Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Sir Syndrome

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Posted by trekfan2k on :

I've noticed that on many occausions, the word sir has been used, even through the Commanding Officer was female. I just observed this on a recent episode of Voyager. Also, on TNG, when Dr. Crusher took the bridge, the officers called her Sir many times. Does anyone know why they do this.

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"You left spacedock without a tractor beam?"

"It won't be installed until Tuesday."

-Captain James T. Kirk to Captain John Harriman

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

I guess it's kindof a generic term, like when in TWOK they called Saavik "Mister Saavik".

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"Lately I've noticed that everyone seems to trust me. It's really quite unnerving. I'm still trying to get used to it."
- Garak, "Empok Nor"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

"Mrs. Crusher, report!!!"

Doesn't have the same ring to it.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

In Caretaker, Janeway said it was part of Starfleet jargon to use sir when addressing a superior officer, and she didn't like it. Ma'am was okay during 'crunch time' but she preferred to just be called captain. I can see why Janeway, as a woman, would not like to be addressed as a man. I can remember at least two times (Workforce Pt. II and one other episode) where she tells Paris to engage, and he says "Yes sir." I'm surprised she hasn't corrected him yet.

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"Contact in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... more or less."
-Tal Celes "Good Shepard"
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7647/

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

"Ensign/Lieutenant!¹ Stop plotting that maximum-warp course away from the Borg this instant, and look at me! Now, what have I told you before about calling me 'sir?' Call me 'Ma'am' or 'Captain' or *zzzzzztt!*² aggggleaggleagglethird of twelve. Resistance is futile. You must comply."

¹Depending on when in the series you're watching.
²Sound of nanoprobes being injected, OK?

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

Point taken.

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"Contact in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... more or less."
-Tal Celes "Good Shepard"
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7647/

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

It is a military tradition for lower ranking officers to address a higher ranking officer as "sir" regardless of gender.

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Touch�.

Posted by Psi'a Meese on :

As a point of continuity, I am disappointed that Janeway's choice to be referred to as 'Captain' was not maintained throughout the series. It could be excused as another example of the disorder of Voyager over the years. But once contact with Starfleet had been re-established, getting back in touch with Janeway's command style was appropriate.

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Not to mention the uniforms.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Mark:
Good point on the uniforms. Starfleet can now download teraquads of data to Voyager (enough for a complete holomatrix of Barclay). How difficult would it be to download the patterns and color swatches for the new uniforms?

Great Ghu, I hate the Voyager ones... Everyone looks like my mechanic.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by trekfan2k on :

I like the Voyager uniforms, but anyways, they probaly can send Voyager the patterns, but something tells me they're more concerended with getting home, then keeping up with the new uniforms. Replicating all those uniforms would just be a waste of rations.

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"You left spacedock without a tractor beam?"

"It won't be installed until Tuesday."

-Captain James T. Kirk to Captain John Harriman

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Waste of energy definitely, but I think it's also been a choice they've made. I guess I always thought that Janeway just decided to keep the uni's because it was like their "family thing" or something.

"This is the uniform I started out with and this is the one I'm going to finish with."

In reality, the paowers that be probably don't want to risk confusing people who never saw DS9 or the movies.

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"You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ole' Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Er, I don't think that they've gone back on her preference not to be called "sir" at all. I'd say it's just in Paris' character to push things, to see how far he can get. He's calling her "sir" partly in sarcasm, and also because he knows that she hasn't got time to correct him. He'd do it just enough to wind her up a bit, but not enough that she'd tell him off for it.

And surely it's suppossed to show equality anyway? One term for both males and females. While "Mr. Saavik" did sound a bit weird, I've never thought that calling female officers "sir" was strange. Janeway's probably an old fashioned feminist who hates all men and wears dungarees. That's what being stuck with Chakotay for 7 years will do to you.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

Well, in the British forces, you'd certainly get bawled at for calling a female officer "Sir" rather than "Ma'am" or her rank.
Still, I suppose Starfleet isn't as strict as modern militaries in that regard.

But a male officer sure as hell wouldn't appreciate being called "Ma'am"!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Time to drop the big one...
How about giving women knighthood? Surely they can be formidable fighters, in the "medieval knight" way, and they can do for their country what other nobles have...

Is there any country besides England that uses knighthood? Has there ever been?

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Here lies a toppled god,
His turnip not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"You fight w/ the strength of many women, good madam knight."

Nah... Hasn't got the same ring to it...

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-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic

Posted by Psi'a Meese on :

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And surely it's suppossed to show equality anyway? One term for both males and females. While "Mr. Saavik" did sound a bit weird, I've never thought that calling female officers "sir" was strange. Janeway's probably an old fashioned feminist who hates all men and wears dungarees. That's what being stuck with Chakotay for 7 years will do to you.
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I understood equality of the sexes to be more along the line of mutual repect. On that thought, military or not, shouldn't the person be awknowledged for the person they are? The men establish what those terms are for the men. The women establish those terms for the women. Both sexes agree to utilize those terms for mutual cooperation in any environment.

Another similar issue revolves around the use of he/she in interpreting rules of RPG books. An excellent letter, IMO, written by a female on this topic, is in the FEBRUARY issue of DRAGON Magazine.

I may be wrong, but everyone posting to this thread is male, so "sir" is more comfortable. I am actually curious to hear what a female perspective on this thread might read like.

[This message has been edited by Psi'a Meese (edited March 09, 2001).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Since I am not now, or ever, likely to go and buy Dragon Magazine, what was the letter about?

Personally, and irrationally, I hate books that use "he/she" all the way through. Or, worse "s/he". If they have to demonstrate political correctness (cause Lord knows the girls love rolling their saving throws as much as the next lad), then alternating "he" and "she" during the book/magazine works best. "He/she" is just so clumsy to to read.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I prefer "he/she/it". If you're going to promote equality, you may as well go all the way, eh?

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

We've got knighthood in the Netherlands.
I guess women can get knighted. Why wouldn't they?
[ painful remark ] I mean, Elton John was knighted as well, wasn't he? [ /painful remark ]

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To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen.
The Amtal Rule (Dune)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

[This message has been edited by Prakesh (edited March 09, 2001).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The female equivalent is "Dame."

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
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Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Psi'a Meese on :

"Computer. Activate Emergency Continuity Hologram."

I just had to do that...quick someone come up with an excuse!

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Purrr...

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ahh, your new sig relieves you from having to purr us manually. "Officer"-thinking, lieutenant!

I for one think Madame is a good and non-derogative term. But Ma'am doesn't sound quite as nice. And stressing on the second syllable is just naughty.

Just rewatched "Ghost In The shell" on my new WS-TV. Asskicking girls are kewl. Except for Lara and Pamela...
Motoko holds rank of major, and they only refer to her as that. Maybe japanese gender roles are even more sexist than others.
They do have the "bondaged schoolgirl" thing...

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You can't kill me, I'm charming!