Is it just me, or did towards the end of TNG (7th season)and the end of DS9, that all of the Admirals went crazy and started doing things that were against Federation/Star Fleet law? A good example of this is Adm. Pressman and the phase cloak (TNG: The Pegasus), which by terms violated the treaty of Algeron. Another good example is Adm. Leyton, who tried to initiate a coup against the Federation (DS9: Paradise Lost).
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The Star Trek magazine actually did a ststistic/pie chart on the issue.. it wasnt just at the end of those shows, they found that, statistically, a hefty percentage of admirals or flag officers seen on Star Trek went crazy or became criminals... even Kirk, when he became an admiral, ended up stealing a ship and blowing it up.
Posted by Commander Paris (Member # 119) on :
And even Voyager continued this trend: Admiral Janeway and her little trip back in time which violated the Temporal Prime Directive.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yeah, but it's a small percentage of the total number of admirals in SF. We just hardly see the sane ones because they don't do anything interesting. :-)
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
That's true. I bet that Admiral S'toyi is a really normal and well-adjusted admiral. It's just that isn't seen to be interesting since he heads up Inventory Control. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Vice-Admiral Ross seems to be a pretty cool fellow. Hope we see him (for a cameo) in Trek X.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
You forgot the admiral from ST9.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Dougherty. Don't forget Morrow, who was crazy just be sheer dint of believing that Jim Kirk would listen to him.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Or Admiral Cartwright. He participated in an assassination and the attempted assassination of the President of the Federation and the new Chancellor of the Klingons.
Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
I wonder what this shows about the screening policy at the starfleet academy? LOL
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
It shows nothing except what anyone who works in retail already knows: once you become a member of management, your DNA is recoded to become either a blistering idiot, a maniacal tyrant, or both.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
So. . . I wonder if it's something to do with the number of pips enclosed in a rectangle they have? So that, like the number of a little stars on a McDonalds assistant managers namebadge, it drives them crazy somehow?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Even Admiral Ross had ties to Section 31. But, yah...overall he's a pretty decent fellow.
My addition to the least...Admiral Reiner (sp?). Never seen, but Riker mentioned her as the head of Starfleet security, I believe, and was involved in the Pegasus coverup.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And don't forget the old geezers from the Merrick-blows-his-head-off show.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
It was Remmick, not Merrick.. and tio be fair they were under alien control.
And the Starfleet security bitch was shown talking to Picard in that ep.
I used to be a McDonald's Assistant Manager and i did go crazy for a year so your theory hold a lot of wieght.. i went sane the day i left
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That was an admiral, yes, but I don't think she was identified as Admiral Reiner.
"Security Bitch"...?
Lord...
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
The Admiral bitch I thought you were on about was Necheyev - cold as ice.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But not crazy.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:That was an admiral, yes, but I don't think she was identified as Admiral Reiner.
Yes, that was Admiral Blackwell.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
A-HA!!!!
Yah, I think Necheyev is one of the only recurring admirals we've seen who wasn't involved in a conspiracy.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And oddly enough, she was *still* the antagonist whenever she showed up...
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Unless you consider that her unforgiving stance on the Demilitarized Zone and the Treaty of 2368 caused the entire Maquis conundrum and led to the Cardassian discontent which led to them joining the Dominion and causing the largest war of all time.
In the face of that, I'd take the crazy dude with the cloaking device any day
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Unless you consider that her unforgiving stance on the Demilitarized Zone and the Treaty of 2368 caused the entire Maquis conundrum and led to the Cardassian discontent
Um, that was the result of policy by the Federation Congress that is her job to uphold as Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet (or at least, one of them).
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
but she was a bitch!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Federation Congress?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
There are lots of bitches in the world...doesn't mean that they're crazy or conspiracy-mongers...
I think he meant Federation Counsel.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Council, Congress, Orgy, whatever.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Hmm...Alynna Nechayev as CINCFLEET...THERE'S a thought I never had.
For the record, she was WAY hawt. I bet she was a fuckin' FIREBALL in bed, yo.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
She wasnt a fleet admiral.. just a regular no prefix admiral
quote: I'm a bitch, too
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
HAWT, I tell you. And she was promoted in 2370--VADM to FADM.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
She was promoted past regular admiral? Its between vice and fleet. I dont think we ever saw her with four-pips (fleet admiral)
[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Mention was made in one of the episodes that Picard & Co. had to be extra-super nice because she'd just been promoted ...
... to Fleet Admiral.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Oh my.. yes i recall quite clearly now.
Oh, um, that Admiral Kennelly was a bad guy too.. bad admiral!
Posted by Mr. Christopher (Member # 71) on :
I wonder how many good flag officers there were... I think that Commodore Mendez guy was pretty level-headed. Along with Commodore Stone. And Fleet Admiral Shanthi.
[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Mr. Christopher ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Assuming the 7th Fleet was commanded by the same Admiral throughout the Dominion War: ok first he lets 95% of his Fleet get wasted, then he gets caught flat-footed when the Dominion moved on Betazed. By god, I hope it was not the same guy.
Who was that Admiral that had Eddington sabatoge a the Defiant? That seemed rather un-Starfleet.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I guess we should also point out that all (I think) of the corrupt flag officers we've seen in Starfleet have been humans. Not very reassuring for our species, huh? However, I can think of two admirals that seemed to be highly respected and above corruption: Bill, the C-in-C from The Undiscovered Country, and Nogura, from The Motion Picture. Of course, I gleen most of this from the novelizations of those movies.
In real life, there's a perfectly acceptable explanation for the high occurence of corrupt admirals: it doesn't move a story as much to have an admiral appear in a manner that doesn't quite advance the plot. Corruption and mystery stories are usually good, and we have those playing out in "Conspiracy," "Ensign Ro," The Undiscovered Country, and others. The other times we've seen an admiral is to inform us the viewers of plot points as in "Chains of Command" or some of the Dominion War briefings in Deep Space Nine.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
It should point out that the Admirals we saw in "Conspiracy" had been inhabited by foreign entitites. They're hardly evil, just "hostages" ...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Also, some admirals were shown to be highly supportive of our heroes. Shanthi from "Redemption" was later considered to be the gal Picard could rely to sort out the "Pegasus" mess. And the black guy from "The Defector" et al, whose name I forget, seemed to be a nice guy, too, in the drill sergeant sense of the word. Picard wouldn't take that toughie-talk from a man he didn't respect.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Admiral Chekotay who appeared on a few occations in the early eps of DS9 seemed to be a good guy. Even though he did order Sisko to abandon the station in the "Homecoming" Trilogy.
I think it was Toddman or Toddwell or something that ordered Eddington to sabotage the Defiant.
And we did see a Bolian Admiral involved in Admiral Leyton's conspiracy on Earth during "Paradise Lost", I think.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"For the record, she was WAY hawt. I bet she was a fuckin' FIREBALL in bed, yo."
I am disturbed on several levels. Going into the problems with "yo" alone would take hours.
"Even Admiral Ross had ties to Section 31. But, yah...overall he's a pretty decent fellow."
Of course, the problem with putting Ross into this catagory is that all the crazy mad admirals who wanted the Federation to be filled with potatoes had something Ross didn't. Let's call it "a personality".
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Exploring outside of filmed canon into the world of comics and novels reveals many more cases of this Vice-Admiral Rittenhouse tried to use his new dreadnought compined with careful political appointments to take control of the quadrant ('Dreadnought!').
Admiral Mendez (Commodores brother) was involved with biowarfare experiments and killed good Admiral Waverleigh to keep his vampires secret ('Bloodthirst').
The Commodore in 'Traitor Winds' killed Mark Piper to keep some klingon disruptor shit secret, but was luckily outranked by recently admiralized Jim Kirk
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Hey, wasn't Mark Piper the Enterprise's CMO during "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yeah. For some weird reason, fanfic has taken a liking to killing him in myriads of imaginative ways in order to make room for McCoy...
And oddly enough, fanfic (at least the male-written kind, over at alt.startrek.creative) typically portrays Admirals as likeable fellows with whom Kirk is on good terms, even if there's some politicking going on in the higher echelons. Shades of the kind of alter-ego writing that made "Commodore Wesley" a supportive senior friend of Kirk's?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think I'm missing something. How was there "alter-ego" writing with Commodore Wesley? Was he a friend of the writer, or am I missing something hugely obvious?
Besides, he wasn't much of a friend. He made a nasty joke to Kirk that made him walk off the bridge crying. Bad man. Just because he had a big chair.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, an older fatherly figure who's as smart as the hero is a typical "Marty Sue" for male writers, and Eugene Wesley Roddenberry would definitely have appreciated the good Commodore. Roddenberry had plenty of characters named Wesley in his various shows, filmed or flopped, and people writing these highly analytical books about Trek tend to see at least the Commodore and the little Crusher kid as GR alter egos of sorts.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Wesley is Gene Rodenberry's alter ego?
*shudder*
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Wesley is Gene Rodenberry's alter ego?
*shudder*
*screams, tries to run, trips over bodies of dead Flare members*
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
*gets kicked by frantic David*
I'm not quite dead yet!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Actually, I'd heard about the Wesley Crusher alter-ego bit, but I'd completely missed the clue in Commodore Wesley's name. Silly me.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yes, you are. Very much so. Go watch "Buffy" ...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Damn you and your cruel punishment Jeff! I'd better watch myself, or you'll be forcing me to watch porn next.
Regarding Nechayev. She was called a Fleet Admiral in (I believe) Journey's End. When Picard made her tea. Her pips though never changed. Whenever she appeared in TNG or DS9, she had three pips in a bar (And that includes The Search Part 2, which would be her last appearence in Trek, I believe. Although that was all in the crew's mind anway. But even in just TNG, she never changed rank insignia).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Maybe Fleet Admiral wasn't a rank but a position.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Or her promotion had been on the most recently-announced list & Picard was congratulating her on it, but she still wore the 3-pip box of Admiral becasue the new rank hadn't taken effect yet.
Pictures of Fleet Admiral Shanthi's neck, anyone?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The Vulcan fleet admiral in 'Rules of Engagement'
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Except Nechayev was again referred to as "Fleet Admiral" in The Search Part II, and possibly also in "The Maquis" and in both cases again wore three pips. The implication in both those circumstances plus "Journey's End" was that she was the Starfleet admiral responsible for coordination all activity in the Cardassia region.
Shanthi wore three, as did Admiral Nakamura (who I have a vague recollection of being referred to as Fleet Admiral in one of his appearances)
My thinking is that Fleet Admiral may indeed have morphed over two hundreds years of history from a rank to a position of sorts that would be the equivalent of "supreme commander of the Pacific fleet" in the US Navy (or whatever the technical term is). Thusly, Vice Admiral Shanthi was in fact assigned as Fleet Admiral for operations along the Klingon border and environs, and Vice Admiral Nechayev was asigned as Fleet Admiral for operations along the Cardassian border and environs. Indeed, you could even extend the logic and say that at some undisclosed time, Vice Admiral Ross who took over Nechayev's position as Fleet Admiral for the Cardassian border (though he was never referred to as such) and was therefore the Starfleet commander-in-chief on that whole front of the war despite being a fairly typical Admiral sort.
The "real world" explanation is that it seems that the costuming department has drawerfuls of three-dot admirals pips and only a few doubles and quads. I mean, honestly, how many four-pippers have we seen? Admiral Riker in AGT... and, well, um...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
In "Gamma Quadrant", I theorized that the top ten admirals in Starfleet held the rank of Fleet Admiral, and oversaw various operations of Starfleet. Of these, a sumpreme commander was chosen by the Federation Council -- on a 2-year term -- to outrank his/her/it's fellow Fleet Admirals.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I always thought that the position of Fleet Admiral came with a Fleet.
The Federation is hundreds of light year across, maybe Nechayev's new pips never quite caught up to her. Speak volumes for Starfleet bureaucracy and postal service, wouldn't you say?
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:The "real world" explanation is that it seems that the costuming department has drawerfuls of three-dot admirals pips and only a few doubles and quads. I mean, honestly, how many four-pippers have we seen? Admiral Riker in AGT... and, well, um...
The first Rear Admiral we ever see wears four pips (Dr. Bashir I Presume).
Apparently Rear Admirals outrank Fleet Admirals.
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
I believe the United States Navy has itself phased out the rank of Fleet Admiral.
I once heard that the only reason the United States military ha-s/-ad five star ranks is so the highest ranking American military officers would not be "outranked" by European Field Marshals, which were worked out to be a "five star" rank, which, at the time, we did not have. Anyone else heard this?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obi Juan:
The first Rear Admiral we ever see wears four pips (Dr. Bashir I Presume).
Apparently Rear Admirals outrank Fleet Admirals.
Erik Pressman wore two-pippers in "The Pegasus" and was referred to as "Rear Admiral."
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
Based on Admiral Pressman, it would seem we finally get some semblance of the "Admiralty" rank system by the end of "The Next Generation. Fortunately "Deep Space Nine" and "Voyager" revert to the "every admiral is a 'three-pip' admiral" system.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I heard that 'five star' flag officers only exist in times of war.. not sure if thats right
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The first appearance of a rear admiral was Kirk in TMP-TVH. The first rear admiral in TNG was Brand IIRC.
I think we saw 4 admirals with 4 pips (Riker, Bennett, T'Lara, Paris). Paris had 3 pips in VOY Persistence of Vision, 4 pips in VOY Pathfinder, and again 3 pips in VOY Inside Man.
Admirals with the rank of Fleet Admiral only appeared in the movies (eg. Morrow, Cartwright, Bennett, "Bill").
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Owen Paris was demoted? Maybe the Pathfinder incident with Reg Barcley did it.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or then the Starfleet Laundry Division belatedly realized that this was the OTHER Adm. Owen Paris, not the one we saw in the second season, and that they had been sending him the wrong pips for the past weeks. Perhaps the earlier-seen Adm. Owen Paris had been promoted to a four-pipper, unlike the later-season one, and SFLD had not looked at the picture accompanying the promotion notification?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Or Starfleet Laundry mistook the second-season Admiral Paris for Admiral Marcus Holt from 'Interface' because they were played by the same actor
Morrow in TSFS and 'Bill' (called Bill Smillie in the novel of TUC) were clearly identified as the commanders-in-chief of Starfleet. Bennett in TFF seems to have been a pop up on the viewscreen admiral, not the c-in-c, and i would question if Cartwright was c-in-c in TVH, unless he had relinquished to position 'Bill' in TUC. They were all the 'fleet admiral' rank though, but i doubt they all held that position.. unless it has a term limit and you go back to regular fleet admiralcy after a while.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Quote: Except Nechayev was again referred to as "Fleet Admiral" in The Search Part II, and possibly also in "The Maquis" and in both cases again wore three pips.
What a lot of people may not realize is that there is a lot more to the uniforms than what we see. I believe Nechayev was wearing the Starfleet issue Fleet Admiral's pleather bustier (with the requisite four pips) beneath the uniform .
Kind of lends a whole new meaning to Vice Admiral, huh?
Oh, just be glad I didn't put up the pic of Adm. Paris in same...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight after seeing that picture.
Of course, I always did think she was kinda hot.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Oh dear gawd! *tosses himself out an airlock*
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Well theres how she got the promotion.
'Bill, where's Fleet Admiral Johnson?'
'He just saw something ungodly and threw himself out an airlock. We'll need to replace him.'
'OK, promote Alynna. She's in the office already, see?'
'Why'd they put an airlock in the fleet admiral's office anyway?.. seems a little odd, or at the very least inconsistent with Starfleet design'
'What are you, the continuity police? Let's just say its classified and leave it at that..'
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:The first appearance of a rear admiral was Kirk in TMP-TVH. The first rear admiral in TNG was Brand IIRC.
Because of the inconsistant usage of flag ranks (pips, stripes, and thingamabobs), I was using the actual onscreen verbal identfication of a Rear Admiral as my criteria for the first appearance. I know that Kirk was not stated to be a Rear Admiral. Was Brand?
quote: Erik Pressman wore two-pippers in "The Pegasus" and was referred to as "Rear Admiral."
I remembered that he was a two pipper, I had not caught that he was called an Admiral's Rear though.
[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Obi Juan ]
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
An admiral's rear! (Ha ha!)
Anyway, have we ever seen a five-pipper? How do we even know they exist based on onscreen evidence?
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
No and we don't.
Fleet Admirals are canon but their five pip insignias are not.
