Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Do you think Paramount would listen to a petition

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Posted by jh on :

Signed by Trek fans that said they would rather have several years without Trek than a new series that was horribly opposite everything we expect from Trek? If so should we try it?

Personally they're starting to disgust me and if they think that they can just force feed us anything then maybe it's worth a try.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

How about: "Dear Paramount. None of us have had a good word for the pap you've been putting out for quite a few years, but we've been watching it anyway. Now we'd like you to stop, pretty please, although we'll still watch it if you ignore this letter, no matter how crap it is."

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

I think Star Trek does need a break. It won't die if it rests for a few years. Even if the kept the movies and syndicated reruns going, that would make people happy. The producers and writers need to forget their politics, take a few years rest and then they or someone else can come back with a fresh, new idea. Star Trek is a good show, but the stories are not that good anymore. There are good ones, but not as many as there used to be. It has been going good episode, two bad, good, three bad, etc. It used to be five good, one bad, four good, one bad, etc. Star Trek needs to recapture what it had in the early 1990's without copying ST:TNG.

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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!

Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :

I feel that Star Trek needs a break. Just look at the span from TOS to TNG and people still liked it. A span would not hurt Star Trek one bit. They could put out the next movie in the next couple of years and then a year or two after that start a new series.

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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I don't necessarily think a break would be bad either. It's just that are so many good stories left in the Trek Universe to be touched on. They just need to find a way to get there.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I still think that for Trek to work, someone has to be at the helm that shares Gene's dream, and the only person I can think of that fits the bill is Majel.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I agree there ARE still good episodes being made, but not at the same rate as they used to.

I think we need several years of television trek rest.

There are 178 TNG, 178 DS9 79 TOS and 125 VOY + 22 TAS episodes...

that is

600 episodes of star trek + 9 movies

that is A LOT of trek!!!!!!!!!!!

how many people here can put their hand up and say I have seen EVERY single trek episode... TWICE!?!

I used to watch TNG a few times...

DS9 is my favourite - but I haven't had time to see every episode twice... let alone Voyager

I have seen EVERY TNG, EVERY DS9 (except the last 6 yet to be shown here) and ALL the Voyagers so far.

I have seen 4 TAS (which I must admit are VERY good)

and about 30 TOS... (hey my video store hasn't got them in TV doesn't show them here and I'm already buying 2-3 videos a month.)

Also I watch B5 - I've seen them all... add another 112

episodes thats over 700. + 13 Crusade. + 60 Stargate SG1...

Thats getting close to 800 episodes people... of sci-fi alone.

too much... too much.

Oh oh add another 60 Buffy episodes...

sheesh...

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"Remove your hand or I will remove your arm!" - 7 of 9

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

I must admit there are a couple DS9s and even fewer TOS episodes I've not seen (but if I have seen one, I've seen it at least twice), but I'm not going to pay umpteen more dollars per month just to get TAS (of which I saw a couple episodes which were rather turn-off-ish).

A break could work, but a breath of fresh air could also be more than sufficient.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

A break wouldn't hurt Star Trek. Just look at Star Wars or the Brady Bunch. Star Wars took a 15+ year break and it was a success (sort of), and a Brady Bunch movie is coming out on ABC soon.

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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I don't think Trek is anywhere near exausting the episode possiblities- but they are just running a little low on fuel for now. Taking a breather not only allows the new creative team to come at trek with a fresh perspective, but it also opens up story ideas that creators just wouldn't have come up with or that wouldn't have worked before. TNG wasn't limited storywise by TOS at all (although this isn't the impression one gets from the first two seasons). It was a whole new era in real time as well as trek and that offered a whole new gamut of plot possibities to exploit. One trek constant from the very beginning no matter who is at the helm, is that it is a metaphor for the world around us....they haven't run out of stories of the future, it's the issues of the present that have been depleted.

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"Stood in firelight, sweltering bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent." -Rorschach

[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited November 09, 1999).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I think that Star Trek is, to be wordy, full of infinite possibilities. Can those possibilities be realized? We'll see.

But to answer the original question, no, Paramount wouldn't care about a petition. No one would ever be able to get enough people. But a petition isn't necessary. One votes with a remote control.

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"If you are going to be my girlfriend please don't dump me after I like you."
--
Michael

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Paris: I think the Brady Bunch movie had been made already -- IIRC, it starred Gary Cole of American Gothic and some B5 spinoff which I couldn't be bothered watching.
Totally off topic, I know.

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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.

Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

This might annoy some of you but I personally blame the Voyager series for Trek's current predicament. VOY SUX! Sorry, but it just had to be said.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by jh on :

Sol: Don't you think that voting with the remote is just going to be voting for the end of Trek, and not just it's 'hibernation'?

It just seems, and I know I'm being hopeful, that we need to find a way of convincing Paramount that we'll still be fans if they give it four or five years of rest, but that we might not be if they give us something just to call it Trek. I think that they think the visibility of Trek will be lost, and you know how fickle the average viewer is, but what they seem to forget is that the original Trek was gone for twenty years with only reruns (and only of 60+ episodes for cryin' out loud!) and a few movies to keep it going and yet when they brought it back it was stronger than ever.

So do you think that a petition might serve to remind them of the history of Trek and tell them we're not going anywhere? Let's face it, they don't have the best memory (any continuity person can attest to that).

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.

Posted by TerraZ on :

Come on, Paramount doesn't give a sh*t about what we true fans want. All they're gonna do is make as much cash as possible and then dump Trek for good.

Well I say stop it right after VOY has ended and let it rest for a while. I don't want a fifth serie which will probably be worst than VOY (which would be hard but not impossible). I'd prefer they killed the license before making more cr*p. Let it keep the last bit of dignity it still has.

It's true that we'd need someone who shared Gene's vision to make a successful serie. Majel would be perfect for that. Of course, I'm not saying we should completely go for optimism (after all, DS9 was a very good Trek despite the fact it didn't really follow Gene's vision) but it would be a nice change of pace.

As for a good idea for the fifth serie, I think they should go for a serie further along in the future. There just isn't anything interesting to tell anymore with today's Trek and a serie about the birth of the Federation would surely include a completely changed history (trust Braga to do just that) and the return of TOS like costume, props and the like (well, they wouldn't have to but if the wanted some CONTINUITY, they'd have to).

Well, enough ranting. In short, put Trek to sleep for a while and let it regain some strength.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Give me Good Trek or give me Death!
*Me*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I agree that if an early days of the federation was made- continuity would be thrown to the wind (with Braga in charge thats a likely consequence of any new series).
As far as the props needing to look pre-TOS, thats not necessarily a bad thing. I am sure some talented concept artists could do wonders with the retro thing. It doesn't have to look cheesy or poorly constructed, just designed with a minset and stylistic sensibilities that vary a little bit from that of the present day.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You don't suppose that Majel's production company (Roddenbery-Krishner, I believe) could buy the rights to Trek from Paramount, do you?

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Omega:
I don't think that Roddenberry-Kirschner(?) has the resources to get Paramount to hand over the cash cow that is Trek. More's the pity--obviously, none of us really know what Gene's vision for E:FC looked like, but I find myself tuning into it more often than VOY. I don't know how much control she really has over E:FC, but she did get the show off the ground, and that's worth something in my book.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

It was worth a shot...

Lt. Tom... any relation to Cmdr. Paris? : )

Welcome to the forums.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Posted by TerraZ on :

Obi Juan: By the look of TOS, I meant the props and costumes and the genral settings. It's true that they could be made to look a lot better than they did in the 60's. However, there would be a problem. If you keep continuity in mind, a big problem is that women were obviously discriminated in the early days of Starfleet.

Of course, now that I think about it, maybe it would be a good thing to change continuity just a little bit to make that sort of details fit. I wouldn't mind a redesign Enterprise with a lot more detailing and better yet classic special effects. Of course, they probably would butcher it (like they even considered it seriously for a second)

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Give me Good Trek or give me Death!
*Me*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Omega: It's a very good idea. The problem is that somewhere along the line, Paramount figured that it would be more profitable in the short term (and a lot less effort) to work Trek into the ground rather than carefully sustaining it for another generation.

Nope, no relation.

[This message has been edited by Lt. Tom (edited November 11, 1999).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I love Star Trek and I want to get as much of it as possible. I also love chocolate, and the only reason for me to take a break is that I'm getting too fat. I don't think Trek is fattening, so I'm looking forward to anything that is coming (in particular Voyager, BTW).

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"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way."
A somewhat different Janeway in VOY: "Living Witness"
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Supplement:

I'm not repeating the arguments I had against a Trek break some time ago, because all pros and contras are pointless in this case. This is a matter of attitude to Star Trek in general.

I wonder if I am still in the right forum if I read this thread. I'm not saying that I love everything if only a certain mountain appears in the opening or end credits. I'm not saying that I actually like certain crap episodes. I'm not saying that I like the way TPTB pay attention to the fans. I'm not saying that Star Trek is likely to keep a certain quality for all time.

Still, I feel completely different than most posters in this thread. I have seen every single episode two to ten or even more times, and I am even more looking forward to see more. There is no such point when I could be fed up.

Why do I get the impression that those who insist on taking a break (because they care so much about the show) will be the first ones among us who will forget Star Trek once it is not aired any more?

I usually appreciate what people in this forum write, and if I don't like it, it is at least worth considering. However, this touches the very basics of Star Trek. It might be a prejudice and please don't take it personally, but I have the impression that young people (I'm not that young anymore) often demand too drastic and too definite solutions, only to turn their backs on the topic some time later. Out of sight, out of mind.

As I said, I mostly enjoy even the most controversary discussions, but this is a drastic, maybe fanatic (missionary?) attitude beyond any arguing. A Trek community demanding the end (or at least a break) of Trek. Something I have encountered only in a discussion with a dedicated Trek hater. Not that I think anyone of you would hate Trek, but I hope you see my point.

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

In response:
"Would Paramount listen to a petition?"

Would they fu-

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"You will be swept away....
You, your men, your ship, your WORLDS!"

Posted by jh on :

Bernd: I wouldn't forget Trek at all if it went away. But I would have a greater appreciation for it when it returned. Familiarity, after all, does breed contempt.

I've seen every episode of TOS, and every episode of TNG and DS9 multiple times (except "Shades of Gray", could anyone watch that thing more than once?) and I will continue to watch them for a long time. But if the quality of Trek continues to suffer and go downhill (which on I believe is the trend on the whole, despite VOY's definite improvement over the past two seasons) will my love remain the same? Yes, for the originals, but never for anything that is a pale imitation. I don't just want Trek, I want what's good about Trek and I don't think that can be sustained indefinitely. There are only a finite number of stories to tell and if you keep the franchise running for 20 contiguous years they'll be exhausted sooner rather than later. Take the time and spread it out. Make the most out of it.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Actually, it occurs to me that makes two eps of TNG I've never seen - as well as "The High Ground" that's never been shown here because it's about Northern Ireland or something, there's "Shades of Gray." Do I look like I care?

Posted by TerraZ on :

Bernd: I understand what you mean, but believe me, I would like nothing more than for Trek to continue, but it seem to me that the spirit of Trek is slowly fading. I've been a fan of ST ever since the beginning of TNG and I can honestly say it was my favorite of all 4 series. It didn't have a lot of action, but it sure had some heart and tackled a lot of moral issues. DS9 was also very good, even though the setting was a lot more negative. It gave us a whole new perspective of the ST universe as well as making the Trek Universe a lot like our own in that it's not always fair. In addition, its crew remains the strongest I've seen (I actually cried at the end of WYLB).

I like TOS for what it represents since it honestly doesn't compare wery well to today's Trek. Back then, the television standards were very strict and it broke a lot of established rules. VOY on the other hand, doesn't really have anything to make it stand out. The crew isn't that likable (Kim is a Wesley-wannabe, Paris is the big macho, Checotay hardly does anything, Janeway has become a real b*tch in the last seasons) except for the Doctor, Tuvok and Neelix (yes, I actually like that guy!).

Oh, it's got great visual effects, lots of action, new aliens each week but is that really enough to call it Star Trek? And there's the dreaded techno-babble... Honestly, I think I really enjoy about 6 or 7 episodes each season. The rest, I only watch for continuity. Even is Trek continues for 10 more years and is worst than VOY I'm still going to watch it. Not because I'm enjoying myself, but because I'm attached to the ST Universe. It might not be a good reason, but it's the one motivating me to watch it now. I don't know if anyone feels like me, but if you do, please tell me.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Give me Good Trek or give me Death!
*Me*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

[This message has been edited by TerraZ (edited November 16, 1999).]

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Yep, I'm with you Terra. I hate VOY but I'm still compelled to watch it. It's canon Trek so it seems wrong to ignore it. I've always given Voyager the benefit of the doubt, but it's always let me down *sigh*.

The earlier 3 series ruled (DS9 is definately my fave) but VOY just doesn't cut it. Unfortunately, it gives me doubts for Series V. I don't want to have to turn my back on Trek but I may be given no choice...

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I think this topic is closely related to the ongoing "Voyager is crap" discussion that I can't approve of at all. Voyager is even about to become my favorite series, and I can't support any of the arguments against it. It's a matter of opinion, though.

I agree that there is one thing that might not have served Star Trek in the last few years: the two series running in parallel. I think if the whole interest is focussed on one series, the opinion of Star Trek may become better again. Yet, many people, in particular in this forum, are already too biased against Voyager, and they refuse a new series without even knowing the very basic synopsis.

Posted by TerraZ on :

Bernd: You're right, it's all about opinion. I'm sorry if I lost my temper, it's just that I'm in a very bad "Trek" mood these days...

All right so it had some very good moments... "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy" was without a doubt the funniest Trek episode ever and "Someone to watch over me" was very touching and enjoyable. The Doctor's the best caracter on the show with Tuvok and Neelix. "Riddle" was also very good despite the d*amn reset at the end and also "Extrem risk" for the Maquis thing. That's the kind of episode VOY unfortunately doesn't do enough. Caracter shows where their relationship evolves, where we get to see some hidden traits of their personality. Not "big space battle, bad aliens" shows" or "let's use a thingy drive to get closer to home". Ok, I'm finished, you won't hear me "bash" VOY too much again.

[I deleted some rantings about VOY 'overuse' of continuity since I shouldn't have put them here in the first place. This message was edited by a calmer and more gentle TerraZ]

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Give me Good Trek or give me Death!
*Me*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

[This message has been edited by TerraZ (edited November 18, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Er, they brought on the Borg in the first place because the fans were so displeased with their original, intended direction. Fans cried "Borg! Borg! Where are the Borg?" and they needed to answer. So, they had "Blood Fever" and "Unity". "Oops, they all didn't like those," says Taylor to Braga. "Let's restructure the original 'Year of Hell'-like cliffhanger you were going to write with Joe to a Borg-related one."

And there you have why the Borg became Voyager's toy: the fans.

Oh, and it's oh so terrible to pay reference to past Trek! Horrible, I tell you, to place Voyager in the establshed Trek canon! Evil, evil!

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

You can't place VOY in the established Trek canon. Remember when they went back to 1996 and got caught up in the Eugenics Wars?

"But Tom, that never happened! Their 1996 was just like our 1996, except that there was a company called ChronoWerx and no Star Trek!"

You're absolutely right.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

The "Future's End" gaffe is not an isolated mistake and not just one on Voyager, although admittedly the DS9 one was a mistake, too...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You're talking about the reference to the Eugenics wars being around two centuries before DS9, right? I don't think it was a mistake. I think the staff is trying to change the date on purpose. "Just move the date forward a century or two and we won't contradict real history."

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Well, Ron Moore specifically mentioned it was a mistake, and he even said that it had come about because he was channeling Khan's speech from ST II. "On Earth...200 years ago...I was a prince."

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"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

To all you lucky Americans: Is season 6 of VOY any good (so far) or should I just give up on it now? (I have to rely on the CIC videos).

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

It's worth it.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I've been tough on Voyager, for seasons 2 through 5.

6 has been very good.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Really? I'm glad to hear it. Maybe there is (Trek) life after DS9.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

No Trek and no Trek make Chris go crazy....

I am totally with Bernd. If Trek gets more than a year's break, I'll go nutso. Unless they make lots and lots of novels and I suddenly get rich so I can get every one that comes out, and Brandon keeps SOV going...

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"Waaawhooo! Lookie here ma, I caught me a lightnin' bug!"
-Jetstorm

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Well, if this is the collected intelligence of the fans, Paramount have no worries. We've had one post saying "Voyager is crap, but I watch it cause it's Trek", and someone else who says that "Neelix is one of the best characters on Voyager".

See? It doesn't matter WHAT Paramount do. You'll all watch it. Like you all went to see Star Wars. Like, even after gripping about it, you'll still go and see episode 2. Because it's Star Wars. And because Star Trek is Star Trek.

And, realism break here people. Let's imagine the situation

Berman: "Hey, I know! I'll tell my bosses to give Trek a break for a few years. I'm sure they'll pay me to just sit in my office for 5 years brainstorming a new series. They'll pay Brannon too. And when the new series starts, we'll have our jobs to come back to. Along with everyone else."

Trek makes Paramount money. As long as it continues to do so, they'll make Trek. Even if Insurrection didn't do as well as FC, it made money. And at the end of the day, that's the most important thing for the suits.

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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image