posted
I'm not asking so much as how they work, but when they work. Whenever we see an alien we assume he's speaking his native language even though we hear him speaking english. I can accept this, besides I'd rather not have to read subtitles all the time and it'd be a challenge to always come up with a new language every week. So then why is it if we see an alien speaking english then suddenly say some quote or phrase in their own language? Shouldn't what they say also be picked up by the translator?
I know this is a stupid technical question, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this.
------------------ "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you." Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Actually, it is not a very stupid technical question
Often enough we heared Worf speak Klingon to other characters which was somehow "skipped" by the translator as if it was a selective device with some kind of "intelligent" reasoning logic to determine if something needed to be translated or not. Heck, the UT is one of those technologies which has simply not been explained in detail so we don't know how it functions.
------------------ "Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
Alpha Centauri
Usually seen somewhere in the Southern skies
Member # 338
posted
Also interesting: it is often assumed that the translation to English is 'superimposed' over the voice of the speaker. So we would hear something like two people talking at the same time: the original language, and the translation. Thus, the UT must also be able to 'take out' the original speech. Something like this is already possible in 20th century tech: a device picks up the sound and creates an 'anti-sound', which has an inverse amplitude.
Anyway, we should see clearly that the translation is dubbed over the original speech - we see lips moving asynchronous with what we actually hear - but we don't. Wonder how they fixed that with the UT?
------------------ "Alpha Centauri is a beautiful place to visit, you ought to see it" - Kirk to 1969 USAF officer Fellini, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (TOS)
posted
To make matters worse, didn't the original series say the the UT worked by reading brain waves? Now this would explain why the device can reason as to whether or not you want to be heard in your native tongue or have the words translated, but the TNG era has seemed to suggest that it is a simple translation device based on algorhythms and speech patters.
------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
posted
I always assumed that Worf spoke english.. He was raised by humans, after all. And I think maybe most of the higer-up Klingons that we see probably speak english as well. Just as a courtesy to the Feds, I guess. Of course the Feds could learn to speak Klingon, too....
------------------ Falls don't hurt. It's the sudden stop when you reach the bottom that hurts.
posted
Also wouldn't Federation crews be required to learn English, since if their translators broke there would be no way to communicate with the other crewmembers who didn't speak English.
------------------ Klingons never do anything small, eh Worf? -Commander Riker, Star Trek: Insurrection
posted
...usually referred to as "Federation Standard".
------------------ "This is Major Tom to ground control. I'm stepping through the door, and I'm floating in a most peculiar way. And the stars look very different today..." -David Bowie, "Space Oddity"
posted
Of course, we see things like Picard saying, "In English, Data!" and Kira and Dax having discussions about English colloquial phrases.
------------------ June is National Accordion Awareness Month. "Have you heard Alanis Morisette trying to play the harmonica? She doesn't know how to play the harmonica. Well guess what, Alanis, I INVENTED the 'don't-know-how-to-play-harmonica-harmonica-solo.'" - John Flansburgh
posted
If we assume that universal translators are in some sort of an "idle mode" when a discussion is being held mainly in English, then lots of things are explained:
-Klingons can "surprise" the sleeping UT with a couple of native words -Picard can curse in French (French is a "foreign language" to the E-D computer, as per "11001001") -Sisko can chant in Bajoran
Why would the UT have an "idle mode"? Perhaps this is an artifact of the necessity of leaving proper names (like Son'a or Bajor, which might actually have literal translations, like "Earth" might translate to "dirt") and culture-specific concepts (like Gul, which apparently doesn't correspond exactly to Captain) untranslated. The UT errs on the side of caution when it notices that a speaker suddenly switches languages.
Examples of "errors" resulting from this: Picard and Worf are speaking English and suddenly Worf curses in Klingonese, so we hear a Klingon curse in the middle of English. Or then Sisko speaks English and Kira Bajoran, and suddenly Sisko recites a Bajoran poem in Bajoran, so we hear a bit of Bajoran in the middle of English.
Of course, it doesn't explain why "non-sudden" bouts of Klingonese don't get translated better. But non-sudden cases are relatively few: we usually hear a lot of Klingonese only when *everybody* present is speaking that language, so we may assume that our very own UT has simply decided to translate to that language to please the vocal majority.
In any case, the "idle mode" theory would allow for everybody to speak their native language and not English - for example, Bashir might mainly speak Arabic or Farsi or something. If the majority speaks English nevertheless, all the better...
Alpha Centauri
Usually seen somewhere in the Southern skies
Member # 338
posted
Fabrux: High Klingons are indeed able to speak English. In ST6, there's a scene where (presumably high) Klingons discuss tactical matters with Azetbur. We hear some nice Klingon chatter (fortunately subtitled...), and suddenly Azetbur speaks English. The other Klingons appearently understand her. Why English should be spoken on a 100%-Klingon meeting, is another question.
------------------ "Alpha Centauri is a beautiful place to visit, you ought to see it" - Kirk to 1969 USAF officer Fellini, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (TOS)
posted
I really doubt that the Terrans could convince the other Federation members to make English their standard. For one thing why would the Vulcans agree to use such an illogical language?
I think the references we hear to "English" aren't actually such. We just hear the word "English" from the TV so that it fits the fact that the language we're hearing is English. If we could actually hear the characters speaking Federation Standard, Picard would have said the FS equivalent of "In Standard, Data!".
------------------ "I know the whole bible! The New and Used Testaments!" -Thurgood Stubbs, The PJs
posted
Yes, but how about when Kira and Dax had an extensive discussion of the phrase, "flying by the seat of our pants"?
------------------ June is National Accordion Awareness Month. "Have you heard Alanis Morisette trying to play the harmonica? She doesn't know how to play the harmonica. Well guess what, Alanis, I INVENTED the 'don't-know-how-to-play-harmonica-harmonica-solo.'" - John Flansburgh
Saiyanman Benjita
...in 2012. This time, why not the worst?
Member # 122
posted
Of course I could start out by saying it's just a show and nothing's perfect, but I think this is a cool conversation. I think Aban was right when the original UT works on brain waves (Which allows it to distinguish what the speaker is trying to say). In DS9, we saw Quark working on his own UT, which was implanted in his head. He wasn't able to understand the English spoken to him, and the Americans couldn't understand the Ferengi language. It probably helps them understand outside languages, as well as help them converse in the foreign languages themselves (by helping them put their words in the foreign language for them to speak.) This doesn't make them learn the new language, just the pronunciation of what they need to say(which covers the "bad lip-synch" theory). The more they grow accustomed to being told what to speak, the faster and easier they become, soon being able to speak English Fluently without knowing the English Language.
Alpha Centauri- The ST6 scene you were referring to was probably a Viewer Translation effect, much like the Captain's Cabin scene in Hunt for Red October. Give the viewer a minute or two in the native language, so they know the basis of the conversation (Of course if a foreigner entered the room, the conversation would revert back to Klingon to accomodate the difference in languages for the viewer.) and then speak in the viewer's language to help the viewer keep with the story and the feeling of the scene (which is really hard when you have to keep reading. Really, would hunt for Red October be better if half the spoken lines were in Russian?)
The UT is based on speech algorithms and patterns, and it uses these to translate. Isn't this how we originally translated each other's language in the first place ("You keep saying 'hola' whenever we meet, does that mean 'hello'?") The UT works the same way. It is just more advanced to be able to used in everyday life.
We already have the technology where the computer can tell such traits as sarcasm and lying. Who's to say that someday down the road, a small computer chip in our heads can tell what we want to say, how we want to say it, and omit or translate in the ways we want it to?
Of course the Federation officers all know English (or Federation Standard). This is like how all of our militaries know English (for English-speaking countries, other languages for other countries). Wars would be that much harder when you need translators. Higher officials know English, because that gives them an advantage (Always an advantage when you understand what your enemy is saying, yet they don't understand all you may say.) ------------------ Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide
[This message has been edited by Saiyanman Benjita (edited June 07, 2000).]
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