Flare Sci-Fi Forums: The Nature Of Romulan Might (Tam-Ta-Raaah)

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Fancy title, huh?
My topic is the might of the romulans, ranging from "Undiscovered Country" to "WYLB".

Starting with ST:VI. They must've had some power back then, to be of any worth to the conspiring SF-officers. Has anyone read some book dealing with romulan might in this timeframe? I don't know what ships they had back then, so I'll just jump ahead to "TNZ".

Having not seen the ep personally I can only refer to the line I've heard that Alaimo spoke, "We've grown stronger" or s.t like that. Some say that the Warbird in question was especially big but I don't believe it was a special class that was phased out later, just a camera-trick to beef up the drama-scores. Regardless, they must've managed to build at least 3/5 of Starfleet's fleet-size, but with mightier power per ship, to come out like that and start comparing dicksize. But I'm just guessing.

Then there was "The Die Is Cast", where they lose about 20-30 warbirds, not at all impossible to rebuild within six months (if the feds could do it in a year in "BOBW") but a catastrophy nonetheless. Timeout for a while?

Then we brutally jump ahead to "WYLB", where I recall it was said that the Romulans will need to lick their wounds for a decade (or was that the Klingons?) or at least wasn't in any shape to mount another taskforce.

Now since the rommies didn't participate that much in the Dommie war (at least not as much as the Klingons) then apparently the romulan fleet wasn't THAT big, if SF had more ships than them after the party AND had taken the majority of the blow in the war.

So how much of their "propaganda" was valid and how much was paper tiger, simply hiding behind the neutral zone, spurting out threats and ultimatums now and then, perhaps hoping that nobody discovers that they've had the same 300 warbirds since "TNZ", since they depleted their amounts of quantum singularities or whatever it is they have in their engines.

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And by the way, I faked all the orgasms.

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

It was the Klingons who will need to lick their wounds. As I recall, it was stated that the Klingons and the Federation will be unable to pose any major threats; however the Romulans would need to be watched very carefully.

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Posted by Nemesis (Member # 255) on :

Well, i think the Romulan Fleet is not that large but powerfull enough to kick the Federations butt.

Imagine a Warbird is twice the size of a Galaxy Class, and with the Cloaking Device they could do a lot of damage if they want.

I suppose the Romulan resupply and drydock depots can't produce in the same amount as Starfleet drydocks, because the romulan Power Core (artificial Quantum Singularity) can't be so easily mass produced as the Dilithium Warpcore.

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I don't believe there was ever a line about "we've grown stronger"

All I rembember was "Matters of greater urgency caused our absence.. but now, we are back."

I still wonder what that meant.

As to Romulan fleet strength... I am reminded of how the old USSR back in the 50's-60's fooled the West into thinking they were much more heavily armed than they were... by parading the SAME missiles three time around Red Square during their celebrations, my building plywood installations, etc.

I don't think the Romulans are as strong as they want everybody to think they are. I'd bet their economy isn't all that prosperous, either, isolationist as they seem to be. That's why, in MY Series 5 concept, they'd collapsed due to the stresses and losses brought on by the Dominion War.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

(In mine, they're actively trying to avoid such a fate.)

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Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

I had the same thing happening to them, about 3 years back *L*. I'd guess that the Romulan absence was due to one of a number of causes: They had other external enemies to deal with, internal trouble or simple policy. Also you'll note that the Romulans are isolationist in relation to the Federation and the Klingons, but not with everyone. And space being as large as it is, I doubt not trading with the Federation would be a big problem for them.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Romulans may be isolationist towards the Federation, but that is pretty much by UFP design (the Neutral Zone doesn't lend itself to commerce and cooperation, really). They seem to be actively "conversing" with other races, though. They were speculated to have had an alliance with the Klingons back in TOS; they fought with them during the 2270s, as per Kor's boasts in "Blood Oath"; they were part of both overt and covert Starfleet anti-Klingon plans in ST6 (note how the Romulan ambassador listens in on the "Operation Retrieve" briefing with the UFP President's approval - at least in the televised version of the movie); and they continued their war/scheming with the Klingons throughout their pre-TNG isolation, as per "Sins of the Father", "Face of the Enemy" et al.

Moreover, they apparently were in some sort of cooperation with Cardassians at one time, since Dax in "Dax" says Cardies used Romulan components for Terok Nor, and Garak apparently was serving on the Cardassian embassy to Romulus at one time. And they employ foreign assassins, as per "Improbable Cause", suggesting cosmopolitan interest in interstellar matters.

The fact that the Romulans keep fighting these multi-front wars might suggest they are rather powerful. Or then their constantly shifting alliances mean that they are weak when alone, and have to find allies wherever they can. Personally, I think it's more of the latter, and the Warbird fleet is mostly a propaganda fleet - a few dozen to a few hundred big ships and virtually no smaller ones.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

To think if Romulus had been the main target in "BOBW", would've been interesting...

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And by the way, I faked all the orgasms.

Leslie Nielsen, in "Room With A View With A Staircase In A Pond"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Would it? Assuming the Romulan encounter would begin in a "Q Who?" like fashion, the story could be rather short.

"Sir, that cubelike ship sent a cyborg over to probe our defences." "Kill it." "We did, but another one appeared, stronger than the preceding one." "Very well, destroy the cube." "Firing... massive damage." "Good, maintain fire, maximum power." "Sir, our weapons did less damage towards the end, but since we kept on firing, we destroyed the cube anyway." "Elapsed time?" "72 seconds from the beam-in of the first cyborg." "Damn. We must stop wasting so much time in this idle chatter. Next time just fire at sight."

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Assuming, yes.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

<I still wonder what that meant.>>

I think we were meant to wonder what he meant. I think the Rommies are actively involved in things both internal and external that are quite major. Perhaps they are mostly on the other side of Romulan space far, far from the Federation. Perhaps this is why their committed Dominion fleet was relatively small. One could argue that they have been dealing with a huge war in the far flung reaches of the Beta Quadrant. Matters of greater urgency...

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

That is always what I'd assumed. Another enemy on the far side of their space.

Incidentally, the LUG makers of the Trek RPG thought so too, and created the "Taurhai Unity" (kind of a Federation without the Prime Directive) for Romulan campaigns.

Or maybe the matters of greater urgency had to do with the reson they're a bit bumpy-headed now, unlike Vulcans.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Very interesting stuff, having their fingers in many different pies. I do think the romulans could be so much bigger.

The air of mysticism that surrounds them has served it's purpose well, but I think they could be more. I thought John Fleck displayed a more impressive, intelligent and intimidating statesman, something not all romulans have pulled off without going Vader.

I feel a portrait of romulans should emphasize on being alien, not just evil, heartless or powerhungry.
Like a conversation between an SF-officer and romulan dito, with the romulan saying "why do you humans always say that?" in a curious and honest tone.

The romulans should get a little more credit, perhaps with more parallels between them and vulcans. Some more angles on why the romulans chose a culture of their own.

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And by the way, I faked all the orgasms.

Leslie Nielsen, in "Room With A View With A Staircase In A Pond"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

First,

Go to "Creative..." and post your Series V concept, I'm intereasted.

Is Breen space close to Romulan space? The Rommies may have wound up fighting the Breen much more than the Dominion towards the end of the war ...

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

That is quite possible. Romulans have *sayings* about the Breen ("Never turn your back on one"), while the Federation has only rumors, many of them apparently false (like the theory that the homeworld is bitter cold, and the suits are for refigeration). Somehow I think the development of sayings would require some time to have passed from the first contact.

Then again, the Breen had border disputes with Cardassians, and Cardies probably haven't loitered all that far away from their homeworld. So it's no wonder the Romulans have contact with the Breen - the suited enigmas seem to be part of the good old small circle of races whose activities concentrate in the near-Earth space, along with Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Feds, Ferengi...

I'd really prefer the mysterious adversaries of the Romulans to be some race the Feds have never even heard about.

Then again, is the Romulan Star Empire big enough to prevent the Feds from knowing what lies beyond? If the Romulans have been cordoned inside a Neutral Zone ever since the days of the first Romulan war, how big can they be in spatial terms? Or did the RNZ treaty divide the entire galaxy into two halves, Fed and Romulan, and the Zone separates these halves, preventing Fed passage?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

The Romulans are very active in AlphaBeta situations, though most of the time they're in the background while others fix things for them. They indeed seem to be very isolationist (is that a word??), and maybe even shy. The fact they joined the combined Klingon-Starfleet fleet in a DS9 ep, proves they are not so keen in talking a lot with other races.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I wouldn't call the Romulans isolationists. Reactionaries, maybe.

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Posted by SIR SIG on :

In 'Inter Ermin Silent Leges' (sp), there are a whole shit load of Warbirds in orbit around Romulus. All for show to be sure. but mabye some were basic frames to keep the feds guessing.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quick re: The Neutral Zone (for Nimrod).

It wasn't that the warbird was shown especially big, it's that warbird's ARE big, and this was one of the few times it was actually shown on screen.

Now, regarding the Romulan Period of isolationism. I've always liked the simple idea that they pulled back, and then pumped all their money into research. The Warbird would look a lot more impressive if the Fed's previous look at them had been the old Bird of Prey (of course, they might have had ships between these, unless the Tomed incident just involved them sending out their Klingon D7's as fodder).

One other theory I've heard though, is that the Romulan period of isolationism no longer happened, due to Yesterday's Enterprise. Before that episode, the Romulans were never mentioned as having done anything for several decades before. However, the Ent-C saw then attacking a Klingon outpost (maybe roadtesting some Warbird prototypes). Originally, the Federation never heard of this. The Klingon's kept quiet. However, due to Yar's prescence, the fact that Garret was dead, the fact that the cheif engineer had a nice sandwhich for lunch, whatever, history turned out slightly different. Maybe the Ent-C DID get a message to Starfleet. Maybe the Klingons reported it. Maybe a Warbird got damaged and ended up in Fed space. Who knows. But, as a result, the Romulans - knowing that their cover was blown - came out of isolation at that point, and immedietly started trying to tear the Klingons and Federation apart.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Intereasting theory, Liam.

God I hate quantum mechanics.

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I think that before TNG, they were in a relative breakdown perhaps internal affairs. So during that time their economy fell and ship production ceased. So they became isolationist to the Fedration and the Klingons to prevent their situation from becoming a apparent. Their ways of beinga honorable lie in TOS was over as soon as they realized it was easy to decieve the Federation. When they got things under ontrol, they built large ships to make their enemies think that their power has increased. However their ships are only as powerful as perhaps the best of their enemies but in limited fashion since the Romulans use singularities and large starships in their fleet. I think that in total combat sips only number about 800 and about 200-300 of those ar Warbirds.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Perhaps the artificial singularities are difficult to create, and thus they chose to build a relative few BIG ships instead of a lot of little ships.

And maybe the reason they don't use anti-matter is that by the time they figured it out, they would have had to have overhauled their entire fleet.

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Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

That is the exact same point I made over on the 'Late bloomers?' thread a few days ago, Omega.

No less valid, though

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So how big is the Romulan Empire? I used to imagine them as almost as big as the Federation, with the Klingon Empire being quite small ... but now, I'm picturing a much smaller Romulan Empire than I had previously ...

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I don't think we can really say.

One thing to consider is that the Romulans have to be capable of defending their space. Tricks and illusions might work with the Federation, which isn't exactly going to invade them without cause. But we know they've tangled with the Klingons off and on for some time, and if the Klingons could have captured Romulus by force, they would have. So, as a minimum, the Romulan Empire is strong enough to hold off the Klingons.

Now, whether that means they have a fleet of roughly equal strength, or strong planetary garrisons, or excellent strategies and tactics is up for debate.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Discovering a new piece of technology doesn't mean scrapping all current tech. They could just add new ships with m/am. Smaller ships. It's called phasing out.
I have a theory of my own. I believe all writers have a note on their desks saying "don't reveal interesting things about rom. except when explicitly warranted by boss kahuna"!!

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Who's to say that matter-antimatter power is better than quantum singularities anyway?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I am.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Damn your irrefutable logic JeffKardde. I can see how you beat Oomega in all your arguments. Clearly, I am no match for your huge brain. Although it's size does make it easy...FOR ME TO POOP ON!

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

It's ok -- I'll just wear a hat ...

Muwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ...

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well this was unexpected...

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