My "guess":

Vulcans
Klingons
Romulans
Bajorans
Cardassian�s
Ferengi?
Humans...*sigh*

------------------
So, how's that Survivor-contest coming along, Newt?
-Well not very well at the MOMENT, everyone seems to have died.
-Gee, that's bad. Those Aliens bugging you yet?
-Not really, they mostly come at night mostly...
 

------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited November 10, 2000).]
 

quote:

---

Cardassian�s

---

------------------
"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

------------------
"Life sucks, then you die"

The Ferengi did not have Warp capability in the Earth year 1947 (DS9: 'Little Green Men').

The Bajorans did not have Warp capability when the Federation first met them (At least one TNG episode, Bajorans were called Bajora). That is, if you don't count the sail ship(s?).

I thought the Cardasian Union was (much?) older than the Federation, don't know for sure though.

------------------
Buffy: "See, this is a school. And we have students and they check out books and then they learn things."
Giles: "I was beginning to suspect that was a myth."
- Buffy: The Vampire Slayer
 

quote:

---

I thought the Cardasian Union was (much?) older than the Federation, don't know for sure though.

---

I'm quite certain they are. That doesn't mean they had warp that much earlier. They could've been land lubbers for quite a while.

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Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?

Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.

 

Bajoran's had Warp before Cardassians a few thousand years ago... With their Sailing Vessels see "Explorers" [DS9]

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 

Got:
Cardassiane
Cardassian:
Cardassiany
Cardassianv
Cardassian-

I SHIT YOU NOT, DuFRAINE!!

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

My point is that I feel that Na Cardassacanach (arrogant s.o.b.s that they are) would have made other crashes known to Sisko - I mean, if there were other crash landings, Da Cardeez would know of them (planetary scanning capabilities and all).

After all, they really had no need to inform Sisko of the Bajorans' feat at the end of 'Explorers'. If they were willing to admit to one landing, then a few more would hardly have mattered.

FINALLY (on this point, at least ), the Bajorans would have no real way to get back to Bajor, presuming that they survived the initial crash. Therefore, their leaders would have had no way to know about the effect of the tachyon eddies on the sailers (they'd asssume the crew got lost in space) and would be in no position to exploit the eddies.

Therefore, the Bajorans did not come into contact with warp drive (as we know it) until the Cardassians invaded, sometime around 2300(?).

SO...who does that leave in the Order Of Relativistic Velocity?

Vulcans
Klingons + Breen
Earth
Romulans
Cardassians
Ferengi
Bajorans

Reasons:

• The Breen were able to wipe out a Klingon battle fleet yonks ago - never specified whether or not it was thier ground forces which got hammered or their fleet was routed en route, but my money's on the latter. Therefore, I believe that the Breen had warp capability at the same time as the Klingons. As to which came first, well...

• Much has been made of the Romulans leaving Vulcan, and whether or not they did so with warp drive or without. It's all been said, but *I* think that they did so without it, heading off to Romulus on sleeper or generation ships.
  After all, the Vulcans have MARA drives, like Cochrane's.
  The Romulans' confined quantum singularity seems to work just fine for them.
  Thus the two technologies were developed quite seperately from each other - the Vulcans never had singularity propulsion, as seen from the fact that they don't have it now, whereas the Romulans never had MARA, but invented the singularity idea on thier own. If there was any flaw in it's design, surely we would have seen new ships emerging from beyond the Neutral Zone by now
  *drools at the prospect of new Romulan ships*
  *ahem*
  And as we all know, the Romulans didn't have warp capabilities until after 'Balance of Terror', after which they acquired it off the Klingons.

• Now the Cardassians. They're a bit of an enigma.
  I think that they would have developed warp near the end of the Hebitians reign - a civilization that enlightened would certainly look into the possibilities of FTL technologies. Problem is, their push towards warp ate away at their planet's resources. They then had to focus their attention towards exploiting other systems (their own presumably being raped for minerals already) and turned towards local unoccupied systems. However, desperation (plus the rise of a militanttt elementt into governmentttt) meantt that they soon looked in the direction of the sparsely-industrialized, non-warp Bajorans, knowing that a pre-warp civilization would offer little by way of fleet-whacking power.
  Little did they realize the resilience and determination the Bajoran people were prepared show in order to free their homeworld. Their decades of effort and sacrifice were rewarded, but before the Cardassians withdrew (ending what had become known as "The Occupation"), the Bajorans acquired warp power off the Cardassians before they left.

  Sensing the Bajorans readiness to use this technology to conduct more off-world raids (like the one mentioned in 'Shakar' - the only one), and knowing that a terrorist attack on Cardassia Prime would evaporate support for the military, coupled with the fact that Bajor was practically ruined anyway, the Cardassians withdrew.
  I surmise, therefore, that the Balorans have not had warp for more than ten years.

• The Ferengi purchased the tech off the Breen - now that can't have been too long ago, seeing as First Contact between them and the Fed occured 15 or so years ago.
  

I think that the only real mystery is when the Klingons developed warp.

Did they beat it out of the Hur'q? Unlikely, seeing as they seem to have "left" Qu'on'os in much the same way sa the Cardassians laft bajor i.e. because it suited them, they'd had their fun.

Did they steal it off the Vulcans? Hardly, they'd have to get to either Vulcan or a ship of theirs first. And I can't see the Vulcans revealing themselves to the warlike knob-ends that the Klingons are (and, most likely, were).

Did they buy it off someone? Fine. Who?

Did the entire space-folding mechanism of subspace fields and general relativity come to a priest on Borath or Qu'on'os in a hazy vision?

It's where my money is!

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited November 11, 2000).]
 

No really, this demands some sweet pondering!

---1---
Is it really (REALLY) confirmed that the romulans were totally warp-unable until after "Balance Of Terror"?
Couldn't it just have been that the fresh, volatile design that was the original "BoP" had to sacrifice warp-drive in order to get all the other gathered tactical systems running peachy?

I mean, Spock's demonstration with the piece of "hardest material in the book" shows that the plasma-cannon probably was one helluva drainer...
And an experimental cloaking-device??? Shie', that's gotta suck'em dry! Might encourage some tinkering...

And if they developed singularity-drives later anyway, why switch? If the new drive WAS better, why didn't anyone else switch?

Well I'll tell you what, I'll join thee in the ship-emerging-droolage.

---2---
*shuffles papers in orderly fashion* On to the next item on our agenda... Who were the Hebitians?
(*BartSimpsonTalk* Yeah, who WERE the Hebitians?)

I'll just fire all my guns now as I don't want to bother starting any fruitfly-threads right now...

---3---
Was the famous multi-barreled "Vulcan-Cannon" invented before or after Roddenberry's Vulcans were?

---4---
Is it true Klingons lack tear ducts and if so, is it considered a slipup when Ezri joked about "spotting a tear in Worf's eye" after some event in DS9?

---5---
What is the most accepted spelling of the words 'shit' and 'allright' whilst applying a lucious jive-accent?
(just threw that one in for flavour)

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

ALSO remember the poet that came forward in time through the wormhole in "Accession" [DS9] he had his own little sailing vessel...

Also reguarding the Klingon warp theory. The Hurq might have left ships on Q'Onos or the Klingons might have stolen/copied the designs/reverse engineered their own ships etc. etc.

Andrew

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited November 11, 2000).]
 

2063
Humans develop warp drive.

2063 to 2260
Klingons develop, seize in combat, or trade for information on warp drive.

2260 to 2377
Ferengi buy warp drive.
Romulan Star Empire obtains warp drive from Klingons as part of trade. Romulan Star Empire designs a new kind of warp drive engine. (Dilithium may be scarce in their empire.)

Breen and Cardassians are unknown.
Bajor is a minor planet in the galaxy. She is not a major power.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

For centuries they've got this little wooden craft with the Bajoran insignia dropping out of space onto their cities. They get warp speed, find Bajor, see *THAT* symbol!!!!

Well, c'mon! The Bajorans have been bombin' 'em for years =)

------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos

"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen 'Balance of Terror' or 'The Enterprise Incident', so I'm only going on what I've heard and read.
Although (correct me if I'm wrong, please), wasn't there a line in 'The Enterprise Incident' that stated that Romulans were using Klingon designs in their ships.
Was it ever explicitly stated that the Romulans ever got warp off the Klingons?

I mean, if they did, then why have they gone over to Confined Quantum Singularities (heretofore known as "Micro-Sings" because...sod it). The whole point of them having Micro-Sings was as a plot device in 'Timescape', but I still feel that there is very little to decide between MARA and Micro-Sings in terms of performance.
Even if there was a slight advantage, the Romulans wouldn't adopt MARA because

• THEY have it, and it wouldn't look good for the Romulan Star Empire to be using an enemy's tech so openly.
  
• The cost of refitting their ships would be obscene.
  
• It doesn't suit my argument!
  

Nimrod:
1. Sure, pull up a basin and dribble away.

2. The Hebitians were what the Cardassians were called (not an offshoot like the Vulcan/Romulan thingy) before they became the power-hungry expansionist race that we saw in TNG and early DS9. They soon faded away.

3. I'd say...before?

4. I'd surmise NOT, seeing as it's just a figure of speak in some parts.

5. a) "Sheeeet" (exhaled pronunciation)
b) "Shit" (inhaled) - usually used in conjunction with the words "negro" and "muthafucka".

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited November 12, 2000).]
 

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

 

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

In the next comments, "warp" is taken to be synonymous to faster-than-light drive, even if it is actually called something else by the natives or based on different principles.

-Vulcans must have had warp in 2063, since this is the only way they could have responded so quickly to Cochrane's experiment, unless they were specifically *expecting* it (and I don't really believe in that particular conspiracy theory). But that's just about the only thing we can say for sure about Vulcan warp.

-Quark may not have been intending to say that the Ferengi and the Vulcans did not have warp in 1947. He may have been saying that, by using the sort of time travel he had just performed, he could go back to the time when these races did not have warp, and then sell it to them. So a lot of bets are off then.

-Bajorans may never have discovered warp, and they may *still* be ignorant of it. They could just fly warp-powered ships gained from a variety of sources. Their known "native" designs (the ones not shared by other races) have not demonstrated explicit warp capability.

-OTOH, the ship in "Ensign Ro" should not be used as a yardstick in measuring Bajoran drive capabilities. It was a SURPRISE to everybody that the ship of the Bajoran terrorists (BTW, I like to think that "Bajora" was just the name of this terrorist group..) was incapable of warp. Furthermore, this very type of ship was later shown to be quite capable of warp, in the hands of various aliens and also in the hands of Bajorans, both in TNG and in DS9.

-I like to think that the Ferengi really did buy warp from the Breen, even though this is from a noncanon booklet. But the Ferengi could have done this thousands of years ago for all we know (provided that we interpret Quark in "LGM" the way stated above). Even if the Feds only made contact with the Ferengi recently, there is no reason why the Ferengi and the Breen couldn't have had prior contact.

-Furthermore, the Ferengi were self-stated to be slow in developing things in "LGM". Yet they have *very* fast warpships. Did they get this superfast warp directly from the Breen? Are the Breen also superfast, and willing to share that ability with others? If not, then the Ferengi must have had a LOT of time to fine-tune their engines - so they must have acquired them in the distant past.

-Romulans could have gained (or lost and regained) warp at just about any point of galactic history. They could have left Vulcan in warpships of their own invention, but never told the Surakian Vulcans how to build those. They could have left in sublight ships and developed warp independently. They could have left in warpships at a time when all Vulcan had warp. They could have hitchhiked. They could have lacked warp until the Klingons sold it to them.

-The fact that a single Romulan ship in "BoT" appeared to lack warp (at least most of the time) proves nothing about the abilities of the Romulan Star Empire at the time. Some military planes of today lack radar. Some lack guns. Some lack engines. Some lack wings. Yet they still perform their military mission, and are in fact optimized for it to greater or lesser degree.

-Finally, if any of the big races of TNG had gained warp significantly earlier than the others, it would have had a chance to build a greater powerbase and could overwhelm the others with sheer numbers, even assuming complete stagnation of warp development after initial discovery. There could be balancing factors, but it would be implausible for them to synchronize ALL the major races to equal level by the 2300s. It seems more likely that the initial discovery was synchronized at least to within a couple of centuries. Why this would be is a mystery - perhaps a big puppeteer is pulling strings somewhere, or perhaps some weird sociopolitical mechanism destroys races that develop warp too soon or too late. But it seems pretty sure that all the big races did get their warp "at the same time", even if they got it in different ways.

Timo Saloniemi
 

And adding to the whole Romulan warp-stew:

The line in "The Enterprise Incident" was "Intelligence reports Romulans know using Klingon designs". No mention of an alliance or anything. This means:

1/ There was a trade (possibly ship designs for cloak, altough it seemed to take the Klingons over a decade (until Trek III) before they started using it).

2/ The trade was ships for ships (The Klingons deceided to adapt their present a wee bit more though, which explains the "Bird of Prey" in Trek III)

3/ The Romulans have a good intelligence service. They stole the design.

4/ Someone dropped the Bird of Prey model, and they needed a replacement. Fortunatly, they'd just spent a lot of money building this funky/ugly new design, and this was a prefect opportunity to use is.

I'd vote for 4, personally.

And finally, the plasma weapon from BOP was warp-capable. It caught-up to the Enterprise, which was travelling at "maximum speed" away from it (and if "maximum speed was Impulse, Kirk is a very silly girly). What are the odds the Rommies were sitting there, accidently discovered a FTL weapon while lacking FLT drives. Can you imagine testing it?

"Sir, the weapon was a success!"
"How do you know?"
"We didn't see anything produced. It MUST be going faster than light!" "Or, possibly, it didn't work."
"Er, naaaahhh. It can't be that."

Even if we allow that, you think they'd just cobble a ship together, and hobble out to the neutral zone on Impulse (which, unless the Neutral Zone was next door to Romulas, must have taken a fair amount of time)? Or do you think they'd just sit there and say: "Hang on, this FTL stuff is pretty hot. Hey, since we know it's not impossible, let's design some for our ships? Brilliant idea or what? Toga party to celebrate!"

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

Can't we just be straight from now on? I'm getting dizzy.

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

• Earth discovered warp in 2063.
  
• The Vulcans had it at the same time.
  
• The Klingons had it when the first encountered the Federation around the 2260s.
  
• The Romulans' most powerful ship (!) didn't have a warp drive of any shape in 'Balance Of Terror'. you'd imagine that they would have used it if they had it!
  

And that brings to a conclusion the (very short)

THINGS WE KNOW FOR DEFINITE!!

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited November 13, 2000).]
 

------------------
I am going to buy Japanese cars from now on, because the auto workers got the day off to vote and the state went to Gore, so I want to see how many we can get unemployed.
From The Port Huron Times-Herald talk back section.

The Imperial Navy had warp drive on their star destroyers in 2260??!?!?!?!?!

------------------
Can anyone say premature ejac ... er, election?

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I am going to buy Japanese cars from now on, because the auto workers got the day off to vote and the state went to Gore, so I want to see how many we can get unemployed.
From The Port Huron Times-Herald talk back section.

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 

Also interesting is the reference to the Enterprise chasing the Romulans by looking for their "impulse turn" telltales, yet performing parts of the chase at warp 3 or higher and apparently still not overshooting their target.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

Even if Scotty was giving a "damage report" on the Romulans, his analysis must be considered suspect, since the Romulans continued to evade the Enterprise even when the latter moved at warp speeds in a more or less straight course. Perhaps Scotty was simply mistaken, because the Romulans had shut down their warp drive and cooled it down? Then again, nobody chided him for his mistake when the Romulans began acting as if they were capable of warp (that is, evading the warping E). Did everybody from the outset ignore Scotty's rantings? Or did Scotty's phrase actually mean that the ship had an impulse-type powerplant for her warp drive (and didn't bother to mention that the Romulans had a warp drive since every idiot aboard would know that just by looking at her warp nacelles and from the fact that she was THERE)?

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 

Canon is that the Romulans split from the Vulcans before either developed Warp Drive because the Romulans don't have it later. Make of that what you will.

What we know for sure is that the Vulcans had it before us.
The Klingons I've heard a few versions on. At least one says they got it from one of our ships that they captured.
The Romulans had a way to project ships at warp, but a self contained warp drive was what they traded Cloak to the klingons for.

The Bajorans apparently did not have Warp Dive when the Cardassians conquered them. However, they had built ships that travelled FTL due to an anomoly in their system that could carry a ship at FTL speeds to Cardassia.
The Cardassians have probably not had Warp quite as long as Earth, because their empire is a little small and their tech is slightly behind ours.

No clue when the Ferengi got it, but they sold it to the Pakleds.

------------------
You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Canon only says that there was one ship in one episode of which Scotty claimed that "her power is impulse only", which according to Kirk meant "we can outrun them".

So Romulans could have had warp during their secession from Vulcans in three ways:

1) They always had it, and the ship in "BoT" was warp-capable despite what Scotty said

2) They always had it, but this single ship did not require / could not handle simultaneously with the cloak a warp drive and thus was not equipped with it

3) They had it during secession, and then lost it in wars, natural disasters or out of sheer neglect and decay during their version of the Dark Ages

Or then they could have developed warp at any point between secession and "Tin Man" - which AFAIK is the first episode where Romulan warp capability is canonically demonstrated - prior to that, we could have stated that the bird-patterned TOS ships, the Klingon-lend-lease cruisers and the big TNG Warbirds were all impulse-only vessels, and wouldn't have contradicted canon! In no earlier episode were warp factors stated for the Romulan ships, nor VFX shown for warp drive. Oh, one could infer something from the travel times mentioned, but then again, perhaps the distances traveled were simply really short?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Even if we grant Full Impulse as being at (or just under) the speed of light, how many stars are less than one light year from each other? If the Romulans were travelling everywhere at Impulse, there would have been fights over who got to play solitaire.

And perhaps the Rommies were using their quantumn singularity drive in the original BoP, and the primitive old cardboard Enterprise's sensors weren't high-tech enough to notice.

And no-one corrected Scotty because Spock didn't want to admit he made a mistake, and Kirk wouldn't tell his arse from his elbow anyway.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

What's that other measure you use in space travel, C? How does that work?

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

------------------
Remember December '59
The howling wind and the driving rain,
Remember the gallant men who drowned
On the lifeboat, Mona was her name.

And would anyone want to guess as to how big the "Romulan Star empire" would be if it was only capable of 0.25c?

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!
 

Scotty only said: Their power is simple impulse

Impulse = Ffusion
Power =/= Propulsion

So, their ship had fusion power only, but did have warp engines! Why else would the engines look like warp engines??

Therefore, AGAIN, Romulans had FTL in Balance of Terror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 

quote:

---

4/ Someone dropped the Bird of Prey model, and they needed a replacement. Fortunatly, they'd just spent a lot of money building this funky/ugly new design, and this was a prefect opportunity to use is.

I'd vote for 4, personally.

---

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Now, we can just say that Paramount is a bunch of idiots, and that the Okudas made mistakes in the Encyclopedia, but that basicly means we're saying there are no canon sources for data beyond the episodes themselves, and I doubt we really want to go there.
SO: There is no definative answer. deal with it.

------------------
You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Paramount =/= canon
Okuda & co. =< canon (never =>)
Episodes = canon
Movies = canon
Speculations = personal canon

And finally:
All stuff stated above = IMHO

------------------
"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site