Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Hi, hon, how you want your Klingon today? Smooth or extra bumpy?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

This is just a working theory.
Klingon babies are born without the ridges on their foreheads. These begin to develop shortly after birth, and continue until the Klingon is past puberty.

The TOS Klingons were "gentically" altered by their government to repress the forehead-crest bone (cartilidge?) growth, for some nefarious reason. Perhaps because of shame they felt over the "bumps", or to make their enemies underestimate them?

Just a theory.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Alexander... he had "the ridges of a warrior" remember...

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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

I think it begs the question to be asked, where else do the Klingons have ridges at?

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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

And the Voyager folks are the perverse and sophomoric ones?

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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

At least I freely admit it and I don't do it to get better ratings for my show.

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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Then you aren't trying hard enough.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What the feck are you guys talking about? Voyager? Is this some spoiler about B'Ellana? If it is, I don't want to hear it!

Now, if the TOS-klingons were genetically altered then the procedure was probably done during the pregnancy.

So, if the fashion swings into letting ridges develop again, one needs only to stop manipulating the unborn babies genetically during pregnancy.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I was thinking perhaps that the Klingons stopped the growth by some sort of continual "injection"...

"Now, Kruge, remember that I love you and to take your bone shot today or your forehead is going to be feeling awfully raw tonight..."

::sigh:: "Yes, Valkris..."

Perhaps the Klingons ran out of this injection? It would explain Koloth, Kor, and Kang ...

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Hahahah, you think Kruge shot his own mother to smithereens?

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Valkris was his mother?!?!?!

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Once again, Pocket Books will be saving the day, non-canonically.

Unfortunately, looks as though you'll have to wait until Jan 2002 when "In the name of Honor" comes out.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

How are they going to explain it?

I'm so tired of Trek novels. Frankly, I think Ordover's a hack. They really went down the tube once he took over. I miss the good 'ole days, when Howard Weinstein's novels got liner notes by Gene Roddenberry and Michael Jan Friedman didn't steal ideas from himself (Saratoga is the exact same novel as Reunion). When John Vornholt's early novels (Masks, Contamination, Sanctuary, War Drums) were the best examples of what a Star Trek novel should be, and not dreck like his Dominion War and Rogue Saucer and Genesis Wave projects.

Rant over

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

I happen to like those last 3 projects you mentioned by Vornholt

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"Let's make sure history never forgets the name... Enterprise"
- Alternate Picard, "Yesterday's Enterprise"

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited March 25, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

If you, uh, don't like the Trek Novels, then, uh, don't read them. And spare us your rant.

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Ah, the old days of Mary Sue and "Triangle" and "Dreadnought!" and "Battlestations!" Excuse me while I hurl.

Now, We've got New Earth/Challenger and New Frontiers and the Q-Books and The Milennium DS9 Relaunch and things thaking place OUTSIDE the old tired timeframe and focus on main characters and "Stitch in Time" and "The 34th Rule" and "Diplomatic Implausibility," which is the best Klingon book since "Final Reflection." And new directions. The continuing of old fan favorites, like the Rihannsu books and the Yesterday saga. The upcoming TOS relaunch, "Lower Decks" style. Split Infinities, and finally, attempts to actually ANSWER some long standing questions like the aforementioned 'ridges' dilemma, and the 'What happened to Betazed during the war?' and 'Why didn't we see the Big-E during the war?', etc.

Lots of people bitch about loose ends... but then they bitch when someone tries to tie them up? *sigh* Some folks, there's no pleasing.

*end counter-rant*

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I read very few Trek novels anymore.

I don't mind someone writing about what the Enterprise was doing during the war, but they should at least make it a good story and not the boring wretch which was the Dominion Wars. It's not so much that I mind Pocket Books trying to answer some of these questions, it's just that I wish they'd get some fresh-blood into the program (or at least some people who can write a book and get the characters correct and not bore people half to death).

John Vornholt used to be one of my favorite authors. I loved Masks, Contamination, War Drums... and then he just went right down the tube with Rogue Saucer and he's been going down farther with each new book he "writes."

Q? Haven't we seen enough of Q? What's so good about books about Q? He shows up, torments the crew, and leaves. Wow. And no, I'm not saying the days of early TOS books were that great, but Trek's novel hey-day is long past, and that quality from then is rare and far between (thankfully, Diane Carey still seems to be one of the few Trek-authors whose quality has only grown). Frankly, the only half-way interesting novel series is the Excalibur series by Peter David, which is a bit of a fluke for him to write good Trek books -- lord knows he's messed up every other Trek novel by totally mangaling the characters and relying on sarcasm and humor to get the reader through instead of a plot*.

In short, although Pocket Books sure has a lot of interesting premise books coming out, a novel's success is not just based on it's premise, but on it's execution, and I think Pocket Books has been lacking. Hopefully they'll breathe some new life into the books, but overall, they've been lacking for quite some time now ...

Honestly. Some people see "Star Trek" written on something and assume it means good quality. Yeeesh.

*With the exception of his Excalibur- series, because he's musing ostly his own characters, and as all his work shows, Peter David does a hell of a lot better writing for his own characters than for other people's. Also, anything that came out of his imagination and not based on Trek (Howling Mad, anyone?) is also super-fantastic, but again, because they're his own characters

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 25, 2001).]

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

They should get Timothy Zahn to write Trek novels...

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"Let's make sure history never forgets the name... Enterprise"
- Alternate Picard, "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I like to read real books that aren't about television shows.

Except Roswell novels, of course. Now those are literature!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

*reads JeffK's post, cries, and then runs off to marry his copy of Vendetta*

"I like to read real books that aren't about television shows"

You also like to listen to bands that no-one's ever heard of. Doesn't make you right, Simon my lad.

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

But his penis is large. So it evens out.

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I would humbly ask the person who doesn't like Peter David's non-New Frontier books to elucidate a bit more. I love Imzadi. I, Q is a darned good read. Q Squared does parallel universes and time travel better than DS9 or Voyager. I find his representations of existing characters to be closer to the mark than many other authors can manage (Grounded springs to mind -- *yick*). Sure he makes up details from time to time where there weren't any supplied by the shows, and often when the shows get around to it, they contradict him. That's to be expected, and I don't fault him for that.

When it comes to other authors, Diane Carey is a damn good storyteller. She just needs someone who knows the timeline, physics, and practices of the universe to edit what she comes up with... Daffyd ab Hugh is really good. Diane Duane and John Ford kick literary butt. The Reeves-Stevens couple I classify with Peter David -- they're hacks, but they're good ones. *shrug* Basically, I give everything a once-over when it comes out, but I tend to stay with a few authors I know to be good at their craft. That said, I was REALLY impressed with A Stitch in Time.

And lastly, to touch on the topic of this thread...

There are so many things TPTB could have done to smooth the problem of the Klingon foreheads, but they ended up taking the absolute WORST route. The DC graphic novel "Debt of Honor" used one of the common fandom explanations -- that there are two (or more) visibly distinct races of Klingon, one with smooth foreheads, and one with bumpy. Said graphic novel deals in part with the bumpy-heads gaining ascendany in the high council and the smooth-heads being racially discommoded. And Kor was trying to reverse the situation.

The other route they could have taken they even set up for in Star Trek VI. Notice Chang has very subdued, almost vestigial, forehead ridges. Note also the similarity of Chang's and Kang's names. Wouldn't it have been so easy to portray Kang, Kor, and Koloth with similar "barely-there" ridges in "Blood Oath" and not create this problem in the first place? *sigh*

--Jonah

"And everybody wants prosthetic foreheads for their real heads..."

-- They Might Be Giants, "We Want A Rock"

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
I would humbly ask the person who doesn't like Peter David's non-New Frontier books to elucidate a bit more. I love Imzadi. I, Q is a darned good read. Q Squared does parallel universes and time travel better than DS9 or Voyager. I find his representations of existing characters to be closer to the mark than many other authors can manage (Grounded springs to mind -- *yick*). Sure he makes up details from time to time where there weren't any supplied by the shows, and often when the shows get around to it, they contradict him. That's to be expected, and I don't fault him for that.

I don't mind about making up details, every novel winds up doing that (in Power Hungry, enemy ships fly off at Warp 11) and then later being contradicted. That doesn't bother me. But Peter David's work is always best when he's using character's he has created (read Howling Mad if you don't believe me). Read Exiles or War Drums or even Sanctuary for good characterizations of the TNG and TOS crew -- Peter David's books fall short, with each of our known and loved characters being different shades of the extremely sarcastic person David actually is. I haven't read Grounded Springs, but if it's like Rogue Saucer or some of the other dreck, it's one of the reasons I have stopped reading Trek novels. Go read some of TNG's earlier stuff (obviously, too early and none of the writers' have the characterizations correct, which is why Strike Zone is the best of his TNG books). Read Exiles for an excellent characterization of TNG's cast (so good, even Gene Roddenberry contributed a liner note -- something no other author has recieved). Perchance to Dream, also by Howard Weinstein, is just as good. Michael Jan Friedman's early stuff -- Reunion, for one -- also nails the characters excellently. And the characters he creates for the old Stargazer crew are remarkeably unique.

Granted, Peter David is hardly the worst of the writers. His books are generally entertaining, but honestly, there's only so much of the Q I like -- time for him to tend new fields, which is what he's doing quite well with his New Frontier stuff, IMHO. The only characterization David has hit square on the nose is Odo from The Siege -- and that's just because Odo's already bitter and sarcastic.

Imzadi is only bearable in the future timeline, where I can imagine Riker being saracastic and bitter. The "present" timeline story totally misread Riker's characterization. And, no, Riker identifying himself as "William Tiberius Riker" didn't bother me, even after Second Chances. Troi was portrayed as a "space slut", which I didn't agree with (although, in the first season she certainly did dress like one). I didn't agree with future Data's behavior as a whacko-assassin in either timeline, but this being set in the future, that characterization was fine by me.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 26, 2001).]

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I can't figure out how to do italics, but the book I was referring to was "Grounded" by David Bischoff. I struggled with it up until page forty-something. None of the characters "sounded" right. But then the thing that just made me put the book down without even finishing the SENTENCE I was on was when Picard went down to the main shuttlebay to meet a returning shuttle (I think the E was out of communication, and he was concerned) and the sentence started something like "It was agony for Picard to wait outside the bay while the doors closed and the huge space repressurized --" and that's when I threw it down in disgust.

This was novel #25, published in or around TNG's 5th season, I think. The TNG tech manual had been out for some time, not to mention what simply WATCHING THE SHOW would have demonstrated about 24th century shuttle ops... *yeesh*

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

And as for the other things, Troi WAS a "space-slut" for a lot of TNG (remember "The Price"? Remember "Masterpiece Society"? Remember "Man of the People"?). Riker WAS getting increasingly bland as the series progressed. Data WAS (prior to the emotion chip) even more of a protocol stickler than Saavik (remember Wes and Geordi talking about that in "The Most Toys"?).

As for sarcasm, what show were YOU watching?

Q: "I'm as frail and as mortal as all of you. What do I have to do to convince you people?!"

WORF: "Die."

Q: "Oh, VERY clever, Worf... Eat any good books lately?"

That's one of the best-known, but there are plenty of other examples throughout TNG's run. Granted, the most glaring examples are when Q shows up, but hey...

--Jonah

P.S. And it was THELONIOUS, not Tiberius.

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Damn. I was about to make that point.

Actually, IIRC, it was William Thelonius Riker in one of his early books, then in Imzadi, written AFTER Second Chances, it became William Thomas Thelonius Riker. Bet he hates filling in forms.

Data: Captain, I would like some advice on women.

Picard: Of course Data. When I have any, I'll let you know.

(or something like that).

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

A little sarcasm, yes. But as far as Peter David's Trek books are concerned, every character is a shade of the level of Odo's bitting sarcasm. Sorry. That turns a book off a lot more than somebody goofing about whether or not someone can stand in a shuttlebay with the door open.

Look, no one's denying that Peter David's a good writer. Just that his Trek stuff is very very bad -- he gets the characters wrong. Look, you don't like what I'm saying, tough. You ever read any of his non-Trek stuff? Then you'll see what he's capable of when he has free-reign. It's brilliant. His Star Trek work is, however, sadly below that.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Current thread 'Dreck' count: 2

And counting?

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I've read his Babylon 5 stuff, as well as the PsiMan series he wrote under the feeble pseudonym of "David Peters". He readily admits he's a hack writer, but I happen to think he's a rather good hack writer. I suppose we'll just have to shake hands and (gods, I hate this term) agree to disagree.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

Or you could take it to the flame board and beat the hell out of each other with it. Just a small suggestion. :|

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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I don't WANT the Trek books to Tie up loose ends... how desparate for story ideas are they!?!

Then all the idiots and freaks will be running around saying that it said in this book that this is what happened to Lwaxana and this is why Klingons have ridges, and then moronic writers for Trek magazines like the Fact Files will read some comment like this on the net, and then write it in the Fact Files, and then more and more begin to think its true... etc. etc. etc.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

FYI:

The Q Books I was referring to were the trilogy by Greg Cox, with the 'origin stories' of Redjac and the 'Day of the Dove' creature and 'God' from Star Trek V, not the various books by Peter David.

Still, Peter wrote some pretty good Incredible Hulk, including the classic "Future Imperfect" scenario, which was great JUST for Rick Jone's Hall of Dead Heroes.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

I like how he had Rom and Brandy at Rick's wedding.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

In klingon biology, the ridges are actually an exstention of the spine that wraps around the head.

Kahless has spines and he was way before Kirk's time.

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Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
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I don't like Wesley Crusher.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

But have you read Howling Mad? Now that's a brilliant book!

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Even if I knew where you got that, which I don't, so I'll ask, it still doesn't clear up anything about the Skinhead Klingons.

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I have a theory... and I've posted it to usenet a few times, but no one seems to respond... and it explains away Kang, Kor and Koloth, also Kahless (clone) and the conflict from his TOS appearance... and the Romulan brow... AND why the Klingons don't talk about it.

And why the ridges were not as prominent in TMP, and slowly became more prominent through the movies... big ole lumps in TNG...

Does anyone want to here it?

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

Sure. Fire away.

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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Is it that the ridges were always there, but the cameras of the 60s were so crap we couldn't make them out?

Thus, as TV (and film) camera tecnology improved, we begun to notice previously hidden details.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Naah. They just wanted to separate them from the other races back in the 80's, and forgot about continuity.
Worf's "explanation" in Tribbleations was obviously a "stalling for time" as they try and figure out some way to hide their mistake and invent a justification.

The old klingons didn't even have their big knives and bat'leths back then, it was probably also a part of the klingon cultural "upgrade" then. I don't even remember any bat'leths in ST:VI, let alone that corny salute gesture the klingon captain made in ST:V to Kirk.
That's another thing, making the bat'leth a traditional klingon weapon dating back to Kahless. Talk about making up as you go...

Oh, and why is there a spelling of the klingon sword called "Bat'telth" or similar? It sounds so illogical, totally different word.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 29, 2001).]

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

In an anthropology class once I heard about a theory for why gorillas and chimps have big jaws and brow ridges and why humans have large faces. According to this theory, humans more closely resemble juvenile apes than adult apes. Somehow, juvenile ape/human ancestors acquired the ability to reproduce and remain at a juvenile stage with juvenile characteristics. Something similar is believed to occur in the evolution of amphibians, IIRC.

This may tie in with the idea that smooth Klingons somehow derived from a juvenile stage of mature ridged Klingons or that ridge development was somehow arrested in childhood.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

I got it from a comic book actually, completely uncanon, but it makes sense.

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Wes Button � [email protected]
TechFX Studios � The United Federation Uplink �
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I don't like Wesley Crusher.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Remember Klingon society is dominated by 'families' They own seats on the council, many ships and much land...

If we didn't see many Batleths back in the movie times or even TOS, doesn't mean they weren't used... it could have been the weapon of choice at the time. Or some families didn't bother with the Batleths instead stuck with swords - like Kang in TOS... the Klingon that got stabbed by Laas in season 7 DS9 had a 'sword'. Remember Worf began to prefer the Mekleth over the Batleth.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Duras' weapon of choice in Reunion was a sword.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Because if we are to believe DS9, the Bat'leth has been the mainstay ceremony- and battlesword since Kahless built his.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Yeah, so - that doesn't mean we would have had to have seen ANY Batleths during TOS, the movies or early TNG...

All we basically saw were 'Soldier Klingons'... some had knives, some had swords... Batleths could have remained a purely ceremonial weapon until its resurgence in popularity during the Federation year 2366!?!

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited March 31, 2001).]

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Wouldn't it be fun to go back and include in the "Special Edition" treatment of TOS a reworked "Day of the Dove" with the Klingons armed with more distinctly-Klingon weaponry...?

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH