I'm going to start out by saying that Dan Brown's writing skills are, well, gosh, not that of what you might expect a NYT Bestselling author to be. I mean, my god, he stinks!
But the draw of the book isn't the prose, and if you've read The DaVinci Code, or the book Dan Brown took the research from, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", you know what I mean. If you're not familiar with it, "The DaVinci Code" can best be explained as likening it to "The Titanic" - the boat did sink, but most everything else was fiction. In "The DaVinci Code", a French cop and an American professor race to unravel mysterious clues that pop up following the murders of four members of a secret society tasked with guarding a secret which could undo modern Christianity.
I recently picked up "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" which was first published in the mid-1980's. It tells the tale of a secret society, the Prieure de Sion, the Templar Knights, and the reality of the Holy Grail - that it was not a cup which caught Christ's blood, but rather that it was a she - namely, Mary Magdelene, wife of Jesus Christ, and mother of his children - a bloodline which continues to this day.
Of course the book was blasted by Christians when it first came out, but what I wanted to pose as a question here was this: Assuming this theory is true, and that Christ didn't die on the cross, and that he did have children, how would this affect Christian faith? Is Christian faith founded solely on Christ's supposed death, or on his message?
Anyway, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is a fascinating read, to Christians and non-Christians alike. Just the introductions to how the authors began their investigation is incredible, with a old tomb in the South of France with the mysterious inscription in Latin, "Begone! I Conceal the Secrets of God!"
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Actually, IIRC, I've heard speculation that Mary Magdalene (sp?) was Jesus' wife...
Just wanted to throw that out there.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
They were married and she was pregnant before the crucifiction, whether J.C. died up there or not.
--Jonah
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I've read it & quite enjoyed it. I've also read all of Dan Brown's other books (thanks to Mom, Amazon, & a wonderful sergeant who hauled the box out of property for me) & I'll agree a bit with the style critique. All his books use the same flow pattern: chracter intro, set up of backgorund, foreshadowing sentence of further events at the end of an early chapter, events 1-2-3-4, climax, resolution. And it all happens in the period of one day.
I enjoyed it for the sheer ability to help pound jail Christians to the floor.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: chracter intro, set up of backgorund, foreshadowing sentence of further events at the end of an early chapter, events 1-2-3-4, climax, resolution. And it all happens in the period of one day.
Sounds like a description of sex. Or, so I'm told.
Well, there's nothing in the Bible suggesting that Jesus was married.* Lots of women followed him around. Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, were close friends of his as well. There's also nothing in the Jewish or Christian doctrines against being married and the later books of the Greek scriptures go into alot of detail about family life. Had Jesus actually been married, certainly the scriptures would have been plain about it, providing an excellent example of how a perfect man lead his family.
Christian faith is indeed tied to the death of Christ, the resurrection providing a basis for belief in the covenant arrangement Jesus established with his apostles and other annointed disciples that would follow. The message Jesus preached primarily had to do with the Kingdom. Since Christ was to rule in that Kingdom, the resurrection would proivide a basis for belief in that as well.
*Everything here following comes under the caveat of "This is what Aban believes based on his study of the Bible." Don't take it as the opening shots of a religious debate. Just my answer to Snay's question.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Aban,
And surely you're aware that the Catholic Church did more than its fair share of "edits" of what gospels went into the Bible? How do you know the Gospels provide a picture of what ACTUALLY went on when Christ was supposedly crucifixed, and not a picture of the values of the 3rd century Church?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The gospel of John was in existence in the early second century. Most scholars agree that the gospels couldn't have been written after the end of the first century.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Has to do with believing that God wouldn't allow fundamental errors to remain in a series of documents that He intended to act as both testimony and guide. I know not everyone believes that the Bible is an inspired book. But lots of people do. I was just answering your question, "Is Christian faith founded solely on Christ's supposed death, or on his message?"
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Omega,
I'm not saying that they were written later. What I am suggesting is that the Catholic Church may have destroyed certain gospels altogether, and perhaps edited those which remained.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
It's... conceivable that other gospels might have been wiped out, but just barely. If we're talking centuries after the fact, for anything to live that long there'd have to be lots and lots of copies. For ALL those copies to be destroyed, and there to be NO record of a concerted attempt to destroy them, would be quite a trick.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
But less of a trick in ~200AD than it would be in ~2000AD.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hypothetically speaking, Cartman has a point. Any group that could create a concerted attempt to destroy them all, would also be in a perfect position to eliminate any record of the attempt. Afterall, who else would care about it the most? Its not like some guy could write about it and then email to our century.
I mean 200AD, what neutral observer would even be in a position to create records that would last till today? Some random bureaucrat in China would have the ability, but not the caring...some guy attached to the Church wouldn't have the ability, even if they did care.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm still not getting how Jesus having children means he didn't die on the cross. I've heard that theory, and always assumed, like Peregrinus, that if he was cruxified, he'd have had the kids before hand. Or at least got her pregent before he died. Like Goku! Who is he like in every single way.
Posted by Tora Ziyal (Member # 53) on :
This reminds me of the PC game Gabriel Knight: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned, a mystery adventure which also based its story/research around "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." Excellent game, by the way.
It also reminds me of a Christian polygamy cult in Arizona which believes they are the descendents of Jesus, and their men marry their 14 to 15-year-old cousins or nieces in order to keep the bloodline "pure." They only marry their first wives legally, and the rest are all "single moms" under the law and live on welfare.
But anyway, I probably will get around to reading this book since a friend recommended it. I'm the 8th person to put it on hold at my library though.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
*can this be deleted?*
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I'm the 8th person to put it on hold at my library though."
The book has been out for just over a year now, and there are still 18 people on the list at the library where I work. The book has never actually made it onto the shelves, because it's been on hold continuously. We even have eleven copies of it.
"What I am suggesting is that the Catholic Church may have destroyed certain gospels altogether, and perhaps edited those which remained."
Are you aware that some of the gospels that were left out of the bible are still around? The funny thing is that the Catholic church actually does believe in elements of those other documents, even though the documents themselves are considered apocryphal.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm. Gabriel Knight, haven't heard that name in a while, but it is one of the older games on my to-play list, which is comparable in size to my to-read list.
That polygamy cult sounds like something that Darwin will take care of naturally. *sniff* Its so heart-warming to see science in action.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Natural and unnatural selection teaming up. Beautiful, isn't it? B)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Did just a little research on "canon" last night in the copius seconds of free time I have. Apparently, in the second century, writers and historians were already referring to "the scriptures" and "the gospels", as well as quoting from various epistles. Strong evidence that the inspired canon was already consider to be closed at that point.
There are definitely other documents out there from the same period that haven't made it into the Bible canon, but after John's death, the last of the apostles, and his contribution of the revelation and his three letters, it seems the collection of inspired works was considered complete by writers of the time.
Like I said, this was brief research. I'm sure there are other points to be made about the issue of canon.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...but after John's death, the last of the apostles, and his contribution of the revelation and his three letters..."
Omega will probably argue about this, but I was taught that John the Apostle and John of Patmos were not the same guy. He would have been pretty damn old by the time he wrote about the Apocalypse, if he were one guy.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Pretty old? Like Methuselah old?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I'm still not getting how Jesus having children means he didn't die on the cross. I've heard that theory, and always assumed, like Peregrinus, that if he was cruxified, he'd have had the kids before hand. Or at least got her pregent before he died. Like Goku! Who is he like in every single way.
Mabye one of the quashed gospels deals with Jesus becoming a giant were-monkey every full moon untill Judas "betrayed" him by cutting off his tail with an energy disk.....
Well, it's still not as crazy as Revalations. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Pretty old? Like Methuselah old?"
No. But at least in his 80s or so. Which would be more than significantly aged in that time period.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Well, if he ate right and walked everywhere, he'd probably be healthier than your typical Roman serf, or even orgy-indulging official...
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If it's a choice between being aorgy-indulging official or a celibate preacher that can walk on water.....I know my choice.
Besides, I hate my dad.
Poor Jesus: no chance to rebel or to escape his father's shadow.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
quote:Poor Jesus: no chance to rebel or to escape his father's shadow.
Well he did teach peace whereas his father smote everyone who didn't agree with him.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
If he smote everyone who didn't agree with him, you wouldn't be around to say it, now would you? Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
He's done a lot less smiting ever since his kid put him in a retirement home.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
TSN: Now that was funny. Of course, I'd be looking for a lightning rod right about now...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think God has already punished Tim by making him larger than most medium-sized towns. A lightning bolt would just be overkill.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That made my day, Tim!
Fucking hysterical! Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"A lightning bolt would just be overkill."
Not to mention hardly conductive. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Rrriiimshot!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That was possibly the greatest pun ever done on these forums.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
It was a pun? I thought that it was merely a very very very very bad joke...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What do you think a pun is?
pun n. A play on words, sometimes on different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense or sound of different words.
Conductive, both in the sense of being useful, and electricity. Hence, "pun".
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Hence the Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Quit sucking the humor out of my pun. Now.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
At least he didn't post lots and lots of emoticons in a row...
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)