I've noticed that a � pip is usually referred to as crewman or a non-commissioned officer.
Oh BTW, welcome to Flare.
------------------ Daniel: "Senator, we have reason to believe the Goa'uld are about to attack." Kinsey: "Then I think they'll regret taking on the United States military!" Daniel: "Oh, you're right. We'll just upload a virus into the mother ship." This post sponsered in part by the Federation Starship Datalink
[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited August 15, 2000).]
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Actually, for the Admiral ranks, it would seem to go as follows:
The enlisted rates probably follow the USN's current ones, to a degree.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Antagonist Class Badly-Armored Poorly-Equipped Crappy-Fire Support Tug. To search out new armor and batteries. Because, well, we don't have a warp-core. That is my flagship, BTW." - Antag
Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :
O'Brian was a chief petty officer. It was a small pin type thing with 3 delta lines and some dots IIRC. And there is the one hollow pip Chief Warrant Officer that was used some.
------------------ Fire the technobabble!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
O'Brien's insignia had three chevrons and two dots. I think it was the only one of its type we really saw, but the theory goes that there might be other ones as follows:
one chevron: petty officer, third class two chevrons: petty officer, second class three chevrons: petty officer, first clas three chevrons, one dot: chief petty officer three chevrons, two dots: senior chief petty officer three chevrons, three dots: master chief petty officer
------------------ "Me, Grimlock, not 'nice dino'! Me, Grimlock, bash brains!" -Grimlock, Transformers: The Movie
Posted by Savar on :
There are numerous fan websites with illustrations of the ranks used for the Next Generation era. A good one can be found here. Ranks for the Classic Movie uniforms can be found at this site, but they are inaccurate. A superbly crafted web reference for ranks, uniforms, and decorations featured on Original Series and Movie uniforms can be found at Fitz' Starfleet Uniform Page which Fitz constructed in response to an earlier thread in this forum. The references on his site are as complete as you will find anywhere, and best of all they are ACCURATE. He plans to add information on The Motion Picture uniforms soon.
Hats off to you Fitz! And once again, thank you.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
PokeDoc? *pukes*
Okay only kidding. Anyways, it appears you're our 400th member. Welcome aboard!!!
------------------ "My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht." Psychiatrist: "Again."
Posted by Pok�Doc on :
Why, though, does O'Brien have a half-pip? I've heard that that is for Warrant Officers and Ensign, JG's (?).
Posted by Pok�Doc on :
Oh yeah, also on the link that says "Here" in Savar's post has a light blue color for Medical/counseling and a darker blue for Science. I've never heard of that. Also, it has a greyish color for Intelligence, can anyone confirm this?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Yeah, during TNG's later days two distinct yellows and two distinct blues were used. The more greyish blue-blue (how's that for vague?) seemed to be used by Science (and by Troi, actually, which throws that counselling thing into question), while the more tealish blue color was worn by Bev. And Worf's security-yellow was a bit brighter than Geordi and Data's ops/engineering yellow, which had a bit more of a muted tone to it.
The DS9/Voyager jumpsuits seemed to abandon this and got back to only three colours.
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Presumably, the reason for the color differences was simply the fading of the original colors in laundry. Since the uniforms were form-fitting for the respective actors, and some actors saw more location shooting or jeffires tube crawling than others, one would only expect the colors to fade at differing rates.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
While your theory holds water, Timo, I still think the color differences were consistent enough to warrant different cloth altogether. For example: Troi & Crusher, Worf & Data
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 16, 2000).]
Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
There is one missing in the above list: 3 1/2 pips: Commodore
------------------ "I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'." - Buffy
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Respectfully, I see no color difference in those uniform comparisons. Worf is just sitting in front of a light so his uniform looks brighter.
There has never been a character called Commodore in the TNG era, certainly never one who wore 3 1/2 pips. Besides, commodore would rank above captain, therefore it would have to be more than 4 pips. I believe, though, that a commodore is a position rather than a rank. It's a captain who is charge of a number of ships (at least in the USN). Picard served as a commodore during Unification's blockade.
O'Brien's 1/2 pip in the early seasons of DS9 was simply the ranking system they were using at the time. When it changed to the more elaborate thing, I think it was just the producers' way of showing something new with O'Brien. Everybody else was getting promoted and they wanted to do something with him too. I think it was probably just a new insignia system.
------------------ "A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
There is no rank in the USN with 3 stripes and a half, so there is no rank in Starfleet with 3 1/2 pips.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And I doubt Starfleet really changed NCO insignia between TNG and DS9. Well after O'Brien transitions to the chevrons-and-dots insignum in his duty uniform, his dress uniform continues to sport the 1/2 pip.
I think the 1/2 pip could be a ceremonial general NCO identifier, used when there are few NCOs around and there is little or no need to know their exact rate - say, a ceremony requiring a dress uniform, or a tour of duty aboard the Federation Flagship.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
"There is no rank in the USN with 3 stripes and a half, so there is no rank in Starfleet with 3 1/2 pips."
*awaits the inevitable argument due to this statement*
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
According to the Encyclopedia 3 the 1/2 pip denotes a Chief Warrant Officer
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Well, Starfleet's ranks do seem to follow the USN rather closely. It makes sense, too...that's a pretty good system.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I really want a flying pogo-stick." - Antag
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Here's a list of ranks (not completely canon, I think):
------------------ MS Windows Error 014: Unexplained error - Please tell us how this happened ---
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
3.5 pips would fall between commander and captain. What rank could you put between those?
------------------ "They might be the infamous buzzard collectors for what we know, grabbing hapless space avians so that they don't end up as smears in the windshield." -Timo Saloniemi, 16-Aug-2000
Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :
In "Where No One Has Gone Before", does anyone have an idea what the Travelor's companion, Mr. K-, pip meant? It was very strange. IIRC, the pip was black and white squares.
------------------
takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
The Belgium Navy has a rank with 3 1/2 stripes. It denotes Commander senior grade.
And what does Sloans rank pin (4 pips and 1 line) mean?
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited August 16, 2000).]
Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :
Some people think Sloan's might be a fleet captain rank or just a special rank for the department that he was supposedly with.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I really want a flying pogo-stick." - Antag
Posted by Amadeus on :
I dont remember what Chief O'brian did to get Chief Petty Officer. Is that below and ensign? Yet an ensign can't order him around. Perhaps someone here could clarify that.
A petty officer of any sort is below an ensign, yes, because it's a non-commissioned rank. However, O'Brien was the chief operations officer on DS9. This is why he couldn't be ordered around by any ensign who happened along. It was because of his position, not his rank.
------------------ "They might be the infamous buzzard collectors for what we know, grabbing hapless space avians so that they don't end up as smears in the windshield." -Timo Saloniemi, 16-Aug-2000
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
This also explains how Kim can order lieutennants around, being of a lower rank but a higher position. When LaForge was in command in "The Arsenal of Freedom", the chief engineer technically outranked him, but LaForge had the higher authority, due to the fact that he was temporarily in the command position.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Posted by Savar on :
Regarding O'Brien, his rank has been the topic of debate since the beginning. Way back when he was transporter chief on the Enterprise, he was a Lieutenant. If I am not mistaken, I believe I have seen him with two pips, one and a half, one pip, and even a single half pip at different times during the TNG run. I don't recall him ever being referred to by rank, only by the title "chief."
Concerning uniform colors, I can't discern a difference in color between the uniforms of Crusher and Troi, or Data and Worf. They appear to be the same, however the colors did become brighter when the uniform changed. The security/operations/engineering mustard drab became a brighter gold or tenne. The medical/science blue became a lighter teal. The command red didn't change as much but does appear to me to be a few shades brighter.
The references on the site I linked are purely conjectural. Most of them fit with what we've seen in the episodes. Some of it, however, does not. It's not "official." As far as I know, there are no gray uniforms for intelligence personnel (why would you want to advertise the fact that you are an agent?), and there are no Starfleet Marines, although the concept has been batted around for years. Only naval ranks have ever been used with ONE exception. Rene Auberjonois had a cameo in Undiscovered Country where he protrayed Starfleet Colonel West who was attempting to present plans for an attempt to rescue Kirk and McCoy. This was made even more difficult to reconcile because he was wearing a REAR ADMIRAL's pin on his uniform..... Still haven't figured THAT one out....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, isn't it obvious? Like the Tal'Shiar on Romulus, Starfleet Intelligence is the only military branch in Starfleet that uses army-style ranks as opposed to naval ones. So as to hide the fact that a SF Intelligence operative was going to brief the President, SFI dressed Colonel West as a regular Starfleet Rear Admiral, somebody who wouldn't arouse any interest in the Romulan and Klingon moles infesting the Presidential Palace...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
West wears a Vice Admiral's uniform. Fact is that the ST6-costume-department made many mistakes:
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited August 17, 2000).]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
This might be considered a silly question, but what exactly is a non-commisioned officer? If you graduete from SF Academy, you're an ensign, right? Haven't these non-coms had Academy training or something?
Did they ever show us non-com rank insignias in TNG. BTW?
------------------ MS Windows Error 014: Unexplained error - Please tell us how this happened ---
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
NCOs are enlisted men. They're not officers. They probably go to a different academy. Shortened courses.
------------------ "We have HTML and images in sigs disabled here. Don't try it. If you do, I'll shove the image up your ass, then ban you. Have a nice day. :)" -Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
They are officers, but non commissioned.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Hence the term "NCO", "non-commissioned officer". :-)
------------------ "It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing." -Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
Posted by spyone on :
The Encyclopedia says O'Brien's chevron thingy denotes "Chief of Operations". dubious.
For myself (and entirely non-canon), I have made 4 pips denote Fleet Captain, moving Captain to 3 1/2 pips. Thus, it was Fleet Captain Picard. (And Commander Janeway, but that's another discussion.)
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
Check out www.tangofleet.com/ranks/ranks1.htm - the play by email game Tango Fleet, which has a long list of Starfleet officer and enlisted ranks, plus Klingon, Bajoran and Romulan pips (some graphics are canon, but some of the names are speculative).
------------------ "Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I believe, that the lower enlisted ranks are just that ... an enlisted man/woman doesn't become an "NCO" until s/he's a Senior Chief Petty Officer or so. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure how thats how it goes in the Navy ... you'll notice the senior ranking enlisted men wearing the same khaki uniform on ships as the regular officers do ...
