Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Mirror Universe

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

Anyone got any opinions on how the Dominion and Borg might fare in the Mirror Universe? Perhaps they're good guys? Perhaps the changelings still got persecuted and so the Dominion is still evil. And surely the mirror AQ powers would stand more of a chance against the Borg, being more war-like.

Thoughts?

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Depends. You see, the "Mirror Universe" as you know it is a pale imitation of the original. In the TOS epsiode "Mirror, Mirror" and Diane Carey's novel "Dark Mirror" the parallel universe is depicted as one which is completely at odds with our own - the very nature of humanity is warped into something evil. Then along comes DS9 which turns it into a nice little excuse for the actors to be a little different for a change. Result? Your average Alternate character is maybe a little less moral, and needs a shave.

It's a waste. Remember what all those crewmen on the ISS Enterprise were like? Complete cunts, to be frank. I'd like to see an Alternate Miles O'Brien who's a version of that, not the wimp we got instead.

I've not read the last couple of Shatner's books which I gather feature the Mirror Universe being far more like the original - is this the case? And does it contravene the 'canon' history now established by DS9, or do they explain it away convincingly (or not)?

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

This is one area that they never touched on in the mirror universe arch that was wide open for some interesting storytelling: The Prophets, The Dominion, the Jem'Hadar. All these coul've been addressed but never were. The Dominion is probably alot like our Federation and the Jem'Hadar are like Police or something. My guess is that the Prophets are the same ones as ours. They see the Mirror Universe but disregard it because it isn't the "real" universe.

I agree that DS9's version is a little toned down, but remember, the Terrans in this universe have been under the boot of the Alliance for years and years. That's bound to breed out some of the angst. I think they tried to make up for mirror humanity's sudden lack of permeating evil, though, by making a rule that every woman in the mirror universe is a bondage-loving lesbian.

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

...which will possibly be shown more fully in the two "Dark Passions" books, set in the DS9 Mirror Universe, due out right about now.

as for the Shatnerverse Mirror books, well, Kirk remained a baddie in the mirror universe right up until the end. He killed and stuffed little Balok, had Chekov stuck inside the agony booth until he mummified, and had most of the rest of his senior staff's necks stretched in front of SF Headquarters in a purge.

It was Spock that got the Empire conquered, and I figure 70-odd years of slavery would pretty much make ANY species a bit downtrodden... all the agressive humans would have been killed off or recruited by the Alliance by now.

There's a few interesting bits about the Mirrorverse for the now-largely-defunct LUG Star Trek Role-Playing Game floating around the internet, including a couple pages on Mirror-Andoria.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 29, 2000).]

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
You see, the "Mirror Universe" as you know it is a pale imitation of the original.

Yes, I completely agree. I never liked the bastardization DS9 turned the mirror universe into.
Although Diane Duane's mirror universe book was a bit sappy at times (that dolphin crew member, uuggh), I still liked the fact that the Enterprise crew had duplicates that were diametrically opposite to their own morals and values.

I always thought the mirror Spock was going to change the empire for the better. Wasn't that the whole point of the TOS episode?
So what does DS9 do? They say that Spock brought down the empire and caused an even worse Alliance to take over. What were they trying to say, that evil will always triumph over good?

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"Although I do not know how World War III will be fought, I do know how World War IV will be fought - with rocks and clubs." -Albert Einstein

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Or look at it this way.

Spock DID change the Empire for good. But all the races that the Empire crushed saw an opportunity and did to the former-Empire what had once been done to them.

The morale is, "treat others as you would like to be treated."

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

Of course, not everything was 'reversed'. Spock was still a logical man, rather than a pre-Surak style savage. Also, the Halkans were peaceful in both.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

*slaps head* Diane Duane! Fuck!

All in all, it's just as well we never got to see the Modern Mirror equivalent of the Borg or the Prophets. The former would probably still assimilate people, but ask nicely first; The latter - do you know, I can't imagine what they'd be like, but you know TPTB would screw it up somehow.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

In the ShatnerMirrorverse, the thing which caused the timeline divergence appears to be that in the mirrorverse Cochrane spoke to other people about the Borg having attacked just before First Contact, which led to the Federation taking a more militaristic, paranoid, start (that is, If I understood the story).

Of course, the borg came from the Regular Federation's future, which means that there's a causal loop and a half there...

The Borg in THAT universe were encountered and eliminated some time previous to the story's setting. Apparently, the Prophets never revealed themselves in the Mirrorverse. Can you blame them? So it's likely the Mirrorverse had never heard of the Dominion.

From what I gather, the Mirrorverse is kind of like Earth-2 (or was it 3?) from the old DC continuity (and the recent graphic novel). Evil, rather than good, always wins. It's endemic to the nature of things in that universe.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

There's some of us here on AOL that have continued along the Duane path & created a Terran Empire Simming Association. I myself serve as helmcat (I'm a Sadrao) for the ISS Wraith in 2298.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

People are complaining here about DS9 not being true to the original series concept of the mirror universe. They were dead on - even talking about Spock and Kirk... it was explained that the alternate Federation was 'turned' by the alternate Spock... that plus generations of Terrans being locked up for over 100 years would not let us have the "cunts" that were the mirror universe federation people. Although it seems to be that it was only the Terrans that were "downtrodden" the Vulcans seem to have stayed the same - see Spock and Tuvok - he is essentially still Tuvok... although not part of a Starfleet, but definately against the Alliance.

Now I'm wondering, is Bajor part of this 'Alliance' or is Kira a part of it on her own accord?

The Klingons maybe part of the Alliance but they are cowardice and have no sense of honour.

The Cardassians seem to have some sort of upper hand

The Ferengi are kind and helpful - a la Quark and Brunt. The characters aren't diametrically opposite they're just - different.

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

quote:
by making a rule that every woman in the mirror universe is a bondage-loving lesbian.

Well at least that was always my favorite part about the DS9 mirror universe.

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

That's what they call the payoff. The DS9 Mirror Universe is pants, but it's got bondage-loving lesbians so everyone likes it. Voyager is shite, but it's got some Californian beach bimbo in a silver outfit, so everyone likes it. Christ only knows what they'll put in Series 5. No doubt whoever Braga's fucking by then.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Never have I seen a more accurate assessment outside of Entertainment Weekly!

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Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

If in the Mirror Universe, with everyone and everything different if not by much, the Borg could be nice.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile only if you wish it that way. Do you wish to be assimilated? If so, your biological and technological distinctiveness would be added to our own. Thank you for our cooperation. Have a nice day."

That would be something to see.

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

LOL!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Tsk tsk Andy, have you not watched all the mirror universe episodes?

"Now I'm wondering, is Bajor part of this 'Alliance' or is Kira a part of it on her own accord?"

Yes, Bajor is part of it. "Fairly important" members too, is how I believe Kira puts it.

"The Klingons maybe part of the Alliance but they are cowardice and have no sense of honour."

They are definetly part of it. Did you look at the sign of the alliance? It's a merging of the Klingon and Cardassian symbols.

"The Cardassians seem to have some sort of upper hand"

I never got that impression. The most important Alliance person we saw was Worf, who is (surprisingly), a Klingon.

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Posted by warbird5 on :

And Garak was very submissive to Worf so I'm guessing the Klingons are the doiminant partner.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Gark was submissive to Worf because he (Garak) had just lost control of a fairly large space station, of which he was second in command. And he had misplaced his superior officer.

And he was in chains.

And Worf was (apparently) leader of the Klingon part of the alliance.

I don't blame him for being submissive.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
Christ only knows what they'll put in Series 5. No doubt whoever Braga's fucking by then.

Series 5 probably won't start out that way, but sometime around the third or fourth season when the ratings start to drop, I'm sure they'll do exactly that.

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"Although I do not know how World War III will be fought, I do know how World War IV will be fought - with rocks and clubs." -Albert Einstein

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Wait, Worf is a Klingon?!?!?!

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Representatives of the Original Federation, namely Captain Picard, and Commander Riker, and the crew of the Enterprise-D went to the delta quadrant and ran into the Borg there. The Mirror Universe probably does not have that kind of record.

Representatives of the Original Federation, namely Captain Sisko and Jadzia Dax discovered the Wormhole. The Mirror universe does not even know whether or not the wormhole exists. And the mirror Bajorans are not even religious enough (and too busy with each other) to care.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"Christ only knows what they'll put in Series 5. No doubt whoever Braga's fucking by then."

"Series 5 probably won't start out that way, but sometime around the third or fourth season when the ratings start to drop, I'm sure they'll do exactly that."

Are you implying that in 1996 Braga was making sweet monkey love with Michael Dorn?

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I thought that was common knowledge already.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I doubt anything involving Brannon Braga can be classified as "sweet". "Monkey", sure, but not "sweet"...

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I don't think Braga was ever involved with DS9. . ?

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

::Pictures Braga and Dorn ... together ...::

I need a drink.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

That's what Dorn said. 8)

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I think Dorn needed quite a few drinks. And a lubricant.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Vogon: I was making a joke about how, in the forth season of both shows, new characters were bought in to "add spice". On the one hand, we got a very attractive woman with big tits in a very tight costume, and on the other hand, we got a man with a cornish pastie stuck to his head.

If you're going to nitpick it though, then I will make my jokes so simple even Omega won't be able to misinterpret them.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Oh, how sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a protege who suddenly thinks he's funnier. . .

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"...I will make my jokes so simple even Omega won't be able to misinterpret them."

I'm not sure that's possible. Even if you said "Why did the chicken cross the road?", Omega would think it was either because Yahweh told it to, or because a crime was going on across the street, and the chicken was going to use its gun to shoot the perpetrator. Or a crime was going on, and Yahweh told the chicken to shoot the perpetrator...

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Liam! Yuppers I've seen all the episodes of DS9, I don't remember Kira's line though... although that maybe just that it is one line among many... BUT! If the Bajjies are such important members - why is it that we have only ever seen 3 of them in the mirror universe...

Kira (Intendent), Bariel and Leeta!?!

The Klingons were shown to be complete dolts in "Crossover" and quite scared of Kira/Intendent... well who they thought was Kira/Intendent...

The Logo of the Alliance - seems to have Klingons and Cardassian - but if you look closely I reckon that the Bajoran logo is in there too... why else have the wings and the circle except? unless its to signify the Cardassians smothering/controlling the Klingons...

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

First question you gotta ask is, what's an Intendant? Is she Intended for something? If so, what? I'd say the reason we've seen so few Bajorans is that they're all too lazy or decadent or whatever, and have better things to do at home than hang around on mining stations. Maybe the Intendant is only there because she gets plenty of opportunity to satisfy her bizarre carnal appetites. On Bajor, people to torture may be at a premium, while on Terok Nor she has them on tap 24 hours a day.

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

To... boldy go where... no... chicken has... gone before!

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-Thomas Jefferson

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Watched "Chicken Run" recently, have we?