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Posted by Savar on :

Just read in The Magazine that Brannon Braga got a three year contract from Paramount to co-develop the new Star Trek tv series with Rick Berman. That about does it for me, folks. This twerp couldn't come up with something original if his life depended on it. The fifth series will likely be some insipid space-opera with clich�d plot lines and two-dimensional characters, the hallmark of a Braga creation.

I can't wait to see how low the ratings get for this next gem.....

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Did someone call for an assassin? Leave it to me, I'll have your dead body in 24 Hrs or the next one's free!!!! Just contact me at Assassins R Us!!!! Here's my Card.......

*runs off*

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I just love today's optimistic youth, don't you?

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Yes, especially considering that Braga has never written any worthwhile Trek episodes or movies, and that Voyager was at its worst with him at the helm.

Oh, wait, Braga has written some of the more popular Trek episodes and movies, and most fans consider the Braga years to be Voyager's best. Or does anyone really think that season two was better than season five or six?

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Hey, you get no disagreement from me on that point. But does the man write the show by himself?

Me, I never like to judge a thing before I see it. It's too close to prejudice.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Uh, what I was saying was that I think Braga's antichrist status is undeserved.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Ugh, I am going to wait before commenting on 5. I think Voyager could do better, but it could do worse (like a whole season of "Fair Havens" and "Spirit Folk")

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Where's the bathroom on this ship?

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

I'm personally looking forward to the new series. Could it not be that Braga was following a certain set of rules that needed to be adhered to in order to write for Voyager .. and some of his stuff wasn't too bad.

I think given some added creative freedom, his stuff can be quite good. Let's face it, a ship stranded alone in the Delta Quadrant can only foster so much without leaving a ton of arcs WIDE OPEN and unfinished.

Last season ($poilers here if you haven't seen it) was little too submerse in the surreal. I mean the Spirit folk ep and such ... Not my bag of tea!! I would have prefered stories that forward the progress of their journey home. What ever happened to going where no one has gone before and exploring .. making first contact without a war ensuing .. etc.. I think that's been lost over that last few season (meeting with 8472 aside).

I think with the new series, the writers, whoever they may be, will have much more freedom to storytell.

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-There can be only Nine !! ..mmm.. maybe 10 !!

- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax:

[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited September 17, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I don't understand your argument. Voyager, because of its setting, surely has more creative freedom than any other Trek series, no? How could a show set in the Alpha Quadrant, as it appears series 5 will be, have more elbow room than that?

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

My argument is this. Voyager has no time to explore really. Every story MUST end with Voyager taking off to go back home .. there is absolutely no deviation from that, and if there was, it would not be believable.

The "Next star to the right and straight on till morning" theme is thrown right out to lunch. They are too pressed for time.

Yes, they have a whole quadrant of brand new aliens and alien territories to explore.. but these are species and places, at least in this series, that can never be explored again. Cuz they do not have the time to foster any relations with new worlds unless the species has the technology to span the distance betweent he delta and alpha quadrant .. like species 8472 or the Borg and both those species non-allied
Think of it. Any arcs that involved a re-occuring species, are or were arcs involving the Hirogen, Kazons, 8472, Vadians, and the Borg. All enemies!! Allies?? NONE .. at least none that stuck around for more than one ep.

.. they meet and leave.. and that takes away from all the Character development creativity that we see in DS9 and TNG. And I feel that is missing in Voyager. Don't get me wrong... I love Voyager .. I've been one of its advocates since the get-go! I don't want you all to think that voyager has be without creativity .. on the contrary .. there have been some very good episodes .. I just feel that this is where the creativity is being stumped.. and hopefully - Braga will not have this hurdle to jump and he can explore the human/alien condition farther!

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-There can be only Nine !! ..mmm.. maybe 10 !!

- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax:

[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited September 18, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Well, I have to respectfully disagree, I guess, as I see Voyager being the series with the most creative potential of any Trek. Now, as to what they've done with that potential, well, that's a different story.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I've been wondering what would happen if Voyager travelled through a Federation analogue... Call it the 'Federated Delta-Beta Quadrant Worlds'... after all, why COULDN'T there be another Federation out there? Now, I don't mean a "counter-Earth" Federation, with Starfleet and all, but just a coalition of species united for the same reasons the Federation did.

I think there's some story possibilities there, especially if they ran across a group just in the early stages of founding, with barbarians at the gate, and so forth. There'd be idealists who want to learn from OUR Federation's people, others who might be nominally IN the FDBQW, but who want to use Voyager's tech against the barbarians, etc. since a Federation could be large, the issues could linger as they travelled.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

Sol: I guess that's what I mean - Yes.. The potential for great creativity is there .. but because of the need to get home .. it leave the story wanting at the end.

IMagine if Voyager found a wormhole - a stable one - and it brought them to the Gamma Quadrant.

NOW that ONE thing would make Voyager a whole new show. Then there would be TIME to explore the great unknown!

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-There can be only Nine !! ..mmm.. maybe 10 !!

- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax:

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

I've often wondered why ST has never shown us an alien Federation-analogue, as First suggested.

Probably couldn't be arsed thinking of enough interesting aliens for a single episode, even though the exploration/traversing of a vast semi-friendly territory of differing species but equal technologies could last for more than just the one ep.

I do believe I'm rambling.

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Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Ashrim, what would that change?

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

There'd be the Jem'Hadar. Any coolness that they have would be mercilessly beaten out of them until they were no more frightening than a slightly bumpy Bert from Sesame Street. With a Cocaine addiction.

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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Enter Maria and Luis, the Vorta Supervisors of the Jem'Hadar detachment.

"First Oskar'Grouch, can you vouch for the loyalty of your men?"

"Ooh, so you want us to beg, do you? Well I'm not, so there!"

Maria tilts her head slightly; Second Snuffal'fagass blows the First to subatomic oblivion.

"First Snuffal'fagass, can you vouch for the loyalty of your men?"

"Well, gee, I dunno. I'd have to ask them. That would be only fair."

Luis looks at the men inquiringly. Suddenly the First feels cold duratanium through his chest, and flops to the ground panting weakly.

"First A'El'mo, can you vouch for the loyalty of your men?"

"Tee-hee-hee-hee-hee," he giggled as he wiped his bloodied blade off his deeper-red scales.

"What's so funny?" Maria demanded.

"Me sorr-ee, Maria. It's just that...that..."

"That what?!"

"That they're more likely to kill me than those guys that arrived in that Intrepid-class Federation ship that arrived last night."

"He has a point", Luis admitted to Maria, "Have you been watching the latest episodes?"

Maria face skrunched up in thought for a second or two, then gestured to the case in front of her.

"Fuck it", she said.

Before Third Mis'Pyggi could respond, Luis vaporised the case. As Maria starred into the empty space the case once was (with a dark sense of satisfaction) she reached for her communicator.

"Beam the remains of Post-War Jem'Hadar Detachment SG1 into the Federation ship in orbit. They'll play holy fuck on board. Now that they've no Intricate Green to sustain them, they'll go on a mad rampage, killing all they come across."

"Acknowledged", croaked the comm link.

A puzzled glance from Seventy-Fifth Ferget'Fall later, the remnants of Post-War Jem'Hadar Detachment SG1 were transported on board the U.S.S. Voyager.

Precisely 13 minutes and 11 seconds later, the collision of Fourth Big'Byrd and the magnetic constrictors in Voyager's Engineering Room lit up the sky above Maria's and Luis' heads as they walked back to what many of their colleagues had dubbed 'Fort Sesame Street'. Those that had been through the Alpha Quadrant wormhole, that is.

The same thought crossed both their minds as they craned their heads back to view the fiery display far above thier heads: What the fuck were the Founders thinking?

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Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

Forget the watching the premiere, if the trailer turns me off, you wont see me in front of the boob-tube at 8 on Wednesdays anymore.

I've recently come to the opinion that Star Trek started and ended with Rodenberry. It has no value, life, or legacy after his life has expired.

The franchise will most likely be dead in another few years. Whether it be to plunging ratings (and I mean plunging) or UPN lawsuits, the days are numbered.

If Voyager's any indication, it's a slow, painful death, indeed.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

"Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such distant ages, that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us."

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited September 22, 2000).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

*applauds GA*

He doesn't post often, but when he does, it's worth it.

"I've recently come to the opinion that Star Trek started and ended with Rodenberry. It has no value, life, or legacy after his life has expired."

This has been pointed out before, but how good was season 1 of TNG? How good? Come on, speak louder. "Pants" you say?

GR had little to do with TNG from at least season 4 onwards. Any credit for the greatness of TNG can be lumped with the writers, and, like it or not, Rick Berman.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Savar on :

Ah, but Star Trek was HIS show and these were HIS characters. Roddenberry was involved with the creative process and it was HIS vision, something I firmly believe is lacking in Trek these days.

It was Roddenberry who "caught lightning in a bottle." He wasn't the whole show, of course. He brought on board talented writers and directors and let them re-create his universe. And it worked.

My concern has always been that custodianship of the Star Trek "franchise" (I prefer the term "legacy"), is better left with someone other than Berman/Braga. When Roddenberry began the TNG project, he surrounded himself with those people who knew what Star Trek was all about. People like Bob Justman, Eddie Milkis, David Gerrold, Dorothy Fontana, and Bill Theiss. Through an unlucky turn of fate, Milkis chose to "get back to his other commitments", and Berman took over as supervising producer.

Had it not been for ailing health, Gene Roddenberry would have certainly retained a degree of input and control over his creation. It seemed to me that almost as soon as he was gone, Berman set out to retool Star Trek into HIS vision.

Deep Space Nine was dark and brooding and war-obsessed. TNG had to be cancelled so it wouldn't compete with Bermans "baby." The space station concept didn't get the ratings so they trotted out Defiant and the endless series of wars/conflicts. Even that was not enough to bring them a viewership close to TNG so "Look! It's your old pal Worf from the last series here to save the ratings!"

So now DS9 is spiralling down the commode like last night's liver and onions so they decide to go into Star Trek overdose and bring out Voyager. "Look, it's a starship, OK? You like starships, right?" And what follows is seven more years of Berman Trek, uninspiring space opera the folks at ITV perfected thirty years ago. More war, more enemies, with more than occasional trips to the holodeck to engage in a romantic affair with a computer generated image. At least when Kirk played the game, he could bag a living, breathing date.

So Voyager is wrapping up and hot on its heels is yet another "spinoff", undoubtedly spun even farther from Roddenberry's vision than the last two pseudo-treks. Like I stated when I began this thread, I'm not hopeful.

In my humble opinion, there is just TOO much Trek out there these days. Berman and his cronies are so worried about keeping their jobs, they will continue to manufacture Star Trek spinoffs until the inevitable hammer comes down for the first time since 1969: cancellation.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

What convinces me you're correct is how much better the first season of TNG was compared to the rotten custard which was the rest of the series.

Oh, wait...

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Oh, come on. You're trying to come up with bad GR Trek and the best you can come up with is TNG season 1? What about season 2!?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Or TOS season 1. That was pretty bad, too, IMHO, at least the first 10 or so eps were.

I like DS9, actually. I felt it was very close to TOS, with the Tholians, Tellarites and stuff. And of course the Big Happy Fleet thing that's sooo obvious in DS9.

Voyager? Some good eps, but the Delta Quadrant turned out to be a boooooring place, with only naive Evil Aliens and humanized Borg and fluidic space things, and photonic beings, and transwarp shuttles, and people evolving into lizards, and irritating freelance cooks, and holographic romance, and spaceraces, and ... Ok, I'l stop now.

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"Human race in tha house!" KoRn & Kittie, This Town
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I guess my point is that yes, Roddenberry created Star Trek and many of its greatest moments can be traced directly back to him, but many of them can't, and saying that he IS Star Trek denies the work of whole armies of people who have worked together over 30 years to produce some of my favorite shows ever.

So, uh, yeah.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

As a case in point, there are many people who believe that the success of the original Trek was solely down to Gene Coon.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I don't think it's solely down to anyone.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

That's what I meant. Even though that's not what I said. When will you get off your lazy arses and learn telepathy, hmm?

With very few exceptions (maybe B5), TV is produced by comittee. Sure, Joss Whedon is extremely talented, but if he wrote every episode of Buffy and Angel, it would no doubt end up like B5 season 5. Sure, the X-Files is Chris Carter's baby, but would the series have got of it's feet without Morgan and Wong, and many other people (judging by the success of his other shows, many would say it wouldn't have). Sure, "Wagon Train to the Stars" was GR's idea, but Coon, Fontana, Justman, and a whole heap of people are also responsible for bringing it to our screens. And Berman, Moore, Bragga and the others with TNG. Even DS9, the one that possibly strayed most from the original vision, wasn't solely taken their by Ira Behr, but by the whole writing team.

B5 worked because it was just one guy (largely). That was it's strength (season 3), and it's weakness (season 5). Chris Carter and Joss Whedon are just as talented as JMS, but they have people who help them, support them, tell them when they suck (Carter needs a few more of them). Trek has someone leading it, but not in the same way. Praise GR for Trek, he deserves it. Just don't give him sole credit.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy