Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Admirals and Starbases

This is topic Admirals and Starbases in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/265.html

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I've noticed that for every Starbase, there is an admiral in command. Also, there is a Admiral in command of Deep Space 3. Usually there is an Admiral in every important space facility, this probably includes Earth Station McKinley, and Utopia Planitia.

So how come it seems that DS9 is the only station in which there is only a Captain aboard. Given the importance of the station, you'd wonder why they wouldn't send an Admiral up there to facilitate operations there.

Suggestions? Theories?

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

My Theory is that Starbases are usually given to Admirals because they are usually bases of command for Fleets for example Starbase 375 is the Base of the 7th Fleet (Right?)

Well i think that most other stations which arnt Bases of Operations for Fleets are given to Captains and Commanders .

And wasent Admiral Ross Stationed at Starbase 375 ? im not really sure.

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2/

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited January 08, 2000).]

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

I would imagine that only certain starbases have admirals in command of them, starbases that command a fleet or something similar. If not, then this would imply that we have at least 500 admirals in charge of the same number of Federaton starbases. And I remember that a commander was in charge of Starbase 74.

Wasn't Nimoy's wife in charge of Starbase 375 before Admiral Ross?

------------------
Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, admirals don't usually command ships, and they can't all be based at HQ or the Academy. So, what do you do w/ the leftovers? Put them on starbases. What starbases do you put them on? The ones in the Federation core, because they're going to want to have the nice, easy jobs close to home. Who commands the bases farther out? Captains and commanders. Why was an admiral at SB375 during the war? Because it was a war. Things had to change.

------------------
"...more people buy Harry Potter novels than the works of Alexander Pope, but that's no measure of their quality."
-Tom Aylward-Nally, December 29, 1999

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

And, strictly speaking, is Deep Space 9 a Starbase? I mean, if it was, why have a seperate classification for "Deep Space Station"?

------------------
"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

What's the difference between a Deep Space Station and a Starbase, anyway?

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

A deep space station lies on the edges of known space... usually in non-Federation territory... starbases are in Federation territory - usually well with-in its bounds... or so I say

Remember that the officer in charge of the Remler Array was that small-talkier Commander.

------------------
"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

That is also borne out by the classification of "Deep Space station K-7" back in TOS. It was a border post to the klingon empire. The fact the Klingons laid claim to shore leave there, also suggests it was only Federation-administered for some unknown race whose system it was in.

------------------
"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

There is an Admiral Marcus Holt which is stationed at Deep Space 3. I would imagine that Deep Space Stations have the same importance as Starbases.

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited January 09, 2000).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Perhaps, as an additonal criterium, DSSs must be located so they're not in orbit of a planet or whatever, seeing as there were many starbases on the border in TNG's time; but I suppose the first hour of DS9 vetoes that.

------------------
Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

There are also starbases that are actually on planets. Farpoint Station was on whatever planet the Bandi city was on.

Also, remember in All Good Things, the future Adm. Riker was on a starbase. Course, then he shows up on the Ent D and says she's his ship. I don't know. I'd guess that Admirals have a lot of leeway in where they serve. We've also heard of Admirals aboard ships during both of the Borg invasions. Of course, they were in direct command of those fleets at the time.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I'm guessing that Admirals can have Starships assigned to their space stations - like Admiral Ross's Intrepid... also - does that mean that Admiral Ross was on an Intrepid during WYLB?

------------------
"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Admiral is only one rank higher than a captain, so there's little difference who you put in charge on a starship. I think that in an emergency, they just get all the commanders, captains and admirals they can get and put them on a starship to fight.

------------------
So small,
So innocent, so young, So delicately done
Grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

You mean the Bellerephon? Guess that could be his ship. He used in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" and people claim that in "What you leave behind" Admiral Ross' bridge looks that of an Intrepid-class ship. So if it is his flagship of the 7th fleet, where is in the shots of Starbase 375? I assume it's with the 7th fleet being commanded by the XO and that Ross only goes on it for major battles. That also seems to be a trend we've seen, there was an admiral present at Wolf 359 and the Borg battle at Sector 001.

------------------
Calvin: "You don't think humans evolved from monkeys?"
Hobbes: "I sure don't see any difference."
Federation Starship Datalink - Starship site of the new millennium.

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited January 10, 2000).]

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Maybe some starbases rather serve for administrational purposes which usually an admiral is in charge of. This seems to be the case with SB 375 which is the supply and command center for Starfleet in the Bajor sector. As for starbase 74, maybe there is an admiral as supreme commander and administrator, and a commander rank as acting commander.

------------------
"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, Prakesh, a one-pip Admiral is only one rank above a Captain. But there are 2, 3 and 4 pip admirals out there too.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Here is a slightly modified rank representation, of which the original can be found at SMR. I changed it to reflect the ranks that I think are used.

------------------
Chris's Home Page
The Psi Corps is your friend. Trust the Corps.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

"I assume it's with the 7th fleet being commanded by the XO and that Ross only goes on it for major battles."

I believe that this is true: that the Admiral always has some sort of right hand man (maybe two) piloting his starship. I believe that Admiral Leighton's ship was the Lakota, and Captain Benteen (who was Leighton's assistant) took over command to take on the Defiant. Also, Admiral Kirk probably had Captain Spock as his assistant commanding the Enterprise back in STII.

------------------
I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

That seems to be a viable theory Tahna Los.

------------------
new siggy coming soon.

Posted by Gepta001 (Member # 231) on :

mabey it doesn't matter what rank was in charge of DS9 because it wasn't federation owned? wasn't DS9 a Bajoran claimed station? I could be wrong.

-FTM

------------------
funniest TV quote.....

"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

DS9 is a Bajoran station administered by the Federation.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Fabrux: It's "Commodore", not "Commadore".

------------------
"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Tahna: Actually, I believe that Spock was an instructor at the Academy at this point and that the Enterprise was assigned to training duty. I could be wrong.

The issue with the position of commodore. I talked to my uncle (a retired U.S. Navy captain) about this. If I understood him correctly, Commodore is a position, not a rank. Commodor is like fleet captain. It simply means someone in charge of a fleet of ships. It could be an Admiral or a captain. I guess it could be someone of a lower rank too although I would doubt this position would be assigned to a lower ranking officer. Picard served as a commodore during the Romulan blockade in TNG. We haven't even heard the term Commodore used as a starfleet rank or position since TOS. In short, I believe the one pip rank shown in the chart should be listed as "Admiral" and the four pip rank should be "fleet admiral"

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Commodores were originally the lowest flag officer rank (not position). Basically they were what is now called a Rear Admiral (Lower Half). As for the current state of the Commodore title, I had heard something akin to what you said and that it was used only during times of war. Now I personally believe that RADM (Lower Half) in a stupid rank and I am rather fond of the rank Commodore, so until we see a one star admiral on trek feferred to as an admiral, I will continue to believe that the rank Commodore is still used.

Sol: Deep Space Station is obviously just a special designation for certain starbases (could be ones lying outside of Fed borders although I find this unlikely). Sisko has referred to it as Starbase Deep Space Nine more than once.

[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited January 11, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Perhaps Starbase indicates a base that has defense and repair facilities. "Space station" or "deep space station" could refer to outposts that have no such facilities like Regula One which was a research facility and K-7 which was basically a storage and administration outpost.

Remember the ep where Bajor almost entered the Federation but then Sisko freaked out and had those visions? The admiral that came to the station was referred to as an Admiral, and I thought he only had one pip. I could very easily be wrong.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited January 11, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

He had four, actually. Although it's appropriate to refer to a Commodore as "Admiral" in any case, generally.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

TSN: Fixed it.

------------------
Chris's Home Page
The Psi Corps is your friend. Trust the Corps.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Wasn't the Admiral in "The Pegasus" a single-pipper?

------------------
"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by Gepta001 (Member # 231) on :

in the old series where was the indication of rank located?

------------------
funniest TV quote.....

"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii

Posted by Gepta001 (Member # 231) on :

oh and has there ever been a reason given for the change from gold to red as command? I don't remember seeing any rank insignia's on TOS?

------------------
funniest TV quote.....

"A small penis is a clean penis"
-Matt Real World Hawaii

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

In the TOS the Commodores always had that muti color star where the comm badge is now, I think Commodore is just a temp position for when theres alot of people of the same rank and they need to choose a leader for example the recent Equinox Episodes of VOY , Janeway said that in a situation where 2 or more SF ships have lost their Commander are in position where they cant speak to Sf Command the Captain of the Ship with Tactical Superiourity is given command of the fleet maybe Commodore is a position given to that Captain with tactical Superiority.

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2/

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Tim: He had two, actually.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie

Posted by Lt. Tom on :

Marc: In TOS, rank was indicated by stripes on the sleeves. I don't think any reason has been given for any of the uniform color changes. Remember that the TWOK uniforms had their own departmental colors that are completely different than those seen in TOS or TNG/DS9/VOY, too.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Well, remember that DS9 wasn't exactly a plum assignment. In fact, it was a bit of a shit-hole, populated by fresh-faced academy graduates, and drunken Irishmen.

Now, the station did become more important with the wormhole, but by that time the Bajorans had acccepted Sisko as their emmisary. It would have been hard to remove him. However, as he notched up successes, and with the discovery of the dominion, they deceided to keep him there and promote him. It's likely that if he had done an appalling job commanding the station for the first few years, eh would have been replaced, emmissary or not, with the importance of the dominion, by an Admiral.

------------------
"Sorry Wendy, I just can't trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die."

Mr Garrison

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Also noteworthy is that there already WAS a starbase in the area, namely SB 375. Admirals Rollman and later Ross were probably controlling all sorts of Starfleet activities in the region from there. That facility was most likely much better equipped to support starships (DS9 at best probably could give a starship crew some coffee - everything else was flowing from the ships to the station).

Perhaps Rollman and later Ross were "sector commanders" in charge of the Bajor sector, and one flag officer was sufficient for that entire sector even though there may have been several Starfleet ships and installations in the area. And just like flagships with an admiral aboard probably have separate captains, with the admiral just a "passenger", these starbases probably have captains or commanders of their own in command, letting the admiral command the entire sector, or an entire fleet of starships.

One might assume that there were unseen captains in command of the Bellerophon when Ross was aboard, in command of SB375 when Ross was there, and in command of those ships and installations even when Ross was elsewhere. Conversely, there probably was an unseen admiral aboard the huge starbase 74 in TNG "11001001", but the commanding officer of the station was a mere commander by rank.

DS9 would thus normally easily make do with a commander or a captain in charge, but would with minor effort be converted to a base of operations for General Martok in charge of the 9th Fleet, and would temporarily also serve as a base for admiral Ross. DS3 mentioned in "Interface", with an admiral Holt aboard, probably also had a captain or commander in charge of the station affairs and Holt performing flag duties.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

What Starbase was Admiral Alynna Necheyev assigned to?

------------------
"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Was she, even? I didn't think so...

------------------
"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Nechayev seemed to roam the length of the Cardassian Demilitarized Zone ("Journey's End", "Preemptive Strike", "The Maquis", also spotted in "Descent"). Either she was in command of that specific sector, or of a fleet tasked with patrolling that sector.

Since Nechayev operated concurrently with Rollman/Ross, one might say that the DMZ spans several sectors and Nechayev commanded one that did not include Bajor, but did include parts of the Badlands and the Maquis movement. She only visited DS9 when the Maquis affair spilled over to that sector (and possibly walked over Rollman there?). Admiral Kennelly is another of those flag folks mentioned directly in connection with the Cardassian affair ("Ensign Ro"), as is Adm. Chekote ("The Siege"). IIRC, all are three-pippers, that is, Vice Admirals by rank. Or was Kennelly a two-pipper?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Actually, In "The Search, part 2" Nechayev showed up in the hallucination the Vorta gave the crew members and Sisko fully believed it. Perhaps Nechayev outranks some of the other Admirals we've seen involved in the Bajor area.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

(Final Chapter Spoilers are pretty much moot today, but I'll warn you anyway. There are Final Chapter Spoilers ahead. There.)

I've always had the pet theory that "Fleet Admiral" was in fact not a rank, but more of a position analagous to "Staff Sergeant" in a small police dept. Presumably rotated through the masses of senior Vice-Admirals and Admirals, positions as Fleet Admirals would mean a job overseeing a general region of the Federation encompassing several dozen sectors, kinda like Supreme Allied Commander in Europe vs. Supreme Allied Commander in the Pacific, to draw on WWII/Cold War metaphor. At a guess, the UFP might have about a dozen Fleet Admirals or so; one for the Cardassian frontier, one for the Romulan end of things, one for the inner core, etc. Nechayev, who held that actual rank of Vice Admiral, got the job of Fleet Admiral responsible for the Cardassian/Bajoran/Badlands/DMZ region sometime after Descent and presumably remained there for a few years at least.

Similarly, Nakamura(?), the Admiral in AGT... was called Fleet Admiral in AGT.. while wearing a four-pip rank, IIRC, and seemed to be in charge of the Neutral Zone. He had appeared once or twice before then and wasn't given the same treatment.

In "Redemption, Part II" we got Fleet Admiral Shanthi (who wore Vice Admiral pips), apparently running the Klingon and/or Romulan area and pretty much able to authorize a full military blockade without much trouble.

The point has come up that Vice Admiral Ross seemed to have a rather inordinate amount of power over the whole allied war effort in the latter stages of the Dominion War. Perhaps at this point he was holding the Fleet Admiral position for that neck of the woods, and because it was one of the hotter fronts in the war (as well as the site of the eventual invasion) he ended up being quite the head honcho in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, the real reason we see so many damn Vice Admirals is because the costume dept. apparently has no shortage of triple pips but only a few pairs of fours and twos. A letter-writing campaign to Bob Blackman is in order, perhaps?

------------------
The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

To follow up on The Tom's latest comment, it has always annoyed me that there are so few one pip flag officers (whatever you wish to call them). If one were to look in the United States Code (sorry I couldn't find it online right this second), you will notice it states in the military law section that no more than 50% of all flag officers in a branch of service may be of a rank higher than one star. If this dictate were to to be followed only half-way by Trek we would have seen far fewer multi-pipped officers. Again, as The Tom said, it is probably the constuming department's obsession with making every actor look as dramatic and important as possible, although in my opinion they have overkilled so much as to make it look foolish to make a less-than-two-pipped person.

------------------
"Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."

"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."

-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Well, considering we've never, ever, seen a one-pip flag officer, it stands to reason that it just doesn't exist. IMHO, though, we should see more two-pips that we currently do.

------------------
The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Uh... We've also never seen most ranks of enlisted crew. Are you going to say the only ones that really exist are SCPO and "crewman"?

It wouldn't make any sense to start counting admirals at two stars and skip over one. If they did that, they'd make all the bi-pippers into mono-pippers, all the triples into duals, and all the Big Fours into Little Threes.

------------------
"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'm all with Tom in saying that Fleet Admiral in TNG is a position, not a rank. But I'd drop the position down one prestige notch, from future "CinCLant" or "SACEur" to simple "Admiral in command of one Fleet". We have seen the commanders of various Fleets (3rd, 9th, one other in the same room in "Favor the Bold"!). They have consistently worn the three pips of Vice Admiral, an apt flag rank for the commander of a fleet.

Nechayev could have been in command of 8th Fleet, tasked with defending the Cardassian border region during TNG and also sending ships like the Agamemnon to hunt the Borg in "Descent". The 9th Fleet would also move in the region, so sometimes Ross or his predecessor would be present instead of Nechayev. Starbase 375, a smallish and perhaps poorly equipped outpost, would serve as the temporary HQ of the Fleet in the region, while the 9th Fleet would appropriate DS9 for similar use.

The commander of the Fleet present in a certain region would be the top diplomat and Fed representative, explaining the appearances of Ross and Nechayev in crucial conferences instead of any of the Earth big wigs or four-pippers. Rollman could be the predecessor to Ross, and admirals Colti or Whatley from "Rapture" could have inherited the 8th from Nechayev, or headed other fleets (or then ceremonies of a planet joining the Federation require desk pilots from Earth while peace negotiations and the like do not).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Actually, do we have any evidence that Starfleet was organized by fleets outside of wartime? I mean the Ent D was never attatched to a fleet and I don't recall the term ever being mentioned during TNG.

I like the Tom's idea of Fleet Admiral being a position. It makes perfect sense. Didn't Admiral Frog-in-his-throat from Insurrection have only two pips? This would make perfect sence due to the fact that he was only in charge of a single planetary operation that might only involve a few ships and an outpost, not an entire fleet of ships.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Concerning admiral ranks, it would make no sense to have no "single star" admirals (commodores/rear admirals [lower half]/whatever), since it would leave a hole in the command structure that the ranks represent. If there were no admirals of that rank, though, the other ranks wouldn't "move down" in their insignia, since then the system wouldn't work either (I mean, you could, but it would cause confusion).

Again, the reason we haven't seen any commodores is probably because they're out commanding flotillas and such, and we rarely see a small group of ships together.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

But Frank, we haven't even heard the term "commodore" mentioned in passing for 12 years! TPTB have repeated many times that it's fallen out of use by the TNG era, and therefore the writers don't use it, ever.

One could theorize the one-pip flag pin was used by commodores from the introduction of rank pips in '48 or so until the phasing out of the rank (and the pip) several years later.

------------------
The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Who's to say it's not around now due to the DW? Makes sense that they'd have commodores commanding small groups of ships for hit-and-run raids against Dominion supply bases, etc.

------------------
Chris's Home Page
The Psi Corps is your friend. Trust the Corps.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, the rank could use the current US terminology instead. Either way, it's the same rank, and there's no reason why it wouldn't be used.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie

Posted by Marko Latin on :

Where is admiral Ross currently stationed?

------------------
Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

What, you mean post-DS9?

------------------
"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.