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Posted by Saboc on :

I've been thinking about this for a long time and still don't have the answer. Why is it that Data after more than 30 years of service, still a lieutenant commander? I remember that Data has been holding this rank for like forever, even before LaForge was a lieutenant jr. Aslo, I don't think it'd hurt to promote Tuvok and ensign Kim. They have beeing holding the same rank for like 6 years. What do you think?

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I think you are correct!! And welcome to the place!!

Star Trek has always been slow about promotion.

I think Starfleet was afriad that people wouldn't want to be under the command of an android.

Then there was the M-5 incident. They gave command of a ship to a computer, and it went on a killing spree.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

Kim and Data should be promoted. Data has been a Lt. Commander for at least 12 years. I think most people would be promoted to Lt. after 6 years as an ensign. How much would it hurt for Janeway to make him a Lt j.g. or even a full Lt. Hasn't Tuvok already been promoted to Lt. Commander from Lt.? But I have seen him in earlier episodes as Lt. Commander.

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All hands, abandon ship! All hand, abandon...
BOOM!

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Commander, sir!

Tuvok was a LCdr at the beginning of the series--he was busted down in rank by Cap'n Kathy for disobeying orders in one of those early "alien propulsion can take us halfway home" episodes. Now, the reason I remember this is because Tom Paris was originally given a field commission as a Ltnt--but after Tuvok lost half a pip, he became a LtJG. (I presume it was because TPTB needed Tuvok to outrank Paris, but there are plenty of IC explanations for why it happened.)

There's only one problem that I see with promoting Tuvok is that he'd be equal in rank to Chakotay and actually better qualified for the XO slot. Of course, I've never really seen the Maquis crew as "real" crew--but maybe that's because the writers didn't explore two opposing crews coming together as a cohesive unit. Damn them!

I'm not a big Harry Kim fan, but I'll agree that LtJG wouldn't be out of line for him. That way, we could actually pretend that his department head status wasn't the result of a typo by some clerk in Starfleet Personnel.

Darn emoticons. I like =). Is that a crime?

[This message has been edited by Lt. Tom (edited November 14, 1999).]

Posted by Saboc on :

I think that they should make Data a commander or even a captain. In the episode "The Wounded", Data commanded the Phoenix flawlessly. And that is a damn good reason for StarFleet to promote him. I think he'd be a good captain. (Honestly, I think he makes a better captain than Riker. I don't like Riker that much. He is so arrogant)But if StarFleet doesn't think the same than it's just sad. I mean it's the 24th century and....It's just sad...

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

[This message has been edited by Saboc (edited November 14, 1999).]

Posted by Saboc on :

By the way, who is captain Katty?

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

I don't think you'll find too many people arguing with you about Riker.

Cap'n Kathy = Captain Kathryn Janeway, CO USS Voyager NCC-74656.

Posted by Saboc on :

I can't tell you all how much I hate Riker. There is only one type of people I hate: arrogant people.
Riker is just beyond my limits. I wish that they make him dies in the next movie. I also think Riker is the weakest character in all of the four series.
Sorry, I'm a bit emotional. I just hate Riker. LOL

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Actually, he's a very good person IMHO. I really liked him in "Frame of Mind".

As for Riker, he has turned down not one, not two, not three, but FOUR chances of being promoted to Captain, twice in the same episode!!! Guess he's not that ready yet. And very content to stay under Picard's command.

I didn't watch Insurrection, but (SPOILER WARNING) Picard was appointed ambassador (or so I heard) in that movie. Wouldn't Riker be promoted to Captain if that's the case?

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Saboc on :

Nah, Picard didn't get appoint to ambassador. And no no no no, Riker is not captain of the Enterprise. Thank God.

And why is it that the Enterprise keeps getting larger and longer everytime a new comes out? And what is so special about the Enterprise. I personally like the Defiant and the Thunderchild better...

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by Saboc on :

Even if Riker is promoted to captain, I doubt that StarFleet would give the flag ship to a first time captain. If they do, I will then have to kill everyone at Paramount Pictures...lol..just kidding. I just hate Riker so much.

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

In terms of Voyager, there aren't too many promotions Janeway can hand out. I mean, after a few decades of that everyone would be captain.

"I'm Fleet Commander and Grand Vizier of the Spaceways. I'm in charge of every jeffries' tube on decks six through seven!"

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"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

The Enterprise is special because she's the flagship. The ship and crew are supposed to represent everything the Federation stands for. It's also tradition, which is something recognized not only by Starfleet but by us folks in the 20th century. The name Enterprise is part of what connects the whole saga together. It all goes back to a show in the Sixties that turned a number of ideas about science fiction and about television upside-down. This show had a ship, the USS Enterprise, no bloody A, B, C, D, or E.

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

And now for the lighter stuff:
Saboc: Even though the Ent-E is longer than the Ent-D, it's actually about one-third the size. Regarding Starfleet not giving command of the flagship to a first time captain, think about the Ent-B. Excel refit, the most advanced ship in the fleet, the pride of the Federation... Captain John "Tuesday" Harriman, commanding. =D

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Then again, ol' "Tuesday" Harriman might be a hardened veteran of the spaceways, hero of countless space battles, three-time savior of the universe, who just happens to turn into jello when facing James T. Kirk himself.

And it's not as if Harriman was less competent than Kirk. He just happened to have a bad ship under him. His initial choice was the right one - don't go into that Nexus thing since you won't get out anyway. Kirk made a bad choice but had luck (and Scotty) on his side, and only lost one life. Too bad it was his.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

It's reasonable to assume that Riker would have stayed Captain of the Ent-D if they didn't retrieve Picard in "TBoBW pII". Remember that alternate reality in "Parallels"?

Didn't Tuvok start the series as Full Lt and is now Lt Cmdr?

It seems unlikely that Data will be promoted to Full Cmdr if he remains on the Enterprise. Also, I always thought it was weird that the Ent-A had two officers with the rank of Captain (Kirk and Spock). Shouldn't one of them been given another ship?

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

At the end, Scott was a captain too.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Und spock.

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-You're crazy!!!
-I thought I was pisces!

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Do try to keep up, Nimmychops. Dax already mentioned Spock. 8)

I think the example of the TOS crew at the end of their run is one reason why they're reluctant to promote people on Voyager. You had three captains and three Commanders on the E-A. . . mind you, look at Picard and Co: One captain, one captain (battlefield promotion, reverted to previous rank by choice alone, it seems), two (three) Commanders, three Lt. Commanders (two of whom started out as Lt's JG, the other being Data who's still unpromoted).

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The Enterprise-D had a good excuse for being full of people of overtly high rank - it was the Flagship of the Federation, after all. But we have no indication that the E-E is such a flagship, which is why it's good we already got rid of Lt.Cmdr Worf. We have seen that other large ships do quite nicely with a Lt.Cmdr as the first officer. And if Picard finally gets off the ship and Riker gets the fourth pip, then Data could get full Commander rank and everybody would be happy.

Tuvok's little dance from Lt.Cmdr to Lt. to Lt.Cmdr, and Tom Paris' steady downward glide from Lt. to Ensign are minor problems that could be considered plot points instead of errors, while Kim's inability to gain a promotion is really annoying. It's obvious that the high-ranking bridge crew should not be promoted any further so as not to mix up the chain of command, but Kim is forced to act as a department head in a ship where plenty of his underlings outrank him. Making Kim at least Lt. (j.g.) would help clarify the command relations a lot.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Well, let's look at Voyager: One captain (who should really be a Commander given the size of the ship, two Lt. Commanders (Chakotay IS one, remember); One Lt (or Lt. JG, I can't remember - we're talking about Torres here, who would want to look closely at her?) and two Ensigns.

That's the main cast. Roll Call gives the following list:

Captain: Janeway
Commander: Chakotay (incorrect - he is a Lt. Cdr)
Lieutenant Commander: Tuvok
Lieutenants: Ayala, Baxter, Carey, Hargrove, Nicoletti, Rollins, Torres. (note no distinction between Full and Junior Grade)
Ensigns: Ashmore, Baytart, Bristow, Brooks, Culhane, Gallagher, Golwat, Harper, Hickman, Jurot, Kaplan, Kim, Kyoto, Lang, McCormick, Molina, Mulcahy, Murphy, Paris, Parsons, Powell, Ryson, Sharr, Tabor, Vorik, Wildman.

So I think there IS room for promotion there.

The Tuvok thing is difficult to explain. It was never established in dialogue that he was demoted - his third pip just vanished at about that time. Plus, he had them on the wrong way round in terms of black to one side and silver on the the other.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Tuvok: I believe he wore two and a half for the whole first season. It was a production mistake. He was supposed to be a full Lt. until his promotion awhile back.

Paris and Torres: I think they were both always supposed to be JG's. Torres commented once that they were the same rank.

Kim definately needs a promotion. I'd be ready to mutiny.

Data: Should be promoted to Commander, but remember Eddington's line in DS9, "You don't get to sit in the captain's chair wearing a gold uniform." Evidently, security/ engineering officers don't get promoted past Lt. Comm very often.

Janeway: There's no precedent (that wasn't a mistake) for any one with a rank of less than Captain being given permanent command of a starship that I can remember. Size in this case just doesn't matter. :-)

Although, the size of the ship would make the fact that it is full of low ranking officers and crewmen (and Ensigns as dept heads) more plausible.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

TFO: I forgot about how Troi and Crusher are Cmdrs. The fact that they are medical officers tends to overshadow their high command rank, though.

Isn't Chakotay's rank Full Cmdr?

Aban: Torres and Tom were both JG Lt. In one episode (I think it was "Faces") Tom said to Torres that he outranked her. This might be due to seniority, or his command position, or that she's Maquis, or something.

Keep in mind that Sisko was only Cmdr when he got the Defiant.

If anything, sappy Kim deserves a promotion.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Chakotay wears a Lt. Cdr. Maquis pin, or he does according to the Encyclopedia's chart. But bear in mind that:

a) We haven't and can't see any Maquis pics higher than his.
b) The Encyclopaedia is notoriously sh*te at things like this - see some of the mistakes in Starfleet rank insignia. . .

Chakotay has only ever been called a Commander, but then there are two ways of mentioning the rank:

1. Casual - "as you were, Commander."
2. Formal - "this is my first officer, Lieutenant Commander Spock."

Note that Spock WAS a Lt. Cdr in the first season of TOS. . . he had the rank insignia, and I'm fairly certain Kirk did refer to his full rank on more than one occasion.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Chakotay's insignia has two gold bars and one black bar, so that probably signifies a Lt. Commander rank.

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"Stuff" - Nobody

Posted by Saboc on :

I think I left out another deserve-to-have-a-promotion officer: Dr. Bashir. I think he's been a lieutenant since the beginning of the show.
I was really happy that Nog got promoted to lieutenant jr. It scares me sometimes to think that Nog outrank chief O'brain...lol

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Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Exactly. And I think - but like I say I'm not sure - Torres has one black and one gold. We've probably never even seen two black bars. . .

The whole thing always seemed a bit stupid anyway. They've always tried to play down differences between the two crews, so why give them a separate insignia system? No doubt so that, if they HAD done more than two episodes about tension between the two crews, then you'd at least be able to tell them apart.

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I mentioned Bashir in a thread in DS9 just today. He's gone from JG to Full Lt. which isn't too bad for 7 years of frontier medicine.

And the Nog thing COULD be considered a spoiler. Be careful.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Dax: I'd forgotten about Sisko and the Defiant. However, I would argue that that was a special situation. He probably should've been promoted then and there.

As for Nog's myriad promotions, did he ever actually graduate from the Academy? All I remember is that they made him an Ensign before a big battle. I always thought it was a temporary rank or something. And even if he did, he made Lt. JG in like under a year. WAY too fast.

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"Resolve and thou art free."

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Chokotays situation seems to be similar to Tuvoks during the first couple seasons. He wears the insignia for one rank, but is constantly referred to as another (Tuvok was always called Lt. before his promotion, regardless of his LT CMDrs pips). True the casual address for a Lt. CMDR is just plain old commander but I know there have been examples of late of situations where his full rank should have been said and he was still called CMDR. Unfortunately I cannot remember a specific example.

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

In current (and presumably 23/24th century) naval parlance, the commander of any vessel big enough to be considered a "ship" (Don't ask -- it varies, probably more in Trek than now) is the "Captain" of that vessel regardless of his rank. Technically, a ship's commander (even if he's only an ensign) outranks anyone aboard his vessel (even an admiral), unless they are directly in his chain-of-command, and he still has some authority over them except in specific situations.

In the U.S. military just before WW II, there were very few promotions available. It was not uncommon for an officer to graduate from an academy, make 1st Lieutenant (or naval LtJG) and stay there for the duration of their career. I am reminded of the episode (can't remember the name of it) where Picard "died" and Q gave him a chance to relive his life all over again. He wound up a Lieutenant aboard the Enterprise D, with a reputation for being cautious.

Apparently Starfleet doesn't use "high year of tenure" (a maximum amount of time you are allowed to serve before you either make rank or are forced out). I suspect that either Data does not wish to be promoted or someone in Starfleet with influence over the promotion process doesn't want to see Data make Captain. If I'm not mistaken, there have been a number of instances where Data has been cited for exemplary performance, so if promotion was based even partially upon the individual's service record, I would think he'd have been up for promotion years ago.

--Baloo

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It is far less important to agree than it is to understand.
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Tapestry is the episode.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I thought Bashier made Lt. Cmdr...

And in 24th, they do call their commanding officer "Captain". They made a point of it somewhere midway through the war arc.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I believe it was when Dax was in charge of the Defiant. Someone (might even have been Sisko) referred to her as "Captain". Nog balked at this and O'Brien explained that naval tradition is that the commanding officer is called "Captain" regardless of technical rank. This was when Nog asked if he would be called "Captain" if he ended up in charge. O'Brien told him that, by the time he would be in command, there'd be no-one left to call him "Captain".

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"Alright, so it's impossible. How long will it take?"
-Commander Adams, Forbidden Planet

Posted by Saboc on :

I wonder who is the president of the Federation now. In one of the DS9 episodes, I think I heard Dr.Bashir said something about "the former president.."
Anyway, how long does it take for an ensign to become captain. I mean just regular ensigns not Romulan-warbird-sized-ego-like-Riker ensigns.
I think Picard made captain when he was only a lieutenant. And that Captain Scott is or rather was the youngest officer to have made captain in such a short time. Right?

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-Surak: "Nothing unreal exists"
-Spock: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom..."

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Scott?! Er, hardly. He's older than Kirk or Spock yet wasn't a Captain until much later. Kirk was at the time the youngest starship captain. . .

Posted by Saboc on :

This is the third time I tried to post my message. I don't why my message cannot be posted. The computer said that the message was being successfully posted. But when I went back and check, it wasn't there. I am so frustrated...

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-Surak: "Nothing unreal exists"
-Spock: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom..."

Posted by Saboc on :

testing..testing...1 2 3

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-Surak: "Nothing unreal exists"
-Spock: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom..."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

You must press "reload" button, grasshopper. Apparently yours is a computer (or browser) which does not refresh automatically.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Baloo and I have been reading the same books

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited November 16, 1999).]

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

First One is correct, at the time, Kirk was the youngest. There was a reference to a woman in TNG timeframe, who was the youngest ever then. She turned out to be controled by aliens.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Saboc on :

Wait, Captain Scott (the woman) made captain before or after she was controlled by the alien?

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-Surak: "Nothing unreal exists"
-Spock: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom..."

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Was her name Scott?

*checks*

Huh. You're right. Tryla Scott. Actually, the encyclopedia doesn't mention any rank for her. It just says that she was the youngest to ever earn a command.

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"And if we weren't good to you, Dave, you shouldn't take it all the way to your grave."
--
Will Rigby