes archery, sailing, abseiling and windsurfing, has been discounted by nearly �1,000.

The �1,500 holiday is on offer to a family of five for �500 for a week on full board.

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quote:

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U.S. importers of French products said the effect has been significant. Guillaume Touton, a Frenchman who is president of wine distributor Monsieur Touton Selection Ltd. in New York, said anti-French feeling cost him $500,000 in sales last month. French wines usually account for two-thirds of his business, but now his customers, mostly retail stores, want something else.

"Typically, the guy says, 'No, I don't want French wine. Give me Spanish wine, Italian wine,' " said Touton, who has an office in Capitol Heights, Md.

W.J. Deutsch & Sons Ltd. of White Plains, N.Y. -- the No. 1 U.S. importer of French wines, as measured by cases shipped -- said its sales dropped 10 percent in the past two months. Bill Deutsch, its president, wouldn't divulge specific figures but said his sales were down by hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"We have seen French wines decreasing," Deutsch said. "We've seen stores take French wines off the floor of their store. We've seen major chains stop the advertising of French wines in their weekly ads." He reported substantial increases in sales of Italian, Australian and Spanish wines.

Patricia Carreras, president of IC&A Inc., a home-decor business in New York that imports exclusively French products, said sales have been down 40 to 50 percent since February. Her small firm, with four employees, sells Limoges porcelain, hand-painted candles picturing Parisian scenes, and other French-oriented products to big mail-order houses and other large U.S. companies.

"It's a very, very deep reaction," said Carreras, who is French. "We would never have expected something so lasting. I think it has been accelerating even in the last four weeks."

The importers, angry and frustrated, said the government in Paris did not comprehend the effect of its war position on French businesses.

Touton has tried to fight the trend by pledging to give $1 for every case of wine he sells to the USO to help U.S. troops in Iraq. He has done it for two weeks but it hasn't helped much. He said he thinks that business will pick up only when Chirac stops making anti-U.S. statements.

"We want to send the message to the French side to please do something. Or, if you don't want to do anything, then please shut up," Touton said.

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Never underestimate the power of the American consumer or the British tourist!

It's all a bit childish really, but not quite as childish as renaming the French Fries.
That was just pathetic behaviour.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I, personally, intend to start freedom kissing at the earliest opportunity.
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
I'm surprised, I would have thought Spain was number one already, what wiv all ver lads going dahn to Eyebeefa and havin' it large.

But then on second thoughts everyone goes across the Channel to buy cheap booze in Calais. . .
 

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Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
 
This shows how people being ignorant can greatly affect the world.
 

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
Utterly disgusting.

So, when is the boycott of Canadian Bacon and Beer going to begin? I think our government has spit out more virulent and severe forms of Anti-Americanism than France has.

In retrospect, France should have just shut up and let, oh, China take the rap. And what happened to boycotts of China, Russia, and Germany?
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
China?
Why would China give a rats ass about what happens to Iraq? Didn't they abstain on most of the UN votes about Iraq?

Besides, before the whole war and after 9-11 there were amusing rumours that China would turn a blind eye to America's war on terror, in return for China having a free hand at taking down Muslim separatists in western China. All in all, a pretty sweet deal
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
There are products manufactured in Canada?
 

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 



 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I hate this culture. I really do.
 

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Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
 
I was manufactured in Canada.
 

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
So, it is childish for people to boycott, or demonstrate against the Freedom point of view, but it is alright to protest against the war???

At least the boycotting isn't a violent protest with people getting arrested.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, let's see if there's a difference...

protesters: "We think the US government is abusing its power and disregarding any hopes of world peace for its own benefit."

boycotters: "We think the French are smelly."

I wonder who has the more valid position for protest?
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
The previous announcement was made possible by your Total Shite Network.

Try this for positions. And I'm not even boycotting the weasels.

boycotters: We think the French are abusing their position on the Security Council to hold on to their oil interests in Iraq, continued to sell weapons to Iraq, are unwilling to take ANY measures to bring about positive change in the Middle East, are willing to endanger others to maintain their power base, are willing to threaten other countries who disagree with them, are hypocritically involving themselves militarily in the Ivory Coast, are jerks for trying to control a defense organization whose military arm they pulled out of, and should finally be given a taste of their own arrogance and smugness that we've had to put up with for the last several decades.
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Saltah'na:
And what happened to boycotts of China, Russia, and Germany?

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quote:

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WASHINGTON, April 15 (UPI) -- Condoleezza Rice, President George W. Bush's national security adviser, is reliably said to have summarized post-war policy to the non-allies with the phrase: "Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."

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quote:

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We think the French are abusing their position on the Security Council to hold on to their oil interests in Iraq

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quote:

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continued to sell weapons to Iraq

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quote:

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are unwilling to take ANY measures to bring about positive change in the Middle East

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quote:

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are willing to endanger others to maintain their power base

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quote:

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are willing to threaten other countries who disagree with them

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quote:

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are hypocritically involving themselves militarily in the Ivory Coast

---

quote:

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are jerks for trying to control a defense organization whose military arm they pulled out of

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quote:

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and should finally be given a taste of their own arrogance and smugness that we've had to put up with for the last several decades.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saltah'na:
"Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."

Can someone give me a rational reason why?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saltah'na:
"Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."

Can someone give me a rational reason why?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saltah'na:
"Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."

Can someone give me a rational reason why?

---

France asks for it: they snub their nose at everyone publicly when they've done the exact same things as if was their right.
Remember their treatment of the Algerian terrorists in the 50's?
Germany has been our freind then enemy then freind over and over so many times that it's hard to keep a scorecard on them: They were ruthless facists untill the allies beat them. Now they are ruthless capitalists and we should bitch?
That's like being pissed at Japan for making better cars. Yes they're bastards, but who is'nt any more?
Russia is not forgiven: Russia is still punchdrunk and dizzy from their own devices (politically and economically) but they have nukes and are'nt afraid to sell them so we don't kick our old enemy when he's down.
 

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Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
 
Don't let me stop you, Vogon.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"France asks for it: they snub their nose at everyone publicly when they've done the exact same things as if was their right."

That's true, they do.

Oh, wait. Sorry. I thought you said "the US"...
 

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Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
 
TSN you forget that paitriotism is the great blinding force that runs America.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
And of course the French are certainly under no illusions about where French culture stands on the global stage.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
It's not France; it's Chirac, as someone said here - he's a fruit-loop!
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"TSN you forget that paitriotism is the great blinding force that runs America."

I live here. It's hard to forget while being exposed to it on a daily basis.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 

quote:

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It's not France; it's Chirac, as someone said here - he's a fruit-loop!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Daryus Aden:
Look, you're just peeved because he (the French people, WHOEVER) got in the way of your agenda. Big deal, thats freedom of experssion. Get over it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by First of Two:
The previous announcement was made possible by your Total Shite Network.

Try this for positions. And I'm not even boycotting the weasels.

boycotters: We think the French are abusing their position on the Security Council to hold on to their oil interests in Iraq, continued to sell weapons to Iraq, are unwilling to take ANY measures to bring about positive change in the Middle East, are willing to endanger others to maintain their power base, are willing to threaten other countries who disagree with them, are hypocritically involving themselves militarily in the Ivory Coast, are jerks for trying to control a defense organization whose military arm they pulled out of, and should finally be given a taste of their own arrogance and smugness that we've had to put up with for the last several decades.

---

Oooh! I like this one! Pretty darned kewel statement and something I totally agree with.
 

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Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 

 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 

quote:

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Including not buying their crummy wine

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quote:

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Originally posted by First of Two:
If that's true, then so is reacting to it in any non-military way we choose. Including not buying their crummy wine, or having a "Royale with cheese"

(HEY! Talk about changing the names of your food!!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Vogon Poet:

Which begs the question: what, then, is the tipple of choice in the Farquar household? How does Rob wet his whistle? When Firsty is thirsty, what does he knock back? Were I ever to pop round for a bevvy chez Farquad - and stranger things have happened - what would we be quaffing?

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Most likely, iced tea. Luzianne, Lipton, maybe Giant Eagle if I'm strapped for cash. Or chilled water.

Far more disconcerting would be the way in which my empty beverage container is simply placed in the sink, while my guest's is removed by a hostess wearing thick gloves, and placed in a box for a clandestine nighttime burial somewhere far out in the country.

But by then, they're usually beyond noticing.

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:
The blood of his enemies, I expect.

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Very rarely. Vitae is too rich, and the measures needed to preserve it too cumbersome. Worse, given the sick, depraved lifestyles in which my enemies tend to engage, there would be considerable risk of disease.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Lee is swarming with STDs now?
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
To drink out of?
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
See, that's what happens when someone is so busy trying to be a smart alec that they haven't noticed that you've edited your post.
 

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
I was wondering why Sol would be questioning drinking out of Lee's STDs, but then again, this is Flare.
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Funnily enough, I did once go to a sexual health clinic. Turned out to be a simple urinary infection, totally untransmissible - I'd just been having too much sex, that's all. 8)

So Rob drinks iced tea. But is it alcoholic iced tea? Are we actually being told you don't drink?! That's just not normal. I mean, are you telling us that when you get together for your litle Masonic get-togethers, to do whatever it is Masons do (plan Steve Guttenberg's return to stardom?), they're totally dry affairs? I'm not sure what is scarier, a sober secret society or one that's three sheets to the wind.
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Yes, Masonic functions (at least, the official ones, and meetings) are dry. There's a bit of Masonic Law about not suffering "irregular indulgences" which seems to extend to drinking.

Banquets and such, that's a different story.

No, I don't drink, at all... anymore. I drank fairly regularly in my last year of college, and in grad school, but I quit alcohol, let me see... more than six years ago, for various and sundry reasons, the two most important being a family history of alcohol abuse (two grandparents and an aunt were alcoholics), and my suspicion that I was heading in that direction myself. So I went teetotal. Actually, I'm fairly certain that I'd mentioned that before.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
"Irregular indulgences"? Either you mean you're required to keep a fiber-healthy diet, or you're only allowed to indulge in things if you do it constantly...
 

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
I was wondering also, are the banquets scheduled regularly?
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
I suppose by that definition, maintaining an ongoing heroin addiction would be no problem. 8)
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Feh. These words meant different things, 300+ years ago.

For instance, used to be that "artificial" meant something completely different from its current meaning of "fake," : "made with great skill and talent"
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
So, what, you've had trouble adapting your language to that used since the light bulb was invented?
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
It's a really big deal to them that Masonic language, as used in the ceremonies and oaths and stuff, NEVER CHANGES. The PA lodge is particularly anal about that. Worse, PA is probably the only remaining grand lodge which doesn't permit any part of its rituals to be written down. Everything has to be memorized, and passed on through rote repetition. Trying to get your tongue around some of the more archaic phrases is a real treat for the brain.
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Oh, so it's OK to interpret these ancient words in a modern context, but not certain parts of the Constitution pertaining to firearms? 8)
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Within Masonry, no, it's NOT okay to interpret those ancient words in a modern context. That's the whole damned point, doopus! You have to use the old language. AND, you have to know what it meant then, in order to understand it.

For instance: "Well regulated" (a recognizeable phrase, yes?) back then had nothing to do with rules and regulations. It simply meant "uniform" as in "all structured in the same manner, orderly, well-maintained."

If you had a "well regulated" lodge (or militia, as it may be), that merely meant that someone coming in from another lodge would find the structure and procedures of his lodge essentially identical to your own, and be able to integrate with a minimum of fuss.
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Actually, I was replying to this:

quote:

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Feh. These words meant different things, 300+ years ago.

---

More to the point, I was winding you up. Unclench. I'm sure we'd all agree that the whole gun control thing is one that we're never going to agree on, so why bother go into it all again?

What I would like to know is, what do you get out of being a Mason? What is it about it that pushes the right buttons for you? I really am curious. I've no desire to join that kind of society, and was wondering what the attraction is.
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Honestly? It was something to do with my dad, now that he's retired.

Now that I work on meeting nights, I don't do much in the way of Masonic stuff, though I still do what charity work I can, and help out when I'm off.
 

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
It is either:

A. The 'true' governing body for most of the world that protects itself by blaming the Jews.

or

B. A men's club with self imposed ancient rituals that mainly serves as a place to swap stories and advice in ones choosen profession.

Item B is what a guy told me, which, if Item A is 'true', is what I would expect.
 

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
It's B. Jews can be Masons. So, for that matter, can Muslims, or anybody else who believes in a Supreme Being. Although the overtones, even in the Blue Lodge (the most basic) are decidedly Judeo-Christian in nature (They use a Bible, but I don't know if they use a Koran or a Torah in nations with a majority i other religions.)

[ April 26, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: First of Two ]
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
So it really is like the Stonecutters?
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by First of Two:
It's B. Jews can be Masons. So, for that matter, can Muslims, or anybody else who believes in a Supreme Being. Although the overtones, even in the Blue Lodge (the most basic) are decidedly Judeo-Christian in nature (They use a Bible, but I don't know if they use a Koran or a Torah in nations with a majority i other religions.)

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quote:

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or anybody else who believes in a Supreme Being

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quote:

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. . . Is believing in a supreme being required though? Because I thought you didn't.

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quote:

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Um... Satan is not on par with ANY aspect of God.

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quote:

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Well, three more-or-less interchangeable entities that form one holy trinity do not constitute true polytheism, IMO.

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quote:

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The dogma of the Holy Trinity
(taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.

The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."

St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

quote:

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Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me.

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Apparently, that explains it.

If you work out what it means, please tell me.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
In practice, Christians talk about Satan nearly as much as they talk about God.

The thing is, if you actually talk to a Christian at length, they're not really interchangeable at all.

Both of these depend on the Christian. I certainly don't talk about Satan all that much, nor do any of my friends. And I do, to a great degree, consider the trinity interchangable.

Though even without Satan, one could argue for Christianity as polytheism simply based on the beliefs around God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. For all intents and purposes they're treated as separate entities.

Again with the definition of seperate dieties. If you have three entities that have similar natures and the exact same motivations and intentions, where does one stop and the next begin?
 

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Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
 
Depends on the guy at the drive thru.

You've got to be careful though Ommey. If God is ever present, omnipotent etc then in theory you could say that EVERYTHING is a part of him. Some demarkation is required.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"The thing is, if you actually talk to a Christian at length, they're not really interchangeable at all. God the father basically represents the Old Testament God, and is sort of a far-removed overseer, has good intentions but doesn't want to ruin his manly image with compassion. Jesus has the compassion that God pretends he doesn't, and he's the person Christians have a 'relationship' with, not God. He'd be a gentle caretaker. The Holy Spirit is an amorphous entity that basically does everything God pretends not to do. I had a conversation with a Christian flatmate where I was informed something like 'God is within you through the Holy Spirit.' The HS also provides intuition and guidance and such things."

God is the burly ex-marine, Jesus is his long-haired hippy son, and the Holy Spirit is their talking, philosophical pet bird.

And Satan is the wacky next-door neighbor!
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
"Jesus was a hippie?"

"Course he was. He had long hair and didn't have a job. What else do you call that?"
 

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
I am boycotting the religious debate, which makes almost as much sense to have as the 'gun' banning debates.
 

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