Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Universal Translators

This is topic Universal Translators in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/367.html

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

I'm not asking so much as how they work, but when they work. Whenever we see an alien we assume he's speaking his native language even though we hear him speaking english. I can accept this, besides I'd rather not have to read subtitles all the time and it'd be a challenge to always come up with a new language every week. So then why is it if we see an alien speaking english then suddenly say some quote or phrase in their own language? Shouldn't what they say also be picked up by the translator?

I know this is a stupid technical question, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this.

------------------
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you."
Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Actually, it is not a very stupid technical question

Often enough we heared Worf speak Klingon to other characters which was somehow "skipped" by the translator as if it was a selective device with some kind of "intelligent" reasoning logic to determine if something needed to be translated or not. Heck, the UT is one of those technologies which has simply not been explained in detail so we don't know how it functions.

------------------
"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

Also interesting: it is often assumed that the translation to English is 'superimposed' over the voice of the speaker. So we would hear something like two people talking at the same time: the original language, and the translation. Thus, the UT must also be able to 'take out' the original speech. Something like this is already possible in 20th century tech: a device picks up the sound and creates an 'anti-sound', which has an inverse amplitude.

Anyway, we should see clearly that the translation is dubbed over the original speech - we see lips moving asynchronous with what we actually hear - but we don't. Wonder how they fixed that with the UT?

------------------
"Alpha Centauri is a beautiful place to visit, you ought to see it" - Kirk to 1969 USAF officer Fellini, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (TOS)

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

To make matters worse, didn't the original series say the the UT worked by reading brain waves? Now this would explain why the device can reason as to whether or not you want to be heard in your native tongue or have the words translated, but the TNG era has seemed to suggest that it is a simple translation device based on algorhythms and speech patters.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

I always assumed that Worf spoke english.. He was raised by humans, after all. And I think maybe most of the higer-up Klingons that we see probably speak english as well. Just as a courtesy to the Feds, I guess. Of course the Feds could learn to speak Klingon, too....

------------------
Falls don't hurt. It's the sudden stop when you reach the bottom that hurts.

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

Also wouldn't Federation crews be required to learn English, since if their translators broke there would be no way to communicate with the other crewmembers who didn't speak English.

------------------
Klingons never do anything small, eh Worf? -Commander Riker,
Star Trek: Insurrection

http://www.huntel.net/massa/StarTrek/index.html

Posted by grb on :

It seems like a good idea for them to learn some common lagnuage, which doesn't nesscarily have to be english.

------------------

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

...usually referred to as "Federation Standard".

------------------
"This is Major Tom to ground control. I'm stepping through the door, and I'm floating in a most peculiar way. And the stars look very different today..."
-David Bowie, "Space Oddity"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Of course, we see things like Picard saying, "In English, Data!" and Kira and Dax having discussions about English colloquial phrases.

------------------
June is National Accordion Awareness Month.
"Have you heard Alanis Morisette trying to play the harmonica? She doesn't know how to play the harmonica. Well guess what, Alanis, I INVENTED the 'don't-know-how-to-play-harmonica-harmonica-solo.'" - John Flansburgh

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I agree that English is not only the language we hear, but actually the language that is spoken in Starfleet, also by Worf.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

If we assume that universal translators are in some sort of an "idle mode" when a discussion is being held mainly in English, then lots of things are explained:

-Klingons can "surprise" the sleeping UT with a couple of native words
-Picard can curse in French (French is a "foreign language" to the E-D computer, as per "11001001")
-Sisko can chant in Bajoran

Why would the UT have an "idle mode"? Perhaps this is an artifact of the necessity of leaving proper names (like Son'a or Bajor, which might actually have literal translations, like "Earth" might translate to "dirt") and culture-specific concepts (like Gul, which apparently doesn't correspond exactly to Captain) untranslated. The UT errs on the side of caution when it notices that a speaker suddenly switches languages.

Examples of "errors" resulting from this: Picard and Worf are speaking English and suddenly Worf curses in Klingonese, so we hear a Klingon curse in the middle of English. Or then Sisko speaks English and Kira Bajoran, and suddenly Sisko recites a Bajoran poem in Bajoran, so we hear a bit of Bajoran in the middle of English.

Of course, it doesn't explain why "non-sudden" bouts of Klingonese don't get translated better. But non-sudden cases are relatively few: we usually hear a lot of Klingonese only when *everybody* present is speaking that language, so we may assume that our very own UT has simply decided to translate to that language to please the vocal majority.

In any case, the "idle mode" theory would allow for everybody to speak their native language and not English - for example, Bashir might mainly speak Arabic or Farsi or something. If the majority speaks English nevertheless, all the better...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

Fabrux: High Klingons are indeed able to speak English. In ST6, there's a scene where (presumably high) Klingons discuss tactical matters with Azetbur. We hear some nice Klingon chatter (fortunately subtitled...), and suddenly Azetbur speaks English. The other Klingons appearently understand her.
Why English should be spoken on a 100%-Klingon meeting, is another question.

------------------
"Alpha Centauri is a beautiful place to visit, you ought to see it" - Kirk to 1969 USAF officer Fellini, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (TOS)

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I really doubt that the Terrans could convince the other Federation members to make English their standard. For one thing why would the Vulcans agree to use such an illogical language?

I think the references we hear to "English" aren't actually such. We just hear the word "English" from the TV so that it fits the fact that the language we're hearing is English. If we could actually hear the characters speaking Federation Standard, Picard would have said the FS equivalent of "In Standard, Data!".

------------------
"I know the whole bible! The New and Used Testaments!"
-Thurgood Stubbs, The PJs

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Yes, but how about when Kira and Dax had an extensive discussion of the phrase, "flying by the seat of our pants"?

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

Of course I could start out by saying it's just a show and nothing's perfect, but I think this is a cool conversation. I think Aban was right when the original UT works on brain waves (Which allows it to distinguish what the speaker is trying to say). In DS9, we saw Quark working on his own UT, which was implanted in his head. He wasn't able to understand the English spoken to him, and the Americans couldn't understand the Ferengi language. It probably helps them understand outside languages, as well as help them converse in the foreign languages themselves (by helping them put their words in the foreign language for them to speak.) This doesn't make them learn the new language, just the pronunciation of what they need to say(which covers the "bad lip-synch" theory). The more they grow accustomed to being told what to speak, the faster and easier they become, soon being able to speak English Fluently without knowing the English Language.

Alpha Centauri- The ST6 scene you were referring to was probably a Viewer Translation effect, much like the Captain's Cabin scene in Hunt for Red October. Give the viewer a minute or two in the native language, so they know the basis of the conversation (Of course if a foreigner entered the room, the conversation would revert back to Klingon to accomodate the difference in languages for the viewer.) and then speak in the viewer's language to help the viewer keep with the story and the feeling of the scene (which is really hard when you have to keep reading. Really, would hunt for Red October be better if half the spoken lines were in Russian?)

The UT is based on speech algorithms and patterns, and it uses these to translate. Isn't this how we originally translated each other's language in the first place ("You keep saying 'hola' whenever we meet, does that mean 'hello'?") The UT works the same way. It is just more advanced to be able to used in everyday life.

We already have the technology where the computer can tell such traits as sarcasm and lying. Who's to say that someday down the road, a small computer chip in our heads can tell what we want to say, how we want to say it, and omit or translate in the ways we want it to?

Of course the Federation officers all know English (or Federation Standard). This is like how all of our militaries know English (for English-speaking countries, other languages for other countries). Wars would be that much harder when you need translators. Higher officials know English, because that gives them an advantage (Always an advantage when you understand what your enemy is saying, yet they don't understand all you may say.)
------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

[This message has been edited by Saiyanman Benjita (edited June 07, 2000).]

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Here's a wrench in the proverbial machine...

Everyone remember that scene in a Jack Pack ep where they're examining a conference with Weyoun? Jack tells the computer to make Weyoun repeat his last statement in Dominionese, which he does.

------------------
Falls don't hurt. It's the sudden stop when you reach the bottom that hurts.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Hey, that reminds me...I should dig out that episode and do some language analysis.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Frank: Who's to say that particualr idiom didn't end up getting passed down to Standard? Or, more likely, the Standard phrase is probably slightly different, but, since it was being translated back into English for us, it went back to the original idiom, rathern than a literal translation.

Fabrux: What's wrong w/ that? What they were saying is that, if you look at what someone is saying in their own language, you can get a better idea of their meaning than if you take the UT's translation. This makes perfect sense. We even know that in todays languages, there are subtle nuances that are lost when translating. Unless you're simply pointing out that this proves Weyoun was talking in Dominionese and relying upon the translator to make his speech known to everyone else. I don't recall to whom he was speaking at the time. However, if there were people from more than one race, how would he pick which of their languages to speak? He wouldn't. He would just use his own. And, for that matter, since it was an official Dominion function, it would make sense for them to conduct it in Dominionese.

------------------
"I know the whole bible! The New and Used Testaments!"
-Thurgood Stubbs, The PJs

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I think Weyoun was talking to a Cardassian (Damar?).
About the UT, it is probably fitted with a sophisticated Dramatic Plot Inducer, just like transporters, cloaking devices and anything related to time travel.

------------------
If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me.
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.
-Tool, "Opiate"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

*finds another spanner, and lets rip*

What about Muniz's Spanish babbling in 'The Ship', eh?

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

And then there's the scene in ST3 where Chekov spoke in Russian to Scotty, which always confused me...

------------------
Falls don't hurt. It's the sudden stop when you reach the bottom that hurts.

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Or how about Chekov speaking Russian in Generations on the E-B about not having a medical staff yet.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Simple answer: Technobabble.

------------------
Ex-Admin at the TrekBBS.com

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Maybe all the UT algorithms wasn't installed until Tuesday?

------------------
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you."
Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Well how about this, how does the translator compensate for the sound wave eminating from a persons mouth. In reality we should hear someone speak in (SAY) dominionese, there would be a pause, at which point the translator should spew out the english version. This would of course make discussion very hard over multiple comm links as there would be MANY sounds to compensate for. Irritating to say the least.

I've got a different idea, however. Someone stated before that these translators were linked to the brain? What if, the translator is linked to the brain, then as a person speaks it detects the language the person wishes to converse in and their message. As it does this is actually (through the brain) gives that persons vocal muscles the right impulses to speak the language they wish to communicate in? For instance, if I were to speak to someone in Chinese, but I did not know the language, the translator would control my vocal functions whilst my mouth mind still thinks in english? As for why they are then worn on the jacket, some sort of radiation?

This would also explain the changes in language, the relative colloqualisms. As for Muniez, perhaps he babbled in spanish because under the pain he reverted to his home tongue. How would a translator know any different?

------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".

Wise, wise words.

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

Yeah, I came through with that possibility. However, don't the Fed's also have implants like the Ferengi did? I thought everyone had one. The ones on the communicators are probably back ups, or more simple versions. For instance, In ST6, they had to speak Klingonese without the help of the UT (because it can be detected) and it was extremely hard. However it probably sounds more true to form when you have to voluntarily learn and speak the language, rather than have the UT do it for you (you may get a weird accent when your mouth is moving involuntarily to your knowing.)

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

See I think there are many forms of the UT used in the ST world. These are the three I see most, but there may be more.

1. The Ship's Universal Translator: Used to broadcast a message in multiple translations (For instance, When you meet a new race, the UT broadcasts an extraordinary number of known and possible languages in hopes to get a response.) Also used to translate incoming messages, to alleviate the need for further UT use on the ship. This is a very generic, and normally not extremely accurate, but the language range is expansive. (See-"Shaka, when the Walls Fell") The previous example of ST6, this cannot be used because it would probably be a mechanized voice (or Majel Barrett's voice, which the Klingons would recognize immediately).
Most likely used much like the UN radios (but without the need for human translators)

2. Device UT's: Built into devices such as communicators, tricorders, and other mechanics. Like the Ship's UT, this is very computerized. Communicator UT's are less language-expansive than ship's UT (Library computer access helps a lot.), but are more portable. If you are on a planet, and meet a new species, you may want to learn how to basically communicate. Not for extensive conversational use, but could communicate with personal UT's to allow the speaker to talk more fluently.

3. Personal UT's: Much like the ones the Ferengi displayed in the Roswell episode. Obviously works like my previous statement, for The Ferengi couldn't speak English without them, and couldn't understand English the same. Probably has a limited number of languages programmed, but would have the ability to learn new language (probably by communicating with ship/device UT's which have more ability to translate accurately, but cannot be used on a person to person conversation.) Could be used with brain waves to force speaker to speak in the language of the listener. Upside is a more personal conversation, downside is that only one language may be spoken at a time. The brain also communicates so that if you wish to speak in a different language, without translation, you may "shut it off". Examples are like the such where Chekov spouts a Russian word, or Worf swears. They do not wish to be translated, so they communicate with their UT (via brain waves, which travel faster than sound, allowing them to switch between languages in split-seconds).

All these translators have the downside of sounding too mechanical or forced (as said before, if you know what you are speaking and know the accent, you can speak in the language easier and they would understand you better.) The Universal Translator may spout more literal translations ("I going to school" - many languages omit the verb "to be" from their scentences.)
We can tell if a spoken part is forced, or real, and as stated before in the ST6 reference, the Klingons may know the Majel Barrett Computer Voice and instantly recognize the Universal Translator as a Federation ship, however, a passing merchant who speaks little Klingonese, but speaks it without use of UT may be allowed to pass.

These three types of translators have their own places in the Star Trek World, but work together to translate the different languages, and make the world even more astounding.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Of course, this still doesn't explain how the UT can immediately start translating a language the first time it ever hears it. The only time this issue was ever addressed was in the DS9 ep w/ that one race (the Skreeea?) whose language the UT took a long time to figure out. Other than that, totally new people show up and the UT just starts translating away, even though nobody in the Federation even knew the language existed before.

------------------
"Are you alright? You sure? 'Cause you just went through a wall."
-Detective Drycoff, Gone in 60 Seconds

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

The only explanation is that the UT, powered through the ship, has a processing speed thousands of times greater than what we have today. So it may take a second to process the necessary speach patterns and come up with a viable match, whereas it would take years for us today. And of course some languages are simpler than others. For instance, English is probably one of the most complicated languages on Earth (and people still insist on using it.) Spanish, French, and Italian are far simpler, and some African languages are extremely simple.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, English is complicated in spelling and syntax, but probably not grammar. French is painful. For easy-learning, you'd probably need to go to Esperanto/Ido.

------------------
June is National Accordion Awareness Month.
"And as we all know, 454 Okudagrams equals an Okudapound." - Rick Sternbach