Flare Sci-Fi Forums: BORG SPACE

This is topic BORG SPACE in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/440.html

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Exactly How big is Borg Space?

------------------

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

It's ::holds hands apart from each other:: this big, given the known fact that .23 milimeter cubed equals one/ninth of a stellar microscopic parsec with the given parameter of the Technobabble "Okuda 4" Theory as described there. Or is it there?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant

Continuing to boldly go ...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Alternately, Borg space is as big as the volume occupied by Borg cubes, or the volume of spheres with the radius of Borg weapon range and the number equaling the number of cubes. The Borg could be completely nomadic, holding all space and no space. The most permanent form of Borg presence would be a free-floating Unimatrix complex, of which there might be several all around the galaxy.

There isn't any obvious reason why they wouldn't be in total control of the entire galaxy already, so perhaps it's best to simply say that they don't make a big fuss about controlling it. They let other races like humans or Kazon or Founders live in their space as long as they can be harvested for assimilees and nifty technology every now and then.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Er, Darky, could you please stop posting topic headings ALL IN CAPITALS? It's very annoying. Thanks.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

The Voth, Krenim, and Hirogen must be direct neighbors of the Borg, but for some reason they don't have much trouble with them. The Hirogen are nomadic and therefore it is unlikely that they are going to be assimilated as a whole. The Voth seem advanced enough to pose a serious threat to the Borg. I'm not sure about the Krenim whose technology is about equal to the Federation but whose territory is huge in some timelines and should be very inviting to the Borg.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'm willing to believe that the big Krenim empires were capable of defeating the Borg. Probably Annorax didn't have a clear idea of how to make his empires big and powerful - he just tried out various timeline alterations, and only those that involved some neat little invention or coincidence that helped the Krenim defeat the Borg were "accepted". I doubt Annorax could have traced down the finer details of these timelines even if he wanted to, and he may not even have been aware of what it took to defeat the Borg.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Who are the Voth? In what ep?

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

They are the former tenants of Earth - a bunch of intelligent dinosaurs who up and went into deep space in search of a new home. Apparently, they live in a cityship (or several) and would be rather mighty opponents judging by their technology (transporters that can move entire starships). Then again, they may be low in number and uninterested in conquest. They featured in the episode "Distant Origin".

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ah. I missed that one. Well, that can be remedied!

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Please can we get back to the subject please.
According to my calculations Borg Space is approximately 22,000 light years long and 10,000 light years wide. Voyager went through the core of it in "Scorpion I&II" and In "The Gift" Kes threw Voyager towards the Edge of Borg Terriotry.
Kes Gift 80 light years into Borg Space
"The Gift" 9500 light years leap near Borg Space
"The Gift-Hope and Fear" 438 near Borg Space
"Hope and Fear" 300 light years leap near Borg Space
"Hope and Fear-Night" 438 light years near Borg Space
"Night" 2,500 light year leap near Borg Space
"Night"-"Timeless" 200 light years near Borg Space
"Timeless" 10,000 light leap near Borg Space

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Darkstar,

Here on the Forum, it is *ILLEGAL* to stay on subject. Go post something about Kira's sex life, and it'll eventually turn to Borg space, I promise.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

*LOL @ Staying on topic*

------------------
Buffy: "See, this is a school. And we have students and they check out books and then they learn things."
Giles: "I was beginning to suspect that was a myth."
- Buffy: The Vampire Slayer

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

I read a story once about Kira and Dax being lovers.... Odo was a toy, and Bashir was pissing all over himself trying to watch....

------------------
**...****...**

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

"Timeless-Dark Frontier" 438 light years near Borg Space
"Dark Frontier",20,000 light year leap using a transwarp coil 18,000 light years from Borg Space
"Dark Frontier"-"Dragons Teeth" 438 light years 18,438 light years from Borg Space
"Dargons Teeth" 200 light year leap 18,638 light years from Borg Space
"Dragon teeth-The Voyager Conspiracy" 200 light years 18,838 light years from Borg Space
"The Voyager Conspiracy" 600 light year leap 20,438 light years from Borg Space
"The Voyager Conspiracy-Unimatrix Zero One" 438 light 20,876 years from Borg Space
Distace From Ocampa:-45,000 light years

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Borg Space is 50,000 light years from Federation Space.

Dominion Space is 70,000 light years from Federation Space

Borg Space is 50,000 light years from Dominion Space

Dominion Space (wormhole) from Ocampa 60,000 light years

Voyager would have taken 60 or 120 years to get there depending on which warp speed you use. I use Warp 6.2 for her MINIUMUM cruising speed Her MAXIMUM cruising speed is Warp 8 and her Maximum Warp is 9.975 fo 12 hours. (capable of crossing 8 light years in that time)

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I agree with your size figures, Darkstar, but I wonder if this a space with equally distributed Borg planets, ships and outposts. It would be better for plausibility if Borg Space were not a monolithic territory but only some sort of attack range. This might explain why not only in several timelines the Krenim have survived, but also that Annorax never even mentions them. It would also decrease the probability that the Borg and the Voth engage in a war which could destroy both of them.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I still feel Borg space should extend all the way to Earth and beyond. The Borg can move in this area with relative impunity, and according to Picard in "First Contact" they seem to have solidified their hold of the area and actually assimilated some planets there (the "we fall back" speech). It is possible that the density of Borg planets and Cubes is in fact higher near Earth than it is near Voyager's current location. The whole galaxy could be a patchwork of areas of moderate or light Borg influence, even though the only area of heavy influence is in the deep Delta quadrant.

In any case, it seems odd that Borg space would be "lopsided" so that there is little or no Borg influence "Ocampawards" from "Scorpion", then a sudden area of major influence, and then a long "tail" of moderate to light influence Earthwards from "Scorpion". Is this for real?

Or is it just because prior to "Scorpion", the Borg did not contact the Voyager (even though they were lurking nearby) since the ship was uninteresting, but after "Scorpion", they have become interested in the ship and thus cross paths with her so often?

This way or that, I believe that the Borg are everywhere already. They just don't pick fights with the locals unless they have a reason to - and their reasons are too weird for us to comprehend. Thus, we are sometimes fooled into thinking that some areas of space are actually free of Borg influence.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Wait a sec ...

Aren't we supposed to be discussing Kira's sex life?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I think Picards remark was about the worlds the Federation had lost to the Borg. Borg space is in the Delta Quad. System J-25 is in the Beta Quad (7000 light years from Fed Space) and is a Borg colony. the Borg only send ship which are nearby to try and assimilate Earth and don't have to trog all the way from Borg Space to Earth which even at transwarp can take day's to reach (Voyager spendt a day or 2 at transwarp to do it's last big leap.) Borg Space is the biggest known held by one race. (Federation Space would fit in 22 times length ways and 10 width ways)
Earth will never fall to the Borg while Seven or Picard is alive.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Picard and Mac meet in the 27th century....
There can only be ONE......

------------------
**...****...**

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited November 23, 2000).]

Posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh (Member # 318) on :

Darkstar: Nice research.

Quasi-Realistic Analysis of The Borg Space Problem:
I think that in order to get a feel for the territories occupied by various parties it is important to realise that with 3 dimensional space there are huge numbers of possibe shapes, orientations and volumes.

When planet-dwelling species, used to thinking in 2 dimensions, take to space, it becomes much harder to control territory (think of how much harder it is to corner something in 3d than in 2d), a point made by Iain Banks in his explanation of the Culture: http://www.phlebas.com/text/cultnote.html .

This situation makes the whole process of controlling territory prohibitively difficult (for our primitive minds). However, certain simplifications occur in galaxies like our own.

1. The Milky Way is approximately a disc (spiral to be more exact). This reduces the quantity of space governed in the z direction (if we take the z direction to be the axis of rotation of the disc in either cylindrical or cartesian coordinate systems) to mere light years, especially at the edges. I am unfortunately not familiar with exactly how the galactic quadrants are positioned in relation to the galaxy itself (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), so further analysis of this isn't possible at the moment.

2. Due to the disc-like nature of the galaxy, an inclination to expand along the plane of the disc might be most probable in space faring planet dwellers.

These approximations may not apply to the Borg. In the case of the first point, position in the galaxy is important, as the galaxy has a substantially more spherical shape near the centre. In the case of the second point, it might not be correct to assume that the Borg collective would have the same perception of territory as other species, being an amalgam of other races. This is all providing the Borg do actually maintain a territory (as per Timo's point about the possible nomadic nature of the Borg).

If, however, these approximations do apply to the Borg and they can be assumed to maintain a planar territory, it shouldn't be too difficult to find the position and shape of Borg territory if you have a few reference points and use Darkstar's data (and have a lot of time on your hands).

This is my first serious Star Trek related post so if there's something obvious I've wrongly assumed don't take it personally and flame me.

------------------
"Investigator of skullduggery,though quite lenient on buggery"

[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited November 23, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's important to remember that the Borg, being a collective mind, is likely to approach issues of territory in a way incomprehensible to such benighted species as our own.

I suggest that we define Borg space not as an area within which every planet is controlled by them, but as that area in which they could exercise control if they so choosed. Considering the speed of their transwarp drives and conduits and who knows what else, I'd say Borg space could, in theory, envelop the entire galaxy.

As to why they haven't, well, who knows why something like the Borg would do anything? My favorite pet theory is that the Collective has a sense of aesthetics magnified by its billions of eyes, and has spread itself throughout those regions of space that give it the most pleasing and useful view of the galaxy. What we (or Starfleet) might consider to be a haphazard scattering of ships and stations and planets might in fact come together in some highly intricate pattern visible only when you're capable of looking at all of it at once.

------------------
What did it mean to you
An early chat with death
To pull your body for a moment from your soul
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

What if Borg space could be compared to the quantum mechanical model of the atom. The closer you get to Unimatrix One, the higher the odds of encountering Borg instillations and vessels.

------------------
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

-Lord Darth Vader (Star Wars: A New Hope)

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The Borg are a probability wave? Interesting... :-)

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

Ooh... A thread with both Trek geography and the Krenim!

Okay, Borg space... I've actually dealt with this a bit because whenever someone sees a map based on my parametric equations, their first statement is always "Isn't Borg space a little small?" So, I basically divided up the galaxy into three zones:

1. Borg Space. Borg space is just that. You won't find many (if any) non-assimilated worlds here. This is also probably where Unimatrix One is. This is basically the area Kes flung Voyager across in "The Gift."

2. Borg Zone of Influence. A much larger area of space in which the Borg are not the dominant power, but have cubes and spheres and such around that can and do assimilate peoples and technology. Basically, this space begins around the Nekrit Expanse and goes all the way to where Voyager is now, although I may very well wind up stretching all the way to Earth as the final season progresses.

3. Non-Borg Territory. That's not to say Borg don't exist in these parts, its just that ships are very few and far between for whatever reason.

As for near-Borg cultures like the Voth, Krenim, and Hirogen? Well, the Voth are probably capable of fending off Borg attacks, considering how they have huge ships with transwarp drives and cloaking devices. The Hirogen are scattered throughout the quadrant, so assimilating them wholesale is pretty much impossible. I think the idea was raised in a recent Trek book (that National Geographic-like book, I can't remember the name) that the reason the Hirogen are scattered like they are is because of a Borg attack, and they survived El-Aurian style.

And the Krenim? Here's what we know to be canon:

1. As of "Year of Hell, Part II," the Krenim Imperium is a large power with big warships, but part of its territory was in dispute with someone else.

2. The Borg have assimilated at least one Krenim, as seen in "Infinite Regress."

Is it possible the agressor in the current timeline was the Borg, instead of the Zahl? Maybe. It might explain the reference in "Infinite Regress." Then again, the Borg seem to have picked off humans other than the Wolf 359 incident, so the Borg wouldn't have had to assimilate the Imperium wholesale to get one Krenim. But you've got me as to how the Imperium stands up to the Borg, they don't appear to have a serious tactical advantage other than chroniton torpedoes, which the Borg can probably adapt to.

------------------
Kang/Kodos in '04!

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I think some Borg vessels are sent out of Borg Space on scouting missions for newworlds to assimilate. with Borg veseels easily able to sustain Warp 9.99+ I could easily say that after the Kes Gift,slipstream,Vortex,Quantumslipstream and transwarp that the main reason Voyager keeps running into Borg cubes and Borg Spheres is that they are on scouting missions to find new worlds to assimilate.
Question
With Voyager's maximum warp being Warp 9.975 could she outrun a Borg Cube?
With Defiant's maximum warp being Warp 9.982 could she outrun a Borg Cube?

_______________________________________________________

"You might think that I can't take it but you're wrong"- Britney Spears-Stronger

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Well I doubt it for two reasons:

1) The Borg have transwarp and can appear anywhere they wish.

2) The Borg may use weapons on either ship to take the warp drive off-line.

------------------
"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Darkstar: I've ne'er heard about the Defiant being faster than Voyager. 9.82 sounds more fair.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

Plus the borg can maintain at warp 9.999+ a lot longer than voyager or the defiant can.

------------------
"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The Defiant's top-warp speed has never been said on screen. The highest that's been shouted out is (I think) "Warp 9". DS9 writers, possibly in common with the show being the least "tech" out of the three modern shows, tend to just have the characters say "maximum warp".

Also, I don't recall a Borg Cube ever going at Warp 9.99+. The Borg cube in BoBW went at Warp 9.6 (since the Enterprise kept up with it for a short time). Voyager followed one with no trouble in Scorpion, p2 (I doubt it was going at warp 9.975. No-one complained about pushing the engines). And they have transwarp conduits anyway, which negates the need for SuperGoFast Warp drives.

In fact, I always thought that Voyager's top speed was so high because it was designed to outrun the Borg.

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I thought that Transwarp was the SuperGoFast warp drive. I think Locutus let the Enterprise keep up.

------------------
Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

The DS9 Tech manual say that the Defiant can sustain warp 9.982 for 12 hours and warp 9 is it's cruising speed. The Borg were using the warpage in BOBW as the Enterprise was pursing them across Federation Space and that the Enterprise kept following them only for 12 hours and then dropped to impulse and the Borg kept on going at warp. The speed in Scorpion IandII I think was warp 9.9 which Voyager can easily sustain but only for a limited time ie 3 days and then drop to impulse.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Warpage? That's a new one. Can you have gravy on the side?

The DS9TM is not good reference-material, or so I've been told.

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh (Member # 318) on :

Getting back to the Borg Space issue for a moment, I recently saw the Voyager episode "Course:Oblivion" (I think that's the name), where the chromo duplicate of Voyager is nearing the alpha q, and I noticed there was a fairly good map of the galaxy in the astrometrics lab. If someone could get a hold of the screenshot it might make it easier to estimate the size of Borg space.

------------------
"Investigator of skullduggery,though quite lenient on buggery"

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

The Voyager in Course:Obvilion was travelling @ warp 9.975+ and seemed to be covering thousands of lights years in a matter of weeks! We can say that with the modifications to it's warp drive, It didn't do EPISODES:-
Night
Hope and Fear
Timeless
Dark Frontier
Dragons Teeth
The Voyager Conspiracy
I can say that this Voyager got to within 15,000 (52,370 from Class Y planet where it was created) (2 years@our Voyager maximum warp) light years of Earth Before turning Back. And as it got closer to Our Voyager current posiston cruising along @warp 6.2(30,000+ light years from Earth)

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

See, see! I told you so! Borg cubes don't have transwarp drives. Or else Janeway would have taken one already. She had lot of opportunies like the Cube in Unity, or the Scorpion 15-Cube scrapheap.

Maybe Cubes have to much mass or something to remain in a slipstream. That can also explain why the Borg also have smaller ships.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The only problem is that the Borg rocketted away from the Enterprise right after capturing Picard at Warp 9.6. He wasn't Locutus at this time. There was no reason in the collectives mind to allow the Enterprise to keep up (they'd got what they wanted), so the only reason the Borg cube stayed at warp 9.6 is either that's it's maximum speed, or that's it most "efficient" speed.

Transwarp as in Excelsior and ParisFish is SuperGoFaster Warp drive. The Borg use Transwarp conduits, which are more like a series of mini wormholes (or hyperspace).

What is the top speed the Borg have been shown to fly at in normal warp, on screen, and in dialogue?

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I think Borg Cubes do have transwarp coils and are capable of entering transwarp. The reason Janeway didn't steal any in Scorpion ptI is that the crew didn't know where they are When Seven came aboard she had the information to say where the transwarp coils are. Borg Cubes are the Borg's frontline ships and it would be rediculous to only equip Borg Sphere's (with limited defenses)with transwarp coils. The Borg have a vast area under their control which with warp technology would take years to cross-hence transwarp.
When Voyager used the transwarp coil in Dark Frontier she was travelling @warp 9.9999+(transwarp 4) and crossed 20,000 light years in 12 hours. Borg Cubes due to their huge size are stuck towards the lower end of transwarp 5 (ie able to cross 7000 light years in a year=BOBW)(transwarp 2.5) Voyager's maximum warp allow it to cross 6000 light years in a year but this is nowhere near transwarp and plus they're would be restriction on her engines and fuel supllies Voyager was using Warp 6.2 up until Scorpion but after Borg modifications in Scorpion increased to Warp 8(even this was used only when neccesary. Voyager used warp 6.5 afterwards so it would get clear of Borg Space.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

quote:
she was travelling @warp 9.9999+(transwarp 4)

The Norway Class is a diplomatic cruiser.

The Akira Class is from 2374.

The Sovereign Class is the replacement for the Galaxy class.

------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Is this just completely random information, UM, or is there a point in here somewhere?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Yes. On both counts.

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
Voyager's maximum warp allow it to cross 6000 light years in a year but this is nowhere near transwarp and plus they're would be restriction on her engines and fuel supllies Voyager was using Warp 6.2 up until Scorpion but after Borg modifications in Scorpion increased to Warp 8(even this was used only when neccesary.

I remember when I was younger and still in school, there was this wonderful class I took called English. In this class, I learned all sorts of wonderful things like grammar, punctuation, spelling, run-on sentences, diction, and most importantly, coherency. I sure do miss that class.

------------------
Homer: "I'm not normally a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me, Superman!"

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited November 30, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Now, now, people, let's not argue about who spelled who.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Yes. Let us still argue over my VERY IMPORTANT POINT about why, if the Borg can do Warp 9.9999fish999, why'd they only do warp 9.6 in BoBW?

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Because Borg CUBES don't have transwarp capability

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Borg Cubes Do Have a low Transwarp cababilty.

How Come the Borg Cube in BOBW manage to cross 7000 light years in a year at standard warp 9.6?
This journey at that speed would have taken 3.5 years (hence Picard's comment's about them having a power source superioror to our own-BOBW pt 1.)

Borg Sphere's have a higher transwarp ability and can cross distances of thousands of light years in a few hours.
Voyager is small enough to cross 20,000 light years in 12 hours.
Look at the size of Lore's ship in TNG"Descent I&II" that is bigger then a standard Borg Cube and it entered Transwarp! The Enterprise crossed 60,000 light years after it in a few hours

Boo to you who think Borg Cube don't have transwarp!!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Darkstar: Sure, but that's still no proof that Cubes do have transwarp.

Now let me thrash my own theory:
In Scorpion Harry set the scanners to look for transwarp signatures. He found 15 Cubes at about 5 lightyears or so, they overtook Voyager in mere minutes.

But they were visible in normal space...

Also the Borg have 2 types of Transwarp:
1: A corridor on a fixed location (look at the episode where Isheb is discovered as having the pathogen).
2: A drive (Spheres, and Queen's Yacht).

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

::gets booed, pulls out BFG, annihilates thread::

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

You will be assimilated, resistance is futile!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Any ship with the least bit of adaptability can enter a transwarp conduit, having an independent drive is another thing.
Could the bobbie-cube have made the major part of the journey by preset conduit, dropping it a distance from the target, then used a standard drive for manouverability?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by warbird5 on :

The Enterprise never traveled 60,000 light yrs in descent, the actual figure is much smaller

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's quite possible that the conduit from "Descent" was the used by the cube in BoBW.

Also, I'd go so far as to give the Borg three kinds of transwarp, though the third is a little iffy.

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited December 01, 2000).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Transwarp is basically just a general term for anything faster than warp, no matter how it works, isn't it?

------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

No. (Otherwise why co-axial warp or the quantum slipstream?)

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Yes!

Sorry I Just lost my chain of thought! The Enterprise crossed 50,000+ light years in Descent. Borg Cubes have the abilty to open transwarp conduits to get to specific locations(ie J-25 to Federation space, I think there was more then one Borg Cube there)then coast in on normal warp(however long it takes). In BOBW the fact the Borg Cube was travelling @ warp 9.6 proves nothing but the fact it was the most "efficient" speed for them to use(it wasn't like they were in a rush,it toke 8+ days to get from the border to Earth).

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

But...if that was the most "efficient" speed, why were they travelling at warp 9.3 (I think) when the Enterprise first detected them? Hmm?

Where'd the 8 days figure come from? Was that Hanson saying how long ago the, er, ship I can't remember had detected a "cube shaped" ship? (Jeez, don't these Starfleet captains pay attention to anything? Starfleet had been 'slightly worried' about the Borg for over a year, and he still didn't recognise them?).

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Well, Adm. Hanson says Starfleet help is six days away when he relays the news of the recent destruction of the Lalo. After that, Picard moves to intercept and we basically lose the sense of time. The time it took Picard to intercept was not given, nor the time the Earthward trip eventually took.

One could say that the trip towards Earth must have taken 6+ days, since it was performed by the Enterprise, a Starfleet ship - and Starfleet was supposed to be capable of spanning the trip in 6 days at best. And while the E-D did have to abandon the chase very soon because she couldn't maintain the necessary high warp (probably not more than a couple of hours), eventually the ship did catch up with the Borg before they reached Earth.

BTWN, the Lalo seemed to be a freighter (at least she was on a freight run), so perhaps the captain wasn't quite as well informed about potential future threats as a warship captain might have been.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Actually, the Enterprise gave up chase because it had just fired it's Big Blue Beam, and had to pause for repairs. It managed to catch up to the Borg because they stopped before they reached Earth.

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Gee, look, 50 of 10,000, the biggest ball of twine in the galaxy, lets take a picture of you and the boys assimilating it.

Why'd they stop?

------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

You know, all those ships flying about at Wolf 359 ...

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

"Look, 1st of 23,541, starships! Pretty starships! Can I blow them to bits? Can I? Can I?"

Why did 1st of 23,541 listen to 23,541st of 23,541? Couldn't 1st just have flown past or through them and left them perform another futile chase? I guess the Cube wanted to use Wolf 359 as fly paper, collecting all the nearby ships to that location for easy destruction so that they wouldn't bother it near Earth. But why did Starfleet help the Cube in this plan? And how did they plan on forcing the Cube out of warp? Normally these big bad alien ships that like to chase the Enterprise at warp can take a *lot* of punishment before dropping to impulse - and the Borg cube didn't even tickle when the E-D fired torps at it in "Q Who?", an incident all Starfleet tactical planning was based on.

BTW, Riker decided to fire the Big Blue Beam because his ship was on the verge of breaking down and could not have maintained the chase much longer. Worf specified this in dialogue.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

It's been a loooooong time since I have seen any of the eps we discuss, I really need to get ahold of my brother have get his tapes from him, he's got most of them already.

------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

For me, BoBW is an episode I probably know more than any other. So I can confidently say that is was Wesley, not Worf, who said that "if the Borg mantain their current speed we'll be forced to discontinue pursuit and power down in less time than it's taken for people to throw stuff at me".

I've never got how ships force each other ouyt of warp. A similar thing happens in Sacrifice of Angels. Sisko is desperate to get to DS9 as fast as possible, so he deceided to have a big fight at Impulse first, and then only warps away after he shoots the Big Impressive Cruiser. Couldn't the fleet have just warped right on past? Or are all Jem'Hadar ships faster than the Defiant? (If so, couldn't it have warped past cloaked?).

Maybe ships have to drop to Impulse when near other ships, due to supspace distortaions, or the fact that they've spend a lot of mone yon this, and we want to see it, damnit.

------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I don't think the borg had transwarp conduit technology in Best of Both Worlds.

After at least a thousand years of doing the old assimilation thing, they have to be fairly efficient about quickly adapting and distributing new tech throughout the collective. So basically they assimilated a ship/race with transwarp capability sometime between BBW and Descent.

When I first saw Descent many years ago, I didn't think that the ship was a borg vessel in the first place. I always figured it was something they had to steal(note steal--not assimilate) after being cut off from the collective. This may have been because they accidently destroyed their cube in the confusion after being cut off (or else an opportunistic enemy did).

------------------
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes
decide everything." -Joseph Stalin

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Except that we know that the Borg had transwarp conduits well before BoBW thanks to "Dark Frontier", and that Lore's ship design was, if not originated by the Borg, at least in general use by them, thanks to "Scorpion".

Now, you can argue that DF yanked the rug out of everything previously stated about the Borg, and you'd be right. But, then, so did BoBW.

------------------
I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Seven stated that borg transwarp is similar to slipstream. That makes it very quick. A conduit is something different again.

Why did the Borg take so long to reach the Federation after the J-25 encounter? Well they accessed the Enterprises computer and noted the relevant facts about the Federation whilst they were there. Then, they scheduled it into their existing tasks.

------------------
Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

9:00am: Dust
9:13am: Fix Breakfast for Collective
10:00am: Pay power bill
10:25am: Assimilate Federation
11:00am: Watch "Jerry Springer"

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Come the millennium, month 12,
In the home of greatest power,
The village idiot will come forth
To be acclaimed the leader
--Nostradamus, 1555
***
"Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is - I'm not sure 80 percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president." - George W. Bush
"

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Hey, you forgot to drop the kiddies off at school.

------------------
Three important questions to ask an alien before having sex:
(1) Are you carrying any diseases which might be communicable to humans?
(2) Have you had sex with any high-risk partners in the past six months?
(3) Which one is your mouth?

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Damn, do they need packed lunch. Or is the canteen open today?

------------------
Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

I think they need a packed lunch... damn what's today? I forget what their lunch schedule says.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

the lunch menu says:

soup: irrelevant
sandwiches: irrelevant
snacks: irrelevant
drinks: irrelevant
dessert: chocolate mousse

------------------
"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

No, NO! Today is curry, I'm sure.

------------------
Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Ok, curry it is then. And the chocolate mousse.