Flare Sci-Fi Forums: How old are the Borg?

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

According to both 'The Omega Directive' and 'Dragons Teeth' the Borg should only be about 1000 years old.

Yet in 'Q, Who?' a much MUCH larger number of years is mentioned.

Either they've started to assimilate species until 'recently' (in the Borg existance that is...) or it's another of Voyagers changes to the Borg epic timeline...

I don't think it takes 10,000 or 100,000 (or whatever was said in 'Q, Who?') years to meet 125 species. Even worst: The Borg Queen is of species 125, which they only met about 900 years ago...

Still they could have changed tactics or something...

Any speculations on this subject? I really like to know what you think of this.

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"That's your plan? Wile E. Coyote would come up with a better plan than that!"
- Crighton, Farscape.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

WE ARE THE BORG.
WE ARE SIXTEEN, GOING ON SEVENTEEN. . .

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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"

Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Perhaps the Borg aren't native to our galaxy? It'd make sense. As of a millenium ago, they'd still only have assimilated a handful of systems, but they could still be hundreds of millenia old. Once they assimilated an entire galaxy, what's left to do but go on to the next one? Transwarp would be useful for that. Now whether the different galactic collectives are in contact with each other is a different question all together. Perhaps ours is the only one that's really malevolant, due to some sort of malfunction.

This would make them a kind of universal plague.

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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I thought it was more or less established fairly early on that the Borg originated in the Delta Quad.

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"Content, graphics, and design are © 1999-2000 by The Solareclipse Network"
-And no-one even noticed the typo...
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I think that was always the implication, but then Voyager meddled with the timeline again by having the Vaaudwar say what they said. Now, "hundreds of Millenia" ago, as Guinan said, they were probably just in their early stages of what they are now. They weren't nearly as sophisticated and had probably just become some sort of small collective for the first time. They may not have even had interstellar travel at the time. But after they became a collective, I would think that things would prgress pretty quickly from there.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Or maybe they were from another galaxy.

Did anyone ever actually SAY that the Borg ORIGINATED in the DQ?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, wasn't Voyager rather far beyond "Borg Central" by the time of "Dragon's Teeth" (or "Tooth", or whatever-the-hell it was called)? Perhaps it took the Borg until a millenium prior just to get to there. Until that point, maybe they were expanding in other directions.

Who knows? Maybe they found a wormhole to somewhere in a totally different part of the galaxy, and they were assimilating over there. There might be two pockets of densely-populated Borg space in the galaxy...

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I just read Timo's post in the other thread where he mentions that "hundreds of millennia" suggests an age of 200 000 to 900 000 years, and it made me think of something. I checked, and the Iconian civilization was destroyed about 200 000 years earlier. What if there could be a connection? A large group of Iconians transport themselves to the delta quadrant where they end up becoming/creating the Borg.

I know it's just wild speculation, but it's kind of neat. Better than the V'ger theory, IMO... :-)

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I've never read it, but that's the general plot of one of those Peter David novels, isn't it? That the Borg are indeed hundreds of thousands of years old and had swallowed almost the entire galaxy before being driven back by the Preservers and others?

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Hey, that sounds like a good novel.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

"Vendetta," wasn't it?

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Maybe a good "What If..." depending on how well the story is executed then it would become canon I hope.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Vendetta! Yes, that's it.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I know there's some book out there that says the giant planet killer from TOS was originally built to destroy the Borg. Probably the same book. I like that theory.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well if that constitution-class was enough to stuff it full then the borg prolly wouldn't have hesitated for shit to shove two fully manned borg scout-ships into its mouth. All is expendable.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Aban: Yep, same book.

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :

Don't know if this helps, but in one of the books {The Return, by *William Shatner* hmmmm} captian kirk is brought back to life by the borg for their own nefarious purposes. Later on, it was mentioned that the Borg became, eh, the Borg when Veeger (the voyager thing from the original Star trek movie) assimilated them. I don't remember all the details of it, but they escaped with a new understanding of perfection, and all that. If this particular book is "Star Trek Canon" (which i'll freely admit I doubt) then that places the borg as being only a few hundred years old in their current state.

Not too hard to imagine, I suppose. With the exception of that altenative bio-universe and species 5768 (whatever the # was) nothing in any of the series has been able to stop full scale Borg invasions...so they could have easily swept the delta quadrant in only three hundred years.

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Between the idea and the reality, comes the Shadow

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The book was indeed "Vendetta" by Peter David. And the machine from "Doomsday" was only the prototype of the actual weapon. The weapon itself turned out to be one bad ass son of a bitch which destroyed a couple of Borg cubes without breaking a sweat.

"I am Vastator -- of Borg!"

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 09, 2001).]

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

FACTS ABOUT THE BORG

AGE:-3000 YRS+

CONTACTS WITH ALPHA QUADRANT

2293:- Assimilate El-Auria a Planet some 1500 light years from Federation Space.

2350's Hanson's set out to find Borg. They travel some 3000 light years away from Federation Space when They encounter a Borg Cube. They track it for 9 months and follow and study the Borg cube and drones. They then follow it into a transwarp conduit and end up in the Delta Quadrant appox 63,000 light years from Federation Space.

2365 Starfleet's first contact with Borg in system J-25 some 7000 light years from Federation Space.

December 2366-Jan 2367 Borg found in Federation Space. All out war with them which lasts for a week+.

2368 Borg found in Argolis Sector. A region on the Alpha Quadrant border with Cardassian Union.

2369 Descent I&II

2371 Voyager abducted to Delta Quadrant.

December 2373 Voyager enters Borg Space.

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

You missed the destroyed Federation and Romulan outposts.

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"That's your plan? Wile E. Coyote would come up with a better plan than that!"
- Crighton, Farscape.

Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :

You also forgot the Battle of Sector 001 and intended modification of the Federation timeline during 2373 and 2063.

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Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, No escape from reality

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

*garakspeak* Very perceptive, doctor.

Welcome to the forums. I, at least, haven't see you before. Is your name really Jonas?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

There's an album I haven't listened to in awhile.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Speaking of whom, where IS Garak, anyway? I don't think I've seen him post in a while...

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

He's one of those people that actually has a life outside of the internet, unlike some of us...

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Two atoms walk into a bar. One atom says to the other atom:
"I've lost an electron!"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive!"

Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :

Welcome to the forums. I, at least, haven't see you before. Is your name really Jonas?

I wish It's just my nickname. I used Bashir, and then I added the name to be a little different. But that's a long story. And I'm new, indeed. You notice the new members quite quickly... thanks for the welcome.

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Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, No escape from reality

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I ask myself how I would like to be approached when I first arrive to a new place. A bad atmosphere encourages cynicism, and that's no fun at all, is it?

------------------
Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

A brief history

Q mentioned millions of years. This could refer to the original species who matured into the Borg. This species has vanished into the Borg Collective and is no longer known. Question is, are they species one or are they species zero? Q places the USS Enterprise into the domain of the Borg, which is in the Delta Quadrant. This action may or may not prove the Delta Quadrant as the origen of the Borg.

When the original species had matured into the Borg and had space travel, the species left their home world in the 15th Century (Old Earth Calender). They began the process of scouting and assimilating species.

Either in the 23rd or 24th Century (Old Earth Calender), the Borg encounter the United Federation of Planets. The 23rd Century can be considered if you accept that Archanis 4, a planet on the fringes of Federation space in the mid-23rd Century, was attacked by a Borg cube. I think that as a possibility that Archanis 4 could be the victim of the attack for several reasons. One, the colomy was identified as attacked and the colonists killed or missing. Two, the Klingons, though suspected, were never proved to be the attackers and there were was no evidence
of Klingon methods. Third, in this decade, the Borg are known to be near Federation space. The El Aurelian world is near Federation space. Fourth, the Borg are known to travel through the Beta Quadrant to reach the Federation. All of these factors make me think that the Borg could have destroyed the Archanis Four colony.

If you don't accept the Archanis Four colony hypothesis, then the first contact with the Borg was in the 2350's by the SS Raven. The SS Raven was sent on a mission of exploration and intelligence to gain information on the Borg. The Federation knew of rumors about a cyborg species that assimilatied species and gathered technology. When the SS Raven failed to report in, the SS Raven was reported as missing and the Federation was left sifting through rumors.

Several years later, in 2363, the USS Tombaugh was on a mission when she was confronted with a Borg ship and assimilated. The circumstances of this confrontation are not recorded.

The history of the Borg and the Federation after 2363 is recorded in three sets of records: TNG, DS9, and VOY.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

BORG DATE CONTINUED

JULY 2373 War with Species 8472 declared after 4 Borg Cubes are destoryed after entering fluidic Space. A Surviving cube escapes but fails to close a quamtum signalarity. Species 8472 pour into the Delta Quadrant:-This area some 3500 light years long later becomes known as the NorthWest past.

November 2373 Borg launch invaison of Earth. A Cube is sent to Earth with the Borg Queen onboard (She is sent their to protect her from Species 8472)Federation battle them for 10 days after which they are defeated near Earth. A Sphere emerges from the Cube, it's pursued at Full Impulse by Enterprise-E. It opens a temporal vortex and plunges in.

*April 2063* Borg Sphere begins firing at North America. Enterprise-E destroys Borg Sphere. Borg beam aboard and begin assimilating ship. They assimilate 11 out of 26 decks. Borg kidnap and alter Data. Borg finally defeated after Picard and Data trick Borg Queen. Ship freed and returns to 2373.

December 2373 Borg Drone Seven Of Nine is severed from collective. War with Species 8472 ends as they retreat from North West Passage. They are beaten by weapons created by the Crew of Federation starship Voyager.

August 2374 Contact with Alien vessel with a quamtum slipstream drive. Star Trek Voyager:-Hope and Fear.

February 2375. Contact again with Voyager:- Star Trek Voyager:-One.

November 2375 Contact again with Voyager near Borg Space. Recapture Seven of Nine. Delta Flyer with Janeway,HoloDoc and Paris and Tuvok rescue Seven with aid of stolen Transwarp coil. Star Trek Voyger:-Dark Frontier

Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :

That's a nifty list there...but the borg queen can be in any of the cubes at anytime, correct? Sort of an etheric over presence, a guiding force to the vast collective, at once every where yet no where...a really evil gnutella program.

Nah. Picard kicked her ass with gas. Is that irony?

I'd bet there's some sort of "ghost" Data still inside the collective somewhere...some vague synaptic impression left over from queenies brief romance, a painting of lost positronic love. And maybe one of Lor as well. Was he hooked up to the collective? I don't remember.

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Between the idea and the reality, comes the Shadow

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

targetemployee: Q didn't fling the Enterprise into the domain of the Borg, he simply threw them in the path of a Borg vessel headed for the Alpha quadrant. I don't think 7000 lightyears would necessesarily put them in the Delta Quadrant from where they started out (of course it depends on where they were when Q grabbed them). What was the next ep that they had any dealings with other Starfleet vessels or stations?

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Q flung the Enterprise into a Path of A Borg Cube. The Cube was 7000 light years from the Federation in system J-25. The systems location is in the Deep Beta Quadrant. Voyager's flight path home will bring it close to the syatem but will avoid it as the system will be 1000 light years away as Voyager passes. Voyager if it uses another Transwarp coil will be 10550 light years fro the Federation will be 3550 light years from system J-25

[This message has been edited by DARKSTAR (edited January 12, 2001).]

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Sorry pal. But the Federation is some 10 000 ly in from the boundary of the galaxy. Add a couple of thousand to that and you'll have the inner border of the Federation. (The section closest to the galactic core). If they were launched 7000 ly the only places they could have gone would have been in the AQ or BQ. Writers fupped up. Yet again.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Since it seems to be all the rage these days, here is my Borg timeline.

Some of its problems:

It is not complete.
It has not been spellchecked.
Some of the writing is bland or confusing.

At any rate, it's part of the Borg page I've been promising for, like, ever. Tell me what you think. Savage it to pieces, I suppose.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You know, it's possible that the original Borg species wasn't even humanoid. Could they be THAT old? If they originated in another galaxy, then they'd have to have been non-humanoid, due to that whole plot about the first humanoids seeding the galaxy.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Well, the Kelvans looked like humans and they were from Andromeda...

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Two atoms walk into a bar. One atom says to the other atom:
"I've lost an electron!"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive!"

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

The Kelvans' humanoid appearance was not their true form. Spock said their true form had something like 100 arms.

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"The only good thing about this film is the edible chocolate roaches they gave out. Mmm, mmm... Wait a minute, edible roaches don't crawl. Edible roaches don't crawl!"

- Jay Sherman, The Critic.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Oh. Musta missed that line.

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Two atoms walk into a bar. One atom says to the other atom:
"I've lost an electron!"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive!"

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

Hey, Dr Bashir, stop following me around!!!

I find you at the Sev Trek board, then you show at the Trek BBS, now here? Stalker.

Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :

LOL! I came here thanks to the Utopia Planitia 3 project. It was... just a coincidence, TLE

Regarding the Borg, there is a nice information source written for the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek Role Playing Game by a fan, Mark Brenton. It's in PDF format, and you can get it from http://www.online.emich.edu/~brenton/borg_rough.pdf . It's a draft, and the guy will update it in like half a year, but it has interesting ideas inside.

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Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, No escape from reality

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Web Page Unavailable ring a bell?????

Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :

*checks link*

Hmmm... I wonder what happened.

Nevermind. Anyone that wants it mail me at [email protected] and I'll be glad to send it by email. It's a short document (not more than a MB, for sure) so don't worry abut the size.

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Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, No escape from reality