Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Evidence for Spock as first SF Vulcan?

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Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

According to Bjo Trimble's Star Trek Concordance, Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet is established in TOS episode "Whom Gods Destroy." I haven't seen this episode in about 15 years, so I don't remember this line. Does anyone has this episode on tape?

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

What, you think a little thing like continuity would stop them?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

That little line is contradicted by the Intrepid. Remember: a Starfleet ship crewed by Vulcans? I suppose its possible for another Vulcan to graduate Starfleet Academy and achieve a captain rank before Spock, but, I find it easier to pretend that whomever said Spock was the first Vulcan was mistaken.

Also, you know, c'mon people. T'Pau will most likely be a member of the Vulcan science community assigned to the Enterprise. There's no evidence that she would have to be part of Starfleet to serve on the ship -- look at Kira, or Odo -- as examples of officers from another service serving in the chain of command.

Also, if the series is set BEFORE Starfleet is established, then the problem is solved quite nicely.

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Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

Spock = first Vulcan came from where exactly? I recall it too, just can't remember why.

Doesn't seem to hold water, Intrepid (as mentioned), Admirals in the movies etc.

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TK

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Maybe Spock was the first, but like Tuvok, took a vacation, allowing other Vulcans to be promoted past him? Just a thought.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Well, how about this: early eps mentioned the Enterprise as being part of the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Maybe the Intrepid wasn't initially a Starfleet ship, but was by the time it was destroyed; or, fllowing Spock's proving that Humans and Vulcans could work together, a whole bunch of the Vulcan Defence Forces were brought over and given a Starfleet vessel to crew?

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- James Lileks, 09/04/2001

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I was thinking something along those lines, too. The Vulcans could already have been trained on Vulcan, and were given SF commissions at higher ranks, w/o going to the Academy. Perhaps the captain had been the captain of a Vulcan ship for twenty years, so they weren't going to make him start back out at the rank of ensign when he joined SF.

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Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Actually, I was thinking that the Intrepid need not be a starfleet ship at all. The dialogue doesn�t state that the ship was starfleet, does it? It could have been given to the vulcans who then turned it into a science-vessel.

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Why would a non-Starfleet ship crewed entirely by Vulcans have an English name? It it were a Vulcan ship, you'd expect it to have a Vulcan name. I suppose it could be a non-Starfleet Federation ship, though.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

I always thought Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet to graduate from SF Academy. All the other Vulcans could have been exchange officers or direct entry officers, enough experience and skills, so no academy time.

Couldn't the Intrepid be an officer exchange ship? One all-human starship crew for one all-Vulcan starship crew?

This ship could be related, Nebula-class sharship commanded by Solok, Sisko's former classmate and longtime rival. This ship was also an all-Vulan ship. Granted by 2275, all-Vulcan ships or even ships fully crewed by one species could be common.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Having a Starfleet Vulcan of higher rank than Spock doesn't strike me as particularly odd. Spock graduated without prior military training, so he probably was an Ensign at graduation day (or a Lt.(j.g.) if we go by the nice little Phase II-era idea that not only medics but also Vulcans automatically graduate at higher initial rank that regular folks).

But Vulcan could have been full of local professional soldiers at the time Spock joined - a Captain from the Vulcan Pacifist Self-Defence Nonviolent Paramilitary could have attended the Academy a few weeks later, and graduated directly as Starfleet Captain. In fact, he'd probably have possessed extraneous skills and training for that rank already.

Anybody remember MW Bonnano's little theory about the Intrepid? In "Strangers from the Sky", the background story goes something like this: Starfleet was growing annoyed at the Vulcan refusal to actively participate in Federation defence, so they took a couple of warships to Vulcan orbit and went "Give us some GIs, or else...". Vulcans shrugged and provided the crew for one complete starship running under Starfleet flag. Humans were mostly ashamed by this little exercise.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AaronAgassi on :

Perhaps the contradiction is somehow resolvable by appealing to the TNG eppisode 'A Matter of Honor', concerning the Interfleet Exchange Program.

It is established that Federation member civilizations each have their own Starfleets.

Spock may have been the first Vulcanian to serve among Humans, even if Intrepid had been already in service.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Individual starfleets for each Federation members? Not by the time of the TOS movies, that's for sure.

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-Omega, April 6

Posted by AaronAgassi on :

How sure?

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

In the movies we see numerous aliens wearing the generic Starfleet uniform, suggesting that there might be only one unified cover organization. However, these aliens are still in a minority against all the humans (or human-looking people)we see - so it could be argued that they are all "renegades" of their society, having chosen the human Starfleet instead of the local military for some untold reason.

"A Matter of Honor" is a bit ambiguous, though. The Benzite who comes aboard is wearing a Starfleet uniform, as are the other exchange officers. In contrast, Riker wears his "native" uniform when going to the Klingon vessel, and Kurn later wears his native uniform when serving on the Enterprise. So this would suggest that Benzites do not have a "native military" that would have a uniform of its own.

Nevertheless, this Benzite is a graduated Ensign, whereas we know the first Benzite was accepted to SF Academy only a year earlier, in "Coming of Age". So the situation is parallel to the dilemma of a Vulcan Captain of the Intrepid serving simultaneously with Cmdr Spock, who supposedly (yet still only noncanonically!) was the first Vulcan in Starfleet.

It seems easiest to say that both the Vulcan Captain and the Benzite Ensign graduated using a "fast-track" mechanism built into Starfleet training programs for people who have previous military training. Where the Benzite got his training is unclear, if his race doesn't have its own uniformed service - but perhaps it does, and the Benzite wore a Starfleet uniform only because he specifically wanted to pursue his Starfleet career, not just briefly visit a Starfleet vessel and then return to his native military. So the Benzite was fundamentally different from Riker or Kurn in this respect.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Anyone remember the rank of the Benzite in 'The Ship', just out of curiosity?

[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited April 25, 2001).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Hey, a good question! But since "The Ship" takes place some eight-nine years after "Coming of Age", it wouldn't be impossible for this Benzite to have applied to the Academy after Mendon and still reached a rank of, say, Lt(sg) by completely conventional means. I doubt the Benzite was a Lt.Cmdr or a Cmdr, considering that he was just a supernumerary with few lines beyond "AAAAARRRRRGHH!"...

Timo Saloniemi